Home

TheSinner.net

Suggestions to improve the union

Welcome to the Union message board. Here's your opportunity to tell us what you think of what we're doing on your behalf. Enjoy! - Oli Walker, Head of Media, Marketing and Design, http://www.YourUnion.netPlease post any requests for advice (about anything) on The Sinner's ADVICE board. Ta!

Re:

Postby PurelySynthetic on Wed Dec 17, 2003 2:30 pm

This is the Union's message board though. So surely its not a waste of time. The union's website actively says this is the message board for the union. So surely you would expect to write things in here relating to your questions and queries in regards to the union?
PurelySynthetic
 
Posts: 363
Joined: Wed May 21, 2003 9:57 pm

Re:

Postby Pilmour Boy on Thu Dec 18, 2003 6:00 pm

[s]Pender Native wrote on 00:07, 14th Dec 2003:
Does anyone know if the OLd Union food place on North Street is run by the University? Cause I thought the idea was to have a cheaper place for students, but for what it sells, its actually one of the most expensive places in town (£1.20 for a wee carboard cup of coffee!)


It's run by the Students' Association.
Pilmour Boy
 
Posts: 1226
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2002 4:31 am

Re:

Postby Animal on Fri Dec 19, 2003 3:51 pm

I think the union would benefit from more communication - they should tell people what they do, and what their plans are for the future.

Of course it's not possible to detail everything that they do, but some more information would be very handy.

The union's website would be the ideal place to do this, and hopefully the new website will be more frequently updated with more information.
Animal
 
Posts: 132
Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2003 5:07 pm

Re:

Postby Slash wannabe on Tue Jan 13, 2004 12:55 pm

What are the prospects of having bands play at the union? (local or otherwise)

There was a gig at the start of last semester and it was really cool. I think if it became a regular thing it could be as popular as the bop. Sure theres rocksoc but its just not the same as a live gig. Even if gigs were held in venue 2 it would still be good, but venue 1 (providing enough people) would be awesome. I mean correct me if im wrong, is venue one not the biggest stage in st andrews that allows electric instruments?

Did anyone try this in the past and it didnt work or something?

[hr]IMAGE:www.metallica.com/images/media/albums/andjustice_img.jpg

Darkness! Imprisoning me! All that i see! Absolute horror!
IMAGE:www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~es54/images/slashlogo.gif
[i:3tscad2j]One step from lashing out at you again[/i:3tscad2j]
Slash wannabe
 
Posts: 522
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2003 7:50 pm

Re:

Postby Ben Spiers on Tue Jan 13, 2004 1:18 pm

Dear Slash Wannabe,

There have been a number of gigs in Venue 1 throughout the term already, from a free Fence Collective gig in PreSesh, Snow Patrol as the headliners later in the week, a concert in aid of Marrow, a great LiveSoc gig, etc. etc.

Venue 2 can host live gigs, and has done many times, but we have some problems with noise leaking outside. The room is imperfectly soundproofed, and it would cost a fortune to fully rectify the situation. Nonetheless, it is great for acoustic gigs, and has seen some of the best jazz players (to name but one style) in the country over recent years.

The last group to try regular gigs in Venue 1 was LiveSoc in 2000/1. As has been posted on the Sinner a thousand times, gigs go on all the time in St Andrews, but the audiences are reluctant to try anything new. Still, there are quite a few gigs planned for this semester, including the triumphant return of Tibet Aid in Rag Week [Wednesday 18th February], so keep your eyes peeled!
Ben Spiers
 

Re:

Postby RichZ on Mon Jan 19, 2004 1:54 am

Right, I know that there are things to do with the Union which aren't great, but I think people don't give enough credit to the sabs and other staff, and there's NO way that one single person would be able to do the jobs of those you mentioned, they work very hard and do a fantastic job. It is our Union and we should all be prowd of it. I know I am.

Ok it may not be open till 2:30, but what do you expect in a small town, with the Union right in the middle? Surely you realised it wasn't going to be like a big city/town before you came?

But as Ben has pointed out, bands WERE a regular thing on Tuesday nights last semester, and they were good, you must have just missed them? But Rag Week will be a lot of laughs, keep your eyes peeled.

