The union in general

[Grandpa]

and while we're on it...lots of you seem to know the history of the place, but no one actually knows what people do. go, ask, in person.

I have mentioned a number of times on this website what people could do to make their lives easier. I am ignored mostly, however, due to my brash style and the fact that I just head straight on in and tell people (I know that).

But seriously, if people would stop and listen, and not be afraid to face up to criticism (and thus learn what they need to do about things) a lot more would get done.

That shambles called the src, for example, would now be effective if they would try listening instead of revelling in their self obsessed, mismanaged bureaucratic mess that is the union.

For example, the DoR does nothing with new rep.s. I can tell you that from first hand experience.

He preoccupies himself with issues of national importance ranging from the absurd to stuff that might affect us.

Conseqeuntially we are left in a situation where the budding young politicians of the future are left having no idea what they are meant to be doing, where help is offered and never given and what should be a representational department is just a talking shop where bugger all gets done.

Oli, the good guy that he is, needs more people working with him. The union website is , frankly, a mess, and the length of time it has been like this simply shows that he has not the time nor the willingness to get the job done.

What does the education researcher actually do?

Why are new reps/officers/etc not trained?

Why is the place a shambles - a joke to all organisational structures?

[hr]

[s]Cogitationis poenam nemo meretur, facias ipse quod faciamus suades - pax vobiscum.[/s]

[Al]

You were on the SRC, I believe. Did you bring any of these "concerns" up with that body while you were a member? However, I agree that the SRC is not effective as it could be - or has been - but the blame for that rests not on the people but on the structure. People should know what they're doing. They shouldn't need to be told what they should be doing. Why are people standing for posts the remits for which they don't understand? For example, you seem to be unable to differentiate between the responsibilites of the SRC and the SSC. But, there again, that could be a large part of the problem.

And blaming Oli is hardly fair. The website was a mess long before he took over responsibility for it. And he can only put on it the information he is given.

[Grandpa]

Actually, Al (or is it AI? I can't tell), yes, to the DoR, many times.

No result.

Bollocks to the structure. So much time is wated on that toipic it's amazing.

We should do away with the ''structure'' all together and simply get the representatives doing their jobs first. If they did that, then they would prove themselves worthy of the next step...making the structure worthwhile. But until then, there's no point playing around with bloody structure because no-one's doing anything anyway.

This place really does know how to waste time and effort. It really does.

Back last year I offered my services to the SRC in the form of being an impartial chair, now, 1 year later they have finally asked a non-union person to do it.

I'm afraid I saw this all a long time ago...but no-onbe's interested in what I have to say, so f*ck em.

Quoting Al from 19:26, 25th Nov 2005
You were on the SRC, I believe. Did you bring any of these "concerns" up with that body while you were a member? However, I agree that the SRC is not effective as it could be - or has been - but the blame for that rests not on the people but on the structure. People should know what they're doing. They shouldn't need to be told what they should be doing. Why are people standing for posts the remits for which they don't understand? For example, you seem to be unable to differentiate between the responsibilites of the SRC and the SSC. But, there again, that could be a large part of the problem.

And blaming Oli is hardly fair. The website was a mess long before he took over responsibility for it. And he can only put on it the information he is given.

[hr]

[s]Cogitationis poenam nemo meretur, facias ipse quod faciamus suades - pax vobiscum.[/s]

[Grandpa]

Actually, Al (or is it AI? I can't tell), yes, to the DoR, many times.

No result.

Bollocks to the structure. So much time is wated on that toipic it's amazing.

We should do away with the ''structure'' all together and simply get the representatives doing their jobs first. If they did that, then they would prove themselves worthy of the next step...making the structure worthwhile. But until then, there's no point playing around with bloody structure because no-one's doing anything anyway.

This place really does know how to waste time and effort. It really does.

Back last year I offered my services to the SRC in the form of being an impartial chair, now, 1 year later they have finally asked a non-union person to do it.

I'm afraid I saw this all a long time ago...but no-onbe's interested in what I have to say, so what more can I do?

Quoting Al from 19:26, 25th Nov 2005
You were on the SRC, I believe. Did you bring any of these "concerns" up with that body while you were a member? However, I agree that the SRC is not effective as it could be - or has been - but the blame for that rests not on the people but on the structure. People should know what they're doing. They shouldn't need to be told what they should be doing. Why are people standing for posts the remits for which they don't understand? For example, you seem to be unable to differentiate between the responsibilites of the SRC and the SSC. But, there again, that could be a large part of the problem.

And blaming Oli is hardly fair. The website was a mess long before he took over responsibility for it. And he can only put on it the information he is given.

