3 things that would improve the union are...

[Students Association]

Actually, Beatons IS part of the Association. Quite definitely.

[harmless loony]

So let me get this straight - the question that started this thread quite clearly asked - what 3 things would make the Union better - so myself and others have given our opinion and you criticise us for it.

Jeez why ask the damn question if you can't hack it when you get an answer that you didn't want to hear (read)?

I gave constructive suggestions - get involved in already established events and encourage societies to host popular events in the Union instead of other venues in and out of Town. This would require very little hard graft from the Union.

You want another example - Glasgow and Edinburgh Unions every year host a joint Eid/Diwali party for all students from Scottish unis to attend and St Andrews Asian soc normally organises transport etc to those places. Perhaps one year St Andrews Union could host the event one weekend in conjunction with the Asian soc (as it is a rotating event between Edi, Aberdeen and Glasgow unions anyway - why not throw our Union into the ring)?

Therefore, you make better links with other unions - encourage students from other unions to spend their money in our Union building instead of their own, build up good will and the ents crew will not have to change any lighting set up in venue 1 as the big screens and lighting from the bop would suffice. The DJ would bring his own music and the dhol players plus some kind of bollywood background to play on the big screens (as happened when Bindi was hosted at the Westport).

Short of organising it for you there's not much else I can do and given that I'm one of the few alumni on this thread offering suggestions - I can't really come into the Union and do it for you (unless there is some rule allowing HLMs to take on Union positions - which I don't think there is).

Note - AGAIN no where in the post have I said cancel the bop, nowhere have I suggested that the ents crew will have to do 30 hrs of work (I know they do so much for so little credit already hence why I am suggesting an event that wouldn't require them to make that many adjustments.........)

And to make it extra easier for you - I understand that the Asian soc is hosting one of its Bindi (Bhangra and RnB) nights tonight in the Aquarium - why doesn't a Union rep go down and speak to committee members and see first hand what it is about the event that makes it a success and how that can be translated into a success for the Union?

There's a few more constructive ideas in there - feel free to use them.

[Spike]

im sure i remeber a very poular event that occurs on a friday night....oh yeah, the BOP.
people often ask for R&B in the bop, yet when we have an whole night to it no one comes (same with dance music as demonstrated by the fife park pisstake (party)).

we have a full schedule already for both venues. we have no space unless people wnat their events to be on at, say, 9am.

if you want something done along the lines of the eid/diwali party then get in contact with a suitable society and get them to make a booking or at least chatting to graeme about it, rather than being ful of useful ideas and no action.

ideas are great, plans of action are better

[Tryptophan]

Quoting harmless loony from 10:17, 13th Oct 2006
So let me get this straight - the question that started this thread quite clearly asked - what 3 things would make the Union better - so myself and others have given our opinion and you criticise us for it.

Jeez why ask the damn question if you can't hack it when you get an answer that you didn't want to hear (read)?

No, the critisism is being aimed at those who complain about how unimaginative and narrow focused the union is, yet when asked for detailed ideas of new events they all come down to the same thing...bops with a little seasoning, having just complained that the union only does one type of event, bops. What I'm trying to get people to think about is what new CLASS or TYPE of event can be hosted. We already have band events, local band events, plays, an occasional film showing, sports showings and variety shows across the academic year all admist the boppage.

I gave constructive suggestions - get involved in already established events and encourage societies to host popular events in the Union instead of other venues in and out of Town. This would require very little hard graft from the Union.

You want another example - Glasgow and Edinburgh Unions every year host a joint Eid/Diwali party for all students from Scottish unis to attend and St Andrews Asian soc normally organises transport etc to those places. Perhaps one year St Andrews Union could host the event one weekend in conjunction with the Asian soc (as it is a rotating event between Edi, Aberdeen and Glasgow unions anyway - why not throw our Union into the ring)?

Therefore, you make better links with other unions - encourage students from other unions to spend their money in our Union building instead of their own, build up good will and the ents crew will not have to change any lighting set up in venue 1 as the big screens and lighting from the bop would suffice. The DJ would bring his own music and the dhol players plus some kind of bollywood background to play on the big screens (as happened when Bindi was hosted at the Westport).