We are currently looking into getting more projectors for inside, but I'm not sure if they'd work outside, beam not wide enough, plus what would we show? But good idea.

Anyway I'm not going to go on and on abotu everything people have said, not my place, but please do make constuctive comments, not just "It's crap - make it better!" How? What new ideas do you have?

If you want to see what was done with student money go and ask in general office, they should be able to help you, if not then point you in the right direction.

Also the Union's strategic plan is on line: http://www.yourunion.net/main/officers/strategy

And the Christmas Reports from Sabs and Officers is also online, so you can see what we've done, and what we plan to do:
http://www.yourunion.net/system/systemp ... 2003-4.pdf
Plus these reports should be in halls, it's in Chattan anyway.

Right, rant over, sorry if I have offended anyone, but things don't happen by magic, if you do feel stongly about something, then give constuctive comments (nicely) and it may just happen! Right bed calls (exam tomorrow pm! Ahhh!)
RichZ
 
Posts: 667
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Re:

Postby Rennie on Mon Jan 19, 2004 4:40 pm

The Union drastically needs changing. This is the crux of the arguements throughout the thread. Student users are dropping, bar prices are increasing (not that this is a completely bad thing - but you have to justify the increases by better services, not simple profiteering).

How to change the Union however, is a very complex and contentious issue. Firstly, the Union management (including the sabs) need to look at what is a success in this town - and not constantly compare us to other student unions in their drabness or cheapness. I feel that the management have a set idea that student unions should be 'cheap and cheerful' and this clearly doesn't work within St Andrews. We need to cater for the students, not follow outdated ideas.

Secondly, a comprehensive survey needs to be carried out throughout the university, on student opinion. This is quite easily attainable, and I aim to do this at some point next semester (SSC Trading Officer). However, incentives that people value must be offered for completing the survey - as it is likely to be long and detailed, not a 2 minute job. Also, the questions must be relevant to the union and enable us to gain an insight into what students think - not just learn which the most popular pubs in St A are.

Then, changes, and I don't mean a paint job, need to be carried out throughout the whole union. I have a few ideas myself, and other ideas have been mentioned elsewhere on this thread. The students that have already been lost to other drinking places - especially the first years who seem to have tailed off after freshers week alarmingly - need to be brought back into the union and shown that in fact, it's not a cheap shithole where you should do at the end of the night.

RichZ. It's all very well getting new projectors, but the ones already used are underused and expensive. There has to come a point where the union stops buying expensive lighting rigs and projectors and the like - we have already spent a fortune on this!! However, without the ents crew, who are volunteers, the Bop and otehr events wouldn't exist - so well done :)

A late licence is also a key area. The union, and Ben in particular has done well in gaining a 1:30 licence this year, and the predictions of local opposers to this must have been silenced - it isn't as rowdy as a 1:00 licence as people leave in small groups between 1am and 1:30am, causing less overall noise. Hopefully, with a bit of gentle persuasion, local people can be persuaded to not object to a 2am licence. That's nearly a club then!

Right, this thread has gone on for far too long. Basically, the Union needs changing, and it needs it fast before it ends up with no customers. The ideas listed at the top of the thread were all dismissed - was this because it's easier to dismiss than change? I hope not .

Edit : to add a few things missed off
Rennie
 
Posts: 855
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2003 1:51 pm

Re:

Postby NeilSJFC1884 on Mon Jan 19, 2004 5:15 pm

Sorry, but it IS meant to be cheap and cheerful. It' sa student's union and reason a lot of us go there is, unsurprisingly, because its cheap.
That obvious point aside, id also like to point out that many people seem to convey to the underlying idea that our union should be a lot busier. This is simply impossible. Were lucky that two nights, thursday and friday are busy.
And those comparing to dundee, take it from someone who lived there for 14 years, its not always busy every night of the week. And it has to be remembered that dundee has about 17,00-20,000 student population as well as a 150,000 population (not including places like carnoustie, arbroath etc) so to compare the two anyway is ludicriuos.
Theres is improvements to be made, for examples beatons etc, but i ask you to bew reasonable. And thats from someone the union fired a week before christmas!
Don't tick the void box. Yeah its labeled "Conservative" this year....
NeilSJFC1884
 
Posts: 135
Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2004 1:18 pm

Re:

Postby Slash wannabe on Mon Jan 19, 2004 6:12 pm

I agree that theres no point in comparing our union to other universities unions.