Ok, so I see you are not a supporter of responsibility. What would you have us do? Blame the cleaners?

"Oh no, we can't blame Oli, because it's not a nice thing to do"

Oh p[lease - you think businesses run lkike this in the real world? Away from our toytown st andrews? Grow the hell up. What experience of the real world do these guys have, anyway? None - they're all still wet behind the ears straight from school or a ''gap year'' (which does something for one's character, but not a whole lot). It took me a long time to feel I had actually reached a decent level of rationality within myself before I came here, and now I wiosh I hadn't left it so late - then I could pretend at playing happy bloody families like the rest of you.

Anyhow, what I meant by willingness is that he 'cant' do it due to his already pressured timetable. I should have made that more clear.

Nevertheless, my opinion is that the website is his responsibility and as such should be taken away from him as he's not been able to get it sorted - he's had a year to do it after all.

It is clear that the website goes to the bottom of the pile...it remains un-navigateable to the extent that, again, a whole year has passed and no progress has been made...well, in the eye of the everyday student user of the website, anyhow. And by this I mean that yes, some news etc may be posted there, but the whole thing is so badly drawn out it's like slshing down creepers in a jungle in order to find what you are looking for.

[hr]

I'm right. The student/sabbatical side of the union remains a mess, a shambles, due to (I believe) no one having any sort of training for the last eon. If they had had it, they would know how to be efficient and plan and do stuff. The only thing I've seen them able to do are campaigns (mainly in the form of posters - not exactly massively time consuming) and "The Book" - which practically one guy did over this summer.

[/quote]

[Al]

You really don't know the first thing about anything, do you?

[Grandpa]

then spell it out for me.

you seem so happy to criticise, but so unwilling to offer a hand.

I will criticise, yes, but i at least wish to see things progress, and in doing so I would like to be able to offer a hand. I may make suggestions, as a result of my criticisms, and all are allowed a free call in reply, but where oh where is the use in criticism without 'advice'?

[hr]

[s]Cogitationis poenam nemo meretur, facias ipse quod faciamus suades - pax vobiscum.[/s]

[Al]

I can't lend a hand as I am not in St Andrews. I have offered advice to people. I have suggested to people where I think they have gone wrong. As I am a graduate and not in a position to stand for a post, it is the best I can do. Perhaps the reason no one listened to your ideas is simply due to the fact that they weren't very good. Did you ever consider that?

[munchingfoo]

I have to agree with Grandpa on the state of the union's website. It really is disgraceful. You could knock something up that is more functional than that in about 2 hours, max. Don't go screaming to me about it having an amazing content management system please, there is absolutely no point having a CMS if no one ever adds content, any idiot can see that.

I think that since Oli is a full time, unelected, paid member of staff responsible for this he should be made to explain fully what the hell is going on, and not just the sporadic having meeting this or getting helpers that.

Why has the union's website been shit since I came to this uni and why has the person who is ultimately responsible for it done nothing visible to change that?

If you care to expand on the non-visible work carried out in the year of your position I would be most pleased.

[hr]

I'd like to change the world but they won't give me the source code.

[Al]

If he's unelected then he doesn't have to answer to the students, does he?

[munchingfoo]

Are you being serious? You do understand the concept of a "students' union"? Actually, what am I saying, it's pretty obvious you don't.

[hr]

I'd like to change the world but they won't give me the source code.

[Al]

Do you understand the concept of staff being answerable to their manager, the PS/FC, the Students' Association Board, and ultimately to the University Court?

The fact that someone works for the Students' Association does not necessarily make them answerable to the students. It's very simple.

[munchingfoo]

Has the upper structure of the university changed in the last 8 years?

According to this document

http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/finance/989 ... Note31.htm

31. RELATED PARTY TRANSACTIONS

The University Court considers the University of St. Andrews Students' Association to be a related party due to the level of transactions between the two organisations.

This explicitly states that although the university court and the Students' Association are a related party they are specifically two separate organisations. As such, I can't see how Oli's failure to fix the associations website is a mater for the university court.

As for the others, they are all part of the Students' Association which, by it's definition, should be transparent to it's student members.



[hr]

I'd like to change the world but they won't give me the source code.

[Al]

I wasn't talking about Oli in particular but staff members in general. I agree that the Students' Association should be transparent to its members. That, however, is not the same thing as saying the staff members are - or, indeed, should be - answerable to the students.

Yes, the website could be improved. No one is saying that it couldn't. The point I made to grandpa, however, was that it isn't fair to put all the blame on Oli. He can't put on it information he hasn't been given. Perhaps he could chase up people for the information more than he has, I don't know. But the greater share of the blame must rest with the student officers who are not passing on what is necessary.