Which is fine, and there already is a linked event across local universities each year, ICE, which was held last year in v1, and may well be again ( previous year it was in younger hall). However increasing the scope of such linkages is a good point but who from glas/edin/aberdeen is going to come here unless it's for a very special reason?

Short of organising it for you there's not much else I can do and given that I'm one of the few alumni on this thread offering suggestions - I can't really come into the Union and do it for you (unless there is some rule allowing HLMs to take on Union positions - which I don't think there is).

You don't have to be on the union comittee to organise an event i'm sure. If you're so sure all of these ideas will work you could always put your money where your mouth is and run a few to see how they turn out.

Note - AGAIN no where in the post have I said cancel the bop, nowhere have I suggested that the ents crew will have to do 30 hrs of work (I know they do so much for so little credit already hence why I am suggesting an event that wouldn't require them to make that many adjustments.........)

And to make it extra easier for you - I understand that the Asian soc is hosting one of its Bindi (Bhangra and RnB) nights tonight in the Aquarium - why doesn't a Union rep go down and speak to committee members and see first hand what it is about the event that makes it a success and how that can be translated into a success for the Union?

There's a few more constructive ideas in there - feel free to use them.

There is a lot of work done by societies to gain and retain their membership, I know that as I see it from a number of societies. However, taking your westport event as an example. Assuming that everyone knew where it was, and was happy to go as long as they were allowed, would you have had enough students to justify the use of V2? Remembering that the event will have no passing traffic, and can't rely on just catching random people and hoping they'll stay. IE, how many people weren't there because they didn't leave/would have been there anyway? How many of them would be able to get to a union venue? iirc there was an asiansoc or similar event a few times in v2 last year but it left due to lack of attendance.

Again, not dismissing the work done by societies themselves, from having done it last year (aids_asia night or whatever it was titled) I'd be intruiged as to how well such events as tonights would go if external event hires were done strictly to the t&c's of a commercial equipment hire company ala tower/bbg/blacklight/warehouse. (I'm guessing that asiansoc is using union equipment, seeing as it's highly unlikely that any DJ's will have anything and the aquarium certainly doesn't)

[Students Association]

The person who started this thread, and those who have commented on it are student volunteers, and although their help is greatly appreciated in the day to day running of the Association, they aren't responsible for making decisions within the Association, and don't have the authority to speak on behalf of the Students' Association (only the President really has the authority to do that).
A lot of people who volunteer their time to help behind the scenes at the Union feel very strongly about what they do, and occasionally see criticism (constructive or otherwise) as criticism of the work that they've put in. Rightly or wrongly, this can be the case, and is often blown out of proportion by the ambiguity of the written word - especially on messageboards, where care is rarely taken to ensure that comments can't be misinterpreted.

The Sinner isn't the official method for the Students' Association to communicate with its members - that should be done via the Union website* (http://www.yourunion.net ) or by linkup emails.

So while the comments from the student volunteers who help keep the Association going are as valid as anyone else's on this board, they don't necessarily reflect the opinions or policy of the Students' Association, and shouldn't be taken as "the voice of the union".





*http://www.yourunion.net - you should all have received an email detailing your username and password. If you haven't received it yet, send an email to accounts@yourunion.net

[harmless loony]

They didn't leave venue 2 because of lack of interest - they left because the venue was too small and the Union were unwilling to support the use of Venue 1.

The Westport was ticket only - all 400 sold out before the event so there was no way of it picking up randoms passing in the street. There was also a reserve list with 370 names on waiting for tickets and students were asked to show matric cards on purchasing tickets so the majority of those there were students. In fact every single event has been a sell out - so I suggest you get your facts straight!

Actually tonight the DJ is bringing all his own equipment as he always does. He is an international DJ on the Bhangra/Hip Hop scene and certainly very well known in Asian circles.

Like I said - why don't you pop down and do some research and speak to people? I am no longer a St A student but I speak on the basis of my experiences. Surely it doesnt take much to send an email out to the heads of all societies asking them what successful events they have run and how they feel the Union could help in terms of a venue!?

There are so many ways the Union could stretch itself to bring in more variety. We have more SRC/SSC positions then we have ever had before and yet people are saying that there are not enough people to look into other ideas?