Alright if there were gigs then they couldn't have been very well advertised because the only proper gig i've know about is the one away at the start of term ie Spyamp etc. I sort of heard of "gigs", charity events after they took place of which i dont quite consider proper gigs. Im all for charity and all but its just not the same as having a gig for the hell of it or a regular set.

So maybe if gigs are going to be held they should be regular so people that go to one are likely to go to the next one.

[hr]IMAGE:www.metallica.com/images/media/albums/masterofpuppets_img.jpg

Time for lust, time for lie
Time to kiss your life goodbye
Send me money, send me green, heaven you will meet
Make a contribution and you'll get the better seat
IMAGE:www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~es54/images/slashlogo.gif
[i:3tscad2j]One step from lashing out at you again[/i:3tscad2j]
Slash wannabe
 
Posts: 522
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2003 7:50 pm

Re:

Postby Rennie on Mon Jan 19, 2004 7:14 pm

Neil, a students union was supposed to be cheap in the past, and I have no problem with prices being cheap - it's the overall image being cheap that annoys me. When I say cheap and cheerful, I refer to something like a cheaper supermarket brand of food - it may taste nicer than more expensive similar items, but because it's packaging is cheaper it is 'looked down' upon. However, i'd be as pleased as the next person if a 'pound a pint' promotion was in place!

Beatons is a prime site for development, and should be undertaken as soon as possible. This is clear in the falling numbers of users of the union - especially in Beatons at lunchtime. Charlie (the catering manager) has tried his best this year, and the food is nice and youg et large portions - but it's a sad fact that the Ginhouse food is nicer and nearly the same price, with table service and so on.

Comparing to Dundee is completely unfeasible - Dundee is not St Andrews in practically all respects. The point I was making is that the union has become quieter over the 2 1/2 years I have been here - wheather this is due to increased competition or the union decreasing in quality/price etc...is to be seen. We used to be a lot busier, with a greater core customer base but it seems to be sliding. The union has its regulars which come no matter what, we also need to cater for the possibles. When people think of going out in St Andrews, I want them to be thinking of going to the union at least at some point of their night. Saturdays used to be amuch busier then they currently are - this is also another area for concern.

Being reasonable is what I am being. Minor repairs and general tardiness is one of the main points that irritates me at the union - for the cost of one projector these could all be sorted out. With more money spent some real changes could be made to make a difference to student's impressions. Remember, the union were planning on spending upwards of £80,000 on renovating the 4 toilets on the ground floor, so the money IS available.

The reason for not comparing St Andrews to other unions is two fold. We are a small town, and we don't let in the local population, which is a large number of excluded customers. Now, I like the exclusivity of the union, and would not wish to change this - but this means you need to cater for as many students as possible to make up this shortcoming. Also, we are not a typical student population. The average money a student has to spend on a night out in St Andrews is noticeably more than most other students - as proved by drink/take away food prices for a start.

Gigs, a good idea but in their present format they just aren;t successful enough. Hopefully venue 2 could be a pernament fixture for gigs in the future - smaller, cosier, has it's own bar, lower costs..etc, but it's up all those stairs and noise is a problem. New ideas need to be explored and put into action for gigs to work within the student union - but there clearly is a demand (from the number of past posts on this subject)

Hopefully, the union management will release some funds for real changes to happen, but until then I worry that the union will increasingly become underused - leading to more cuts, etc..

