LSE vs Saint Andrew

[gloryshe]

i strapped with the dilemma of having to decide between LSE and Saint Andrews for undergrad international relations. My brother currently studies at LSE and he has been convincing me to go there on the basis of its reputation and standing. However, i am not convinced that LSE is better than Saint Andrews, at least for the subject i intend to read. I hailed from a small nation of the south east asian peninsular - Singapore, Saint Andrews isn't as well-known as LSE and thus i naturally have a parochial view of Saint Andrews despite the forums i've read.

Can anyone convince me that Saint Andrews is truly as good as some forums claim? How does SAint Andrews compare with LSE in terms of employability and reputation.

[Guest]

Don't go to London, its a fucking hole.

[Hennessy]

Don't go to London, its a fucking hole.

Seconded. I'm a Londoner born & bred.

[J0s Dad]

Coming from Singapore you really need to consider the urban environment you will feel comfortable in.
St Andrews is remarkably well equipped but it is a very small town (about 18000) with only 25000 or fewer in the 400 square kilometers round it. It is, in a word, isolated.

My daughters grew up in Hongkong (a sort of unsophisticated Singapore). Jo was very happy at St Andrews (although she did her master's in London). Her sister, Susan, went to a St Andrews open day, loved the town, the academic environment, found the course was precisely what she wanted to do, but felt (I think correctly) that she could not cope with being in such a small bubble and went to Bristol instead (she, also, did her postgrad degrees in London).

In short, if you do not need the big city environment, the teaching, pastoral care, environment, etcetera in St Andrews are excellent. You will meet the faculty, from Principal down (and the Rector and Chancellor) in the street and they will generally be happy to talk to you. If, however, you need the bright lights, St Andrews is not the place for you (although they have turned on the Christmas light!), and, if you are not happy, your academic work will suffer.

[2009 IR Alum]

Hello!

I am not the ideal person to ask, but I suppose I can be of some help here: did my undergraduate in IR in St Andrews (and got a first, hurrah!) and I am now doing a one year Masters at LSE (in Politics and Communications, part of the Media Dept, but I do have a friend who did IR in St Andrews and is doing IR at Masters level now at LSE). Sooo, comparison...

The person who wrote before me about small towns is right. It's definitely something you should consider. However, having said that I can tell you that I got SO much more than I expected out of a 'small town'. Some of the best friends I will ever know, some of the most amazing experiences, and, academically, fewer superfluous distractions and certainly, when you socialise in St Andrews, you can very easily make it home to do some work.

But, having said all of that... if you don't mind the small town...St Andrews is the clear choice! IR was absolutely marvelous to study there, and certainly is viewed as being as prestigious, or more so, as LSE. I think last year the IR dept in St Andrews came second to Oxford and LSE came third. Really what this should show you is that in terms of prestige it's a matter of minuscule degrees.

I think the important thing to consider is what kinds of things you are interested in. One of the drawbacks of LSE will be that they have so many postgraduates that you will not get as much attention from professors. A similar consequence of the postgrad thing is that in St Andrews, the comparative lack of postgrads enables you to get internships with some of the prestigious 'centres for research' the school runs. I did an internship with the Centre for Study of Terrorism and Political Violence and ended up working with Prof Alex Schmidt (formerly head of the UN Counterterrorism Unit in Vienna). So you have more of a chance to interact with the subject and really grow in your abilities.

I would also consider what you're interested in. St Andrews is quite famous for its work in terrorism and political violence, but equally, many of the professors work in war studies and have regional specialties. I found academics very willing to help with papers and meet during office hours for discussions. LSE has also been good for meeting with professors and discussing ideas, but I feel that may be a product of my being a postgraduate student on a small course.

The courses are both very very different! I quite liked having the 4 years instead of 3. I think it really allowed me to get a grasp on who important thinkers were in the field, why they might be important, and a more broad-ranging view of the field as a whole. Also, in St Andrews in year 1 and 2 you get lectures from ALL of the academics and so when it comes time to choose courses, you know which professors you connected with/understood and what subjects you're interested in. I really enjoyed my year 3 and 4 classes because the professors were just so fascinating. Have a look at the honours level courses and see if any of them grab you. (Also, some of my IR friends HATED year 1 and 2, and it can get a bit tedious, but they all agreed that it paid off in years 3 and 4). You also get an interdisciplinary edge by taking other subjects in year 1 and 2 (If I had it to do over, I would have taken a language then).

Incidentally, St Andrews has exam re-sits, which LSE does not (and LSE is more exam based, so think about whether you do well on exams...at the end of the year, not the semester, even if the class is only 1 semester)

The library must be mentioned. Abysmal in St Andrews. Excellent at LSE (almost too excellent, overwhelming you with resources). I overcame this in St Andrews by asking professors if I could borrow the books in their offices and for suggestions of articles and books to read (often photocopying). But it is a big selling point for LSE.

In terms of substantial discussions with people on my course...at LSE we talk about course material a lot in class, but not really outside of it. In fact, making friends in the dept and around school is much more difficult because it takes so much effort to go and see them. This is not a problem I had in St Andrews where discussions could be found regularly in Taste (a coffee shop) and the pub (all of them). I also had a good mix of friends both from my course and outside of it. One of the things you read about St Andrews is how they have the highest rate of student happiness. This is no accident. It's all about the excellent environment provided by a close-knit town and very open and interesting minds. LSE certainly has more diversity, but at St Andrews diversity in experiences abounds (even if it takes some work to construct a thoroughly ethnically diverse group of friends) That being said, at LSE, I've found that people group together a lot around ethnicity, so perhaps it's diverse in numbers but less so in social groupings.

Finally, I would say that you sound like a dedicated student, and, to be quite honest, any course can be excellent or average depending on what you put into it. I think if you really throw yourself into the subject you can truly enjoy it and get the most out of it anywhere. My experience has been that if you do some extra reading around your subject or get really into an essay and then talk about it with a professor they'll have a large amount of respect for you and really want to talk to you about your work, no matter where you are. So I suppose it's all really up to you!

And in terms of social life, that's insanely important for being happy. I think university is very difficult in terms of a life transition, and I think the smallness of St Andrews really helped me with that. It was very easy to form intimate relationships with friends (not like ooooohh kind of relationships, I mean friend relationships), you meet very interesting people, and you don't have to contend with a lot of big city things (and I'm originally from a decent sized city) like public transport, where to buy clothes/food/housewares... It just makes your life simpler so that you can concentrate on university and friends. That, I loved.

I have written far too much. I hope it helps a little!

(Just re-reading this and realising that I clearly liked St Andrews much better! So much for weighing them up equally!)

[gloryshe]

thanks everyone who contributed, it has really helped me make my decision: Saint Andrews! special thanks to 2009 IR Alum, just from reading the article i can infer how much you enjoyed the school and the experiences you had, i hope my time there would be equally fulfilling! Enrolling next year for international relations and cant wait for august when i finally get to head over to scotland... Merry xmas and happy new year!