It's easy being in the comfort zone - after 4 yrs at St Andrews having time and time again suggested ideas while I was a student there and went as far as to help organise the successful event in venue 2 (it was so packed out that the speakers were moved to the corridor so people could dance there as well.....)

You can have as many volunteers as you like but a change in culture and recognition of the need of increasing variety is only going to come when the sabbaticals take an active role in seeking it. The student body is changing with it becoming increasingly international - I don't think the bop is going to be an adequate reflection of student life in St A in years to come.

Last year I went to 2 sabbatical officers to discuss the University Ambassadors and the Union working closely together so the Union could get a greater input in to the Visiting Days and perhaps have a suggestions box for prospective students to give us an idea of what their expectations are from the Union in terms of representation and entertainment. It wouldn't have taken much to organise by the Union as the Senior Ambassador team (namely myself as VP) were willing to do the leg work - but the Sabbaticals spent all year umming and aaahing that we never achieved anything with the Union in the end!

If the Union genuinely wants to change then they have to go seeking the change.

[exnihilo]

And that is a distressingly common story. The presidents and officers of so many societies and organisations in St Andrews almost all have tales of going to the Association with ideas, suggestions, or requests and getting absolutely nowhere and so going it alone. When asked what they remember most fondly about St Andrews, most graduates will talk about societies long before they'll even mention the Association - which should be an integral part of the majority's life, but which simply is not.

I sympathise with the Association's financial position, which I understand better than most, and the need to focus on the basic cash-cow events, but there is scope for improvement in any organisation. You wonder why so few people stand for positions in the Association, and why so few of them are new faces? Possibly the explanation lies therein.

[Spike]

The only event that even comes close to filling v2 is rocksoc. I highly doubt that there are 750 people desperate for bhangra and R&B music in st andrews, and if they are then they have all the R&B they need in the lizzard on tuesday nights.

Also there was a full night of R&B avaliable to them on ice dragon thursdays (which is cancelled due to lack of interest)

It doesnt matter if the DJ is the queen of sheba if noone wants to go! and as for culture as tryp has mentioned there was the International Culture Evening in venue 1 in second semester so the *lack of cultural diversity* is an invalid argument

As for the story of socs getting denied for what they need, think of the reasons why (unreasonable demands, lack of interest, too much ents time required, the list goes on) and the lack of new faces is due to most students not giving a damn as long as the regular meat market runs on a friday. it is, indeed, as simple as that!

if you want to see new events then speak to graeme hamilton who will probably be in his office weekdays 9-5. PLEASE do as we want to reprisent the student population fairly and we DO have the students interests at heart

Spike

[munchingfoo]

You know what annoys me, when we hear, "Oh, we held [insert event here] on a monday night before every exam the night after [insert ball here] just BEFORE the student loan installment and noone turned up.
And look at this bop on a Friday night the first week of student loans in the holidays after exams and it was sold out.

Well blow me, it must be because people like only the bop. I cant see any other determining factors in there :S


P.S. The fife park party was just that. It was a party for fife park residents, we just allowed others to come. 130 bands were given out and over £400 worth of drinks were bought over the bar(this is just the free ones, of course the actual figure would be much greater)

Hardly a failure.

[hr]

Tired Freudian references aside - your mother played my mighty skin flute like a surf crowned sea nymph trying to rouse Poseidon from his watery slumber!

[exnihilo]

Quoting Spike from 21:54, 13th Oct 2006
As for the story of socs getting denied for what they need, think of the reasons why (unreasonable demands, lack of interest, too much ents time required, the list goes on) and the lack of new faces is due to most students not giving a damn as long as the regular meat market runs on a friday. it is, indeed, as simple as that!

It's not a story. Don't be obtuse. It's based on many years as a student at St Andrews, four of which actively involved in the running of the Students' Association. It's not a criticism of you or the present officers, it's a statement of simple fact. Almost every society officer has a story of how the Association failed to help them out, either because of bureaucracy, ineptitude or simple unwillingness.