[munchingfoo]

My point still stands, he is ultimately responsible to the students' of the association.

The Student’s Association is governed by the Student’s Association Board. The Board comprises nine students and seven non students.

http://foi.st-andrews.ac.uk/Publication ... rv?id=1235

The board of the association has a student majority and therefore all members of association staff are answerable to the students ultimately.

I am not inferring that he is answerable to me but he most certainly is answerable to we the students.

[hr]

I'd like to change the world but they won't give me the source code.

[the Empress]

Quoting Grandpa from 23:39, 25th Nov 2005

'But until then, there's no point playing around with bloody structure because no-one's doing anything anyway.'

'Back last year I offered my services to the SRC in the form of being an impartial chair, now, 1 year later they have finally asked a non-union person to do it.

I'm afraid I saw this all a long time ago...but no-onbe's interested in what I have to say'

[hr]

[/quote]

You attended what, 3 SRC meetings last academic year? You antagonised Ralph Covino and a lot of other people; you asked one girl (highly inappropriately) if she had any other talents than modelling Ann Summers wear! How can you be suprised no one's really interested, your presence was hardly productive . . . Plus, Alex Yabroff and Ralph Covino were very effective Chairs last year, so I don't quite see why you needed to 'offer your services' as Chair.

As for the Officers not doing anything, I think the new Officers seem quite productive. Maybe you should request a copy of the Minutes, in which they give their various reports?

[hr]

I wish I had a river to skate away on

[RJ Covino]

Quoting the Empress from 22:33, 26th Nov 2005
You antagonised Ralph Covino and a lot of other people

Hmm, does antagonized equal "touched inappropriately" or "violated my personal space"? Perhaps, why quibble though.

I have wondered who you are for a while now, Empress. Please make yourself known to me at some stage.

Oh and "Grandpa"

The only thing I've seen them able to do are campaigns (mainly in the form of posters - not exactly massively time consuming) and "The Book" - which practically one guy did over this summer.

You couldn't be more wrong. I should know, I wrote most of the damned thing. It took the combined efforts of many people for it all to come together - and it's still a bit shit. Just because it took one person a summer to lay out minimizes the work put in by a whole host of others.

[hr]

http://www.ralphcovino.com

[Grandpa]

Quoting the Empress from 22:33, 26th Nov 2005

You attended what, 3 SRC meetings last academic year? You antagonised Ralph Covino and a lot of other people; you asked one girl (highly inappropriately) if she had any other talents than modelling Ann Summers wear! How can you be suprised no one's really interested, your presence was hardly productive . . . Plus, Alex Yabroff and Ralph Covino were very effective Chairs last year, so I don't quite see why you needed to 'offer your services' as Chair.

Yes, I attended 3 meetings in which, what, exactly went on? What was achieved and what progress was made where?

I see little 'representation'. But then again, no-one seems interested in being represented. Maybe they're big and bad enough to stand up for themselves.

And can you tell me what use an Anne Summer Party is to representation?

What is this, some sort of sex shop for wanna be politicians.

Bloody hell - no wonder no-one gets anything done, you're all obsessed with your loins!
(actually, I think I remeber the party mentioned out of context, which is enough reason for me to get confused over it...Like I said before, if you can provide a valid reason that sex toys/clothes and other accessories are for the general benefit of ALL students, then I shall stop going on about it, but if the mention of sex toys in an SRC meeting cannot be justified, then I have all the more reason to think what I think.

And, p.s., the mention of an anne summers party implies sex toys, just in case you wanted to know)


[hr]

Stop playing with yourselves, you may then get something done. But I doubt it.

[munchingfoo]

That is a rather weak implication. Not every an summers party has sex toys.

[hr]

I'd like to change the world but they won't give me the source code.

[Grandpa]

Quoting munchingfoo from 00:52, 28th Nov 2005
That is a rather weak implication. Not every an summers party has sex toys.

I'd like to change the world but they won't give me the source code.[/quote]

we/I/you digress. the union is still run by aficionados of a system that has no idea what representation actually is.

or have been trained in such matters.

which would make them untrained and ill-equipped to do what they try to do.

[hr]

[s]Cogitationis poenam nemo meretur, facias ipse quod faciamus suades - pax vobiscum.[/s]

[exnihilo]

You know that you don't actually have to be on SRC to attend meetings and be heard, right?

If you have concrete proposals for the Association, produce papers and submit them. I'm sure the SRC will be happy to discuss and to implement them if they're meritorious.

Or you could snipe on here.