I know this is a bunch of random points, but I am basically procrastinating from exam work - so my mind is working in an illogical way. I do appreciate the feedback on my ideas though.
Rennie
 
Posts: 855
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2003 1:51 pm

Re:

Postby RichZ on Mon Jan 19, 2004 7:50 pm

On the point of gigs, there were quite a few gigs last semester on Tuesdays, and they seemed to go reasonablly well. Now maybe because Venue 1 isn't filled by them people think it didn't go well? If so, then we might be able to screen off part of it, as well as other bits and pieces to try and make it feel a bit cosier, as well as maybe putting the bands on the floor (or on slighty raised area) in front of main stage. We would have to move the main speaker stacks forward but it is possible.
HOWEVER doing all this can seem a lot of work if not many people turn up, and from past expeience it can often depend on the avaliability of Ents whether things like this happen, which cannot always be determined until late notice, and we are normally expected to do it, even though it should have been pointed out already that you need to find you're own people to set up and run, which can be Entrs but not automatically.

Anyway, I'm drifting from the point. That being that if we all work together and organise things properlly, well enough in advance, then there's NO reason why we can have regular gigs enjoyed by lots of people.

There was a plan to have live acoustic sets in main bar (in Rocksoc corner) and play them through a new speaker system, however this has suffered set backs, so I'm not sure when it'll get done. Ben and I are hopefully speak to people about it at start of next semester. We'll keep you posted.

Venue two is OK for small quietish bands, but as some of you may know - Venue 2 isn't all that sound proof, so we have to keep noise down a bit, espically with a councellor living near by!

I agree Rennie, a survey would be a good idea, in order to get together everyones thoughts, on things we need to improve/change, as well as things they already like.

Anyway I think I'll stop now and do a bit of work. Maybe.
RichZ
 
Posts: 667
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

RE: Suggestions to improve the union

Postby Ranter on Thu Jan 29, 2004 3:01 pm

I would agree that the union can easily be improved to an extent.

The bop could look a lot better, I agree with the decorating of the seating area idea and also that the green drapes are ugly.

The reason that the doors to the bop are now shut occasionally on a Thursday and Saturday is that they condense the dance floor to make it a "cosier" atmosphere, if the doors were open you wouldn't be able to see past the partition. One thing I would suggest though, is a simple sign on the doors pointing towards the other entrance.

Your other ideas were pretty small time, I believe that the main faults of the union are a little harder to remedy. Beaton's is not at the top of people's lists when it comes to choosing an eating venue. It should be, I personally enjoy the food, but it hardly looks appetising in big metal containers and with the dirty ladels sitting on top of the counter. I also think that the menu needs elaborating on, and they should collaborate more with the bar to entice cutomers in. Extended opening hours would also suit more students, although the costs of having it open longer would mean that current demand would have to improve.

The games room has improved slightly since last year following the repositioning of the doorway, however, the dance machine when ppl are not using it is simply annoying. Before Christmas, it did not make a sound when not in use... we come back after Christmas and there it is blaring out those awful tunes constantly! Why stop at the dance machine, the other machines are rarely used and if possible should all be silent when not in use. Speakers could then be built in to the games room, so ppl playing pool or air hockey could listen to the music that the ppl in the main bar were.

On busy nights there are frequently too few bar staff working, this leads to frustrated customers and a loss in takings. As a result of waiting at the bar, I sometimes end up drinking 2 or 3 drinks less over the course of the night than I would do if I was served within 2 minutes every time i was at the bar. I heard a rumour that they were going to cut the hours down on bar staff! This seems crazy to me, on a busy Friday night they must take thousands of pounds, an extra body or two for 4 hours would cost nothing compared to the benefits that could be gained as a result, ie greater takings and happier customers.

Anyway, I have ranted enough. Sorry for those of you have actually bothered to read it all!
Ranter
 

some facts

Postby phil reid on Thu Feb 26, 2004 1:58 pm

as its a very slow day at DWP I was browsing this site and decided to try to answer some questions. I would however like to make it absolutely clear that I speak for no-one in st andrews, and all opinions are my own

on mr muirs perfectly sensible suggestions:

1. Surely entirely unneccessary as their not actually very complicated. turn up on the day and ask. guests must be in by 11 and signed in for the weekend by 4.45. also a sign would actually need planning permission


2. A rope barrier would narrow the corridor, which is a fire route, and lower the capacity of the building. strange but true

3. Paint would look tacky and scruffy very quickly. a carpet might be nicer but would need to be shampooed on friday and saturday mornings, and would not have time to dry, leaving a smell such as can be found in the mardi gras. Probably best to think of them as industrial, oh, and that aint no plywood

4. Definately get rid of the green, but a graffitti artist would want slightly more than you expect, and again it would look tacky extremely quickly. Matt black drapes were always the plan, but theres always something more important to do than measure the seating blocks and order DFR black drapes

5. Whilst I see the point of people wanting to stay out until it is busy, frankly its a students union not a club, (you can tell by the way not everyone has knives), and you shouldn't be denying students the knowledge of what its like inside. make the events better people, dont trick people into going in

6. as i say above, dont give free access, spend money making the event better, also with the regard to the discussion on free drink, when the union does give out free alcohol the supplier, i.e. guiness or aftershock actually buy it from the union, they don't give it to the union, so it makes as much as if the students had bought it

and on the fundamental problem that you percieve it isn't the lack of proffessionality, it is the failure to give off an air of proffessionality. There's a big difference

On comedy Dave's random rant:
as someone points out, you were all for not paying djs last year, as you put it you would happily play the union for free for the atmosphere and the chance to use proffessional equipment.
the idea was you would train dj's, prepare playlists and organise them. the djs would also then get paying gigs at balls and in pubs from the exposure gained at the union. if the scheme has failed it is due to your failure to actually do anything

on the subject of prices and beers the prices in the union are still incredibly close to what they were when I arrived in 1998, inspite of higher transport costs, minimum wage, and duty on alcopops. the reason they have stayed down was northern services moving to a single supplier for brewed products in 2002 when many new taxes came in, and at the time tennents tendered a lower bid than any of the other suppliers

on the issue of beatons it cannot be the cheapest place in st andrews, as it can never be cheaper than a pasta 'n' source from tesco's. it is a union department, and whilst you may say 'a macdonalds in the union would make a fortune' you should also ask ' why doesn't one open in st andrews anyway?' the reason is st andrews is st andrews has only 15000 residents, and you can't eat a maccy d that often. the franchise costs a fortune, and the union would pay for it all year, even when shut.
Beatons's problem is lack of investment, and I will cover this issue below

on the topflight club manager i've no doubt that if you replaced campbell dave sandy and the sabs oyu could afford one, but then you'd need to re-appoint a bar manager, a deputy manager, a maintenance manager and someone to oversee the other departments. Mardi-Gras has 5 managers of different types, to open for less than 50 hours week.

on external projectors ones to cover that kind of a distance with that level of background light and at such a sharp angle, you would be looking at £10000s

on gigs there have been,as others have said, many many gigs, but when people say we want up and coming bands, they either mean i want a band i know who no one else will go to see or we want the darkness. just look at snow patrol, now a major band, 6 months ago a crowd of a few hundred in freshers week and major haemorraging of money

and the last set of points are from the incredibly poorly informed. if he has served a year as an officer he has made absolutely no attempt to look at how the organisation works, done no research and is seriously lacking in common sense.
on the point of what students want he appears entirely unaware that the union regularly pulls in more students than the west port, broons and the gin house combined. remember the place is massive, 2000 capacity, and on a bad weeknight there are maybe 150 people in the bar, and on a thursday 500, on friday 1500 and on a saturday 1000, and these are the low figures. if an impartial observer were asked what the busiest place in st andrews is, there is only one which can regularly claim p to a 1/4 of the student populace
on the survey if it's your job why did the sabs have to stand other to ensure you did it. also have you set up anyform of committee or working group to analyse the results you recieved, or is it your considered opinion that it students haven't been 'lost' all the union needs lost people don't go to a bar and stay for 4 years. individual offers and an envigorated program will bring them back
the note of yours on the projectors and lighting rigs shows an alarming ignorance. the union has 2 video projectors, one bought 6 years, and one swapped for 4 broken lights in the summer which the insurer had written off, so the union is actually not depreciating any projectors. on the lighting rig the union has spent aout £30 000 - £40000 on fabric and lighting in venue 1 since 2000, less than £10 000 a year, and all needed if you compare the place I came to to the venue you have now. in that time ents has generated over £400 000 in revenue, approaching double what in did in the four years beforehand. really do do your homework before you mouth off. On the subject of maintenance do you realise how much the union already spends on that? the problems are firstly holding onto staff to work 6-9 every morning, and the tiny window for work. the building opens it's doors at 6 and the public comes in at 9, meaning there is no poortunity for repainting or signifiant works except in the holidays. it is also tied to university maintnenance contracts, and university contractors will always go to them insstead of us (it is a uni building so this will never change)
finally on the point of the union management freeing funds. that would be you you halfwit. of couse money is available, over 1 million pounds, but it has to be spent on projects where it will be made back, that being basic financial logic (mind you it is basic so thatmay of escaped you).

now having answered those points i'll make my own summary. the main problem for the union is the hard working senior officials get completely exhausted dealing with trivia. after the 10th straight 5 hour SRC meeting discussing its only topic, restructuring, you're not at your best the next morning. equally hours spent on disciplinary appeals because people feel they have the right to vandalise the premises or be violent towards staff and students does the same to your enthusiasm, as does having someone winge at you for 2 hours in your office, then in the saint then on the sinner because there physicaly isn't space for their booking. this isn't an excuse, as sabs are paid to do it, but there are only so many hours in the day, and the junior officers, such as mr rennie, are often to busy trying to make themselves look good by criticising to buck their chances for re-election to do any significant work on actually making the place better.

on the lack of investment the problem has been since 2000 the lack of a plan. whilst I have to take some blame for this is does seem the current sabs are creating one, which i cannot download and look at here, it is important this document is more than a wish list and looks at how to finance and implement the changes the strategic plan recommends, as well as a having a review structure

enough bitterness, time to get back to earning your money (if you pay taxes), and olly, if you put this on unedited I'll pay you back the money I owe you if I ever go back up there

Phil Reid, VPS 2001-2
phil reid
 

Re:

Postby Rennie on Sat Feb 28, 2004 4:09 am

Phil, if you want to be an insulting twat, fine. Just get your own facts straight first - and don't personally insult me on a messageboard, do it to my face. I can't even be bothered replying to your post I feel so contemptuous of it, and my general feeling of apathy towarsd the union its services isn't helping the matter.

Some points in your post are so wrong it's to the point of idiocy. You say I have no common sense, maybe you should look more carefully at your own ideas.
Rennie
 
Posts: 855
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2003 1:51 pm

pardon?

Postby phil reid on Mon Mar 01, 2004 9:50 pm

i had no intention of being an 'insulting twat' and doing so to your face would require a 1000 mile round trip, which considering i don't know what you look like would be quite pointless. I was simply venting my frustration that someone who holds a position within the students union will hold rail so innaccurately against an organisation they are part of the management of, whilst apparently lacking any motive except self promotion.

I'd be quite intrigued to know which facts i need to get straight. I will concede that some parts were poorly worded as i was writing inbetween clients, but I'd like to know which of my ideas are so close to idiocy.

Whilst I don't think this thread should become a slagging match between us, you really can't make a post like that and refuse to elaborate. Perhaps any passing reader might think your points have no basis in reality and you are just trying to deflect attention from your own shortcomings - and we couldn't have that, could we.

idiotically and insultingly yours

Phil Reid
phil reid
 

Re:

Postby docomm on Mon Mar 01, 2004 9:53 pm

hello, phil! haven't heard from you in ages... what's your email address so I can tell you all the craic...
docomm
 

Re:

Postby Rennie on Tue Mar 02, 2004 12:28 pm

Ok, quickly, as I don't want to waste my time with you, I will run through your either idiotic or plain stupid parts of your post which annoyed me.

[s]Unregisted User phil reid wrote on 11:02, 25th Feb 2004:

1. Surely entirely unneccessary as their not actually very complicated. turn up on the day and ask. guests must be in by 11 and signed in for the weekend by 4.45. - It is complicated to the 40 or so students I personally turn away (I also work as Door Security) every week because they didn't know these rules. Maybe because you worked there for a year you have a better grasp of them than most?

also a sign would actually need planning permission - what, for a sign on the inside of the glass? I don't think so.


2. A rope barrier would narrow the corridor, which is a fire route, and lower the capacity of the building. strange but true - Balls. This gets said every time this idea is suggested., The union has never once been full to capacity on the last year and a half so this isn't a problem and the corridor would be widened if anything as the people lining up would be in single file, allowing more space for others to pass. Simple logic.

3. Paint would look tacky and scruffy very quickly. a carpet might be nicer but would need to be shampooed on friday and saturday mornings, and would not have time to dry, leaving a smell such as can be found in the mardi gras. Probably best to think of them as industrial, oh, and that aint no plywood - Heard of re-painting? It's also relatively simple and cheap, especially if you get your own staff to do it (which I have seen on many occasions) I also don't think carpet would be a good idea but it was never suggested.

4. Definately get rid of the green, but a graffitti artist would want slightly more than you expect, and again it would look tacky extremely quickly. Matt black drapes were always the plan, but theres always something more important to do than measure the seating blocks and order DFR black drapes. - Something tackier than large green plastic sheeting? Is that possible? There's always something more important to do, like eating at beatons for 2 hours a day? Or generally arsing about? Ok, now I see your point.

5. Whilst I see the point of people wanting to stay out until it is busy, frankly its a students union not a club, (you can tell by the way not everyone has knives), and you shouldn't be denying students the knowledge of what its like inside. make the events better people, dont trick people into going in - I agree.

6. as i say above, dont give free access, spend money making the event better, also with the regard to the discussion on free drink, when the union does give out free alcohol the supplier, i.e. guiness or aftershock actually buy it from the union, they don't give it to the union, so it makes as much as if the students had bought it - Maybe if we negotiated more agreements like this, than we would be able to run the offers that seem popular (I remember a free tennants offer in Venue 1 being very successful). You never actually say whether free drink is a good idea or not, personally I think it is.

and on the fundamental problem that you percieve it isn't the lack of proffessionality, it is the failure to give off an air of proffessionality. There's a big difference - They are one and the same to the paying customers who only see the "lack of an air of professionality" (as you put it), and the Union itself to me looks more unprofessional than any I have been in throughout the country, and many of them have the same number of students as St Andrews - so probably similar budgets as well, they just don't hoard it all in the bank.

on the subject of prices and beers the prices in the union are still incredibly close to what they were when I arrived in 1998, inspite of higher transport costs, minimum wage, and duty on alcopops. the reason they have stayed down was northern services moving to a single supplier for brewed products in 2002 when many new taxes came in, and at the time tennents tendered a lower bid than any of the other suppliers - Prices have increased from £1.20 a pint to £1.50 a pint for the cheapest one over 2 1/2 years. This is not in line with inflation, and is an increase of 25% on the original price. (someone tell me if I have the maths wrong) As this is the main drink for the customers in the Union then they have been unfairly hit by large increases for profiteering (in my view). Although, the Union does have much cheaper drinks than the rest of town generally, there are some nights when other pubs beat them (Boozeday Tuesday in the Vic for one)

on the issue of beatons it cannot be the cheapest place in st andrews, as it can never be cheaper than a pasta 'n' source from tesco's. - Irrelevant point, we're clearly talking about food you don't have to cook yourself, that's one of the main points of eating out. That's an idiotic statement if ever I saw one.

it is a union department, and whilst you may say 'a macdonalds in the union would make a fortune' you should also ask ' why doesn't one open in st andrews anyway?' the reason is st andrews is st andrews has only 15000 residents, and you can't eat a maccy d that often. the franchise costs a fortune, and the union would pay for it all year, even when shut.
Beatons's problem is lack of investment, and I will cover this issue below - McDonalds are desperate to open an outlet in St Andrews, as can be seen by the refulsals of the owner of PM's when it goes to the relevant council boards. You can't eat a McD's that often? Tell that to the 20% of American kids who eat one every day. Get your facts straight. Why would we pay for the franchise?? McD's pay for the rent of the space, and the exclusive licence of selling food in teh union. They would also avoid planning permission going down this road (I assume). They would jump at the chance to have a franchise in the union, but I don't think this is a good idea, not healthy, not an ethical company blah blah.

on the topflight club manager i've no doubt that if you replaced campbell dave sandy and the sabs oyu could afford one, but then you'd need to re-appoint a bar manager, a deputy manager, a maintenance manager and someone to oversee the other departments. Mardi-Gras has 5 managers of different types, to open for less than 50 hours week. - If you replaced all those people, you would probably be saving £130,000 a year (Rough estimates). I think this could get you more than one manager. Do the maths.

on external projectors ones to cover that kind of a distance with that level of background light and at such a sharp angle, you would be looking at £10000s - Not true at all. If they were set up correctly, from overhanging temporary brackets (so no planning permission is needed) then they could be positioned close to the union wall, solving ther problem of dispersion. A projector could then be bought for about £3,000 for a good model, cheaper for worse. Again, do the maths.

on gigs there have been,as others have said, many many gigs, but when people say we want up and coming bands, they either mean i want a band i know who no one else will go to see or we want the darkness. just look at snow patrol, now a major band, 6 months ago a crowd of a few hundred in freshers week and major haemorraging of money - Gigs, this never seems to work. Maybe advertising is the problem? As I have little interest in live music, I'm not sure how to make this area better, so I'll leave it to someone better than me to think of ideas.

and the last set of points are from the incredibly poorly informed. if he has served a year as an officer he has made absolutely no attempt to look at how the organisation works, done no research and is seriously lacking in common sense. - The position of Trading Officer is a redundant position. This has been noted in the Working Party's discussions. Therefore, there isn't much I can actually do for my role. A gopher for the sabs is not something I am willing to do, they get paid for their jobs remember.

on the point of what students want he appears entirely unaware that the union regularly pulls in more students than the west port, broons and the gin house combined. remember the place is massive, 2000 capacity, and on a bad weeknight there are maybe 150 people in the bar, and on a thursday 500, on friday 1500 and on a saturday 1000, and these are the low figures. - Your figures are incorrect. I know this, as again I make the point that everyone going in goes past me. Your figures are for good busy nights, and the Saturday figure is not right on any night. You must also remember that a lot of people do not stay in the union for very long, and some just pass through looking for friends.

if an impartial observer were asked what the busiest place in st andrews is, there is only one which can regularly claim p to a 1/4 of the student populace. - It is a massive venue, the biggest in St Andrews with the latest licence on a Friday. We should be drawing in more than 1/4 of all students (not that I think 1/4 are 'drawn in') anyway, at least at some point in the night.

on the survey if it's your job - It isn't my job as Trading Officer why did the sabs have to stand other to ensure you did it. - That doesn't make senes and I can't even decipher it. also have you set up anyform of committee or working group to analyse the results you recieved, or is it your considered opinion that it students haven't been 'lost' all the union needs lost people don't go to a bar and stay for 4 years. - The results haven't been collated yet, and this isn't my responsibility, so I don't know. I helped set it up, and got people to fill it in for the day. This, I feel, is a fair share of the workload to a non-paid, irrelevant, officer.

individual offers and an envigorated program will bring them back - This is a true point. Are you trying to be sarcastic?

the note of yours on the projectors and lighting rigs shows an alarming ignorance. the union has 2 video projectors, one bought 6 years, and one swapped for 4 broken lights in the summer which the insurer had written off, so the union is actually not depreciating any projectors. on the lighting rig the union has spent aout £30 000 - £40000 on fabric and lighting in venue 1 since 2000, less than £10 000 a year, and all needed if you compare the place I came to to the venue you have now. - I don't know exact figures, all I know is that a large amount of money gets spent on lighting each year and it is rarely all used at once. This seems to be wasting money on something which is already good enough for the job, concentrate on getting people in there to actually see the lights etc..

...in that time ents has generated over £400 000 in revenue, approaching double what in did in the four years beforehand. - I doubt this figure strongly, but I have no figures to go off myself. £400,000 seems a lot to me, I can't see where all that money would come from? Student plays? Occasional renting? are you taking into account overheads?

really do do your homework before you mouth off. - The pot calling the kettle black