The "meat market" as you call it has run for most of the last twenty years, only recently have students stopped bothering to stand for elections, there's a lot more to it than you make out. The bop is not, nor ever has been, the be all and end all of the Students' Association, that's an incredibly blinkered view.

[Tryptophan]

Quoting harmless loony from 14:32, 13th Oct 2006
They didn't leave venue 2 because of lack of interest - they left because the venue was too small and the Union were unwilling to support the use of Venue 1.

There would have been a good reason for this, and i'd have a fair clue that the attitude of your approach was part of this. There is no reason to flatly deny the use of an empty venue. it just doesn't make sense. There would be some other factor involved, most likely that there were not enough people around to convert the venue to a suitable rig, or the number of people that would turn up was patently insufficant to cover the running costs of the venue. Even if there were 400 people, that is nothing for v1, and really wouldn't support the event in the long term.

The Westport was ticket only - all 400 sold out before the event so there was no way of it picking up randoms passing in the street. There was also a reserve list with 370 names on waiting for tickets and students were asked to show matric cards on purchasing tickets so the majority of those there were students. In fact every single event has been a sell out - so I suggest you get your facts straight!

what...must have been a tight squeeze in there then. and probably breaking 17 core safety and fire prevention regulations, go you. Bet you had more thermal issues in wp than ever in v2. I still can't recall any event in v2 aside from rocksoc pushing venue capacity

Actually tonight the DJ is bringing all his own equipment as he always does. He is an international DJ on the Bhangra/Hip Hop scene and certainly very well known in Asian circles.

ahh well, n/m. Out of interest, got the specs on the kit, and that of the westport too? Does it include a pair of top-end djcd players, one of the worlds foremost mixing consoles, a choice of 800 to 8000 watts of amplification, some of the world best pro-touring stadium venue speakers and a 1/4mil lighting rig, Somethings tells me not.

snippage

ahh, and here we get to the standard response to the "more variety" question. Its always "we want a.....night". So basically a standard bop, with no input from supposed host society. All you really want is your soc's name over the most popular event in st-andrews, well sorry, thats just hypocrisy. Theres nothing innovative or new in any of those kinds of suggestions. As I said, you want new, think of something genuinely new, not just a bop nouveaux/bop tikka masala or any other variation, eh. Anyhows, I've been to one of the asiansoc nights, carrying a stack of sound gear. I just hope the current DJ knows a bit more about pro-audio than last time...-10dba rca feeds...whiskey tango foxtrot. And I'm sure all 400 of you will fit in the 70 person space of the giftshop floor.

Oh, and just in case the point is a touch too subtle...if you want an event, and feel that its truely feasable, then get the word out and get it set up, eh. Don't just rely on us to run and support it for you. If it's so great then you can do it just as well as us. can't you.

merf, I started this post a while ago, the bop is just too damn distracting.

[harmless loony]

Three things I have learnt from this thread:

1. People who have spent years at the University and have served in the Union at some point or another during our time there before graduation see that change and variety is the way forward.

2. Current Union volunteers/officers do not want change

3. There will be no change and the decline of the association will continue xref: the elections.

Ok let's look as this from a different angle......instead of asking people what we'd like to see changed - why dont you tell us what you would actually be willing to change?? And if you're not willing to change then don't bother asking us to give our opinion. We want the Association to be a success, hence why we are offering our ideas. All of us - Al, myself and Exnihilo have at some point been involved in Union activity during our time at St Andrews - we speak from experience and recognise from our own times that perhaps a different approach needs to be taken.

And I have no idea who either of you two ppl are but I guess you haven't been at the uni that long hence why you don't know the history of some of the events like the rest of us alumni posters do.

Interesting how the official line from the Association has been to distance itself from your comments - does that mean that perhaps others in the Association recognise that changes need to be made?

[Tryptophan]

Quoting exnihilo from 23:26, 13th Oct 2006

It's based on many years as a student at St Andrews, four of which actively involved in the running of the Students' Association.

So exactly the same issues occured while you were in a position to correct them, yet apparently did nothing. You supposedly had four years and nothing changed. Doesn't really reflect well on your effectiveness in your position does it, nor does it give a whole lot of credance to your claims about the failures in the union. There are problems, but they are not soley centered amongst the union officers and staff, there are issues in the societies too.

[exnihilo]

Ah, so we're reduced to having a go at me personally? Any examination of my record as a society officer, as Association Treasurer and as Rector's Assessor would reveal me to have been effective in each role. Much changed in those years, not "nothing", up to and including physical changes to the building. We also actively pursued the possibility of a second site, be it as retail space or multi-functional for societies. The whole nature of society funding was overhauled and our relationship with the University Court improved dramatically.

I don't claim credit for all that on my own, of course, but to highlight that we were not inactive. Indeed, by the nature of the place it's largely impossible for one person to make change alone. Your entirely pointless post proves nothing, of course there were problems then, when have I denied it? But because there were problems then does not mean you can refuse to recognise those that exist now.

There is an element in the Association, from certain staff members downwards that nothing can change, nothing new can be tried, all risk is bad, all alteration to the way it always has been is bed. They have become adept over the years at trotting the same obstructionist arguments out time after weary time. I tell you that things can be changed, things can be improved, there is always room for both.

Perhaps you should open your eyes a little and be more willing to listen to these people who keep coming in making "unreasonable" requests instead of taking unfounded, ludicrously ignorant pops at me?

[Al]

I am not sure why you - Tryptophan and Spike - are taking things so personally. No one has blamed you for the shortcomings of the Union. No one is denying the hard work done by members of Ents and other student volunteers. Recognising the hard work and long hours put in by people doesn't mean, however, that we cannot offer suggestions for improvement. And maybe - just maybe - we know what we are talking about because we have been deeply involved in the Union in the past and seen things done a different way. Maybe even a more successful way.

[orudge]

In response to the original post:

1. A new union.
2. A new union.
3. A new union.

I shall respond to other matters when I'm less inebriated.

[hr]

http://www.owenrudge.net/
http://standrews.facebook.com/profile.php?id=37103734

[Griggsy]

Would Spike just fuck off...he hasn't got a clue. No one ever had to pay to go to Ice Dragon in Broons or the Westport (or wherever else he played). And ooh one night of R&B in the Lizard (spelt with one z, not two) - that's really sufficient.

And to whoever suggested Hoegarden on tap needs their tastebuds testing...that stuff is minging, I'd rather drink sour milk.

[hr]

'I run wild in the shadowy jungle of erotic adventures.'

[orudge]

Quoting Griggsy from 18:19, 14th Oct 2006
Would Spike just fuck off...he hasn't got a clue. No one ever had to pay to go to Ice Dragon in Broons or the Westport (or wherever else he played). And ooh one night of R&B in the Lizard (spelt with one z, not two) - that's really sufficient.

Ice Dragon was free last week when it was in venue 1, there were at most 20 people or so in there by the end of the night. Not the most successful night, to be honest.

[hr]

http://www.owenrudge.net/
http://standrews.facebook.com/profile.php?id=37103734

[Mohawk]

at the end of the day, if you don't support the union and its events, one day there may be no union, and then you'll all be saying i wish i had cared a little....

Hipocracy is a wonderful thing!

[Spike]

Quoting Griggsy from 18:19, 14th Oct 2006
Would Spike just fuck off...he hasn't got a clue. No one ever had to pay to go to Ice Dragon in Broons or the Westport (or wherever else he played). And ooh one night of R&B in the Lizard (spelt with one z, not two) - that's really sufficient.

actually the very first ice dragon thursday three weeks ago was indeed charged for. apparently someone has not done their research before making a personal attack...poor move

well, firstly the pubs did not charge because they would lose their usual custom and if they charged not as many would turn up for their love of all things R&B rather than just a social get together in a public house. we charge because we needed to recuoup the losses involved in hiring the DJs and of course the running costs of the association.

so in conclusion it appears that, i may not have much of a clue, but i do my reaserch and am clued up enough to know when i am right (unlike some people)


also, if one night of r&b isn't enough, someone has missed one of the other themes of this thread...aka..gtfo your rear end and do something about it if a) the event is so desired, and b)so garunteed to be sucessful. Basically pub != v1, pretty much everything is changed when organising a full event as from just turning up and putting a few cd's into a player in the back corner of a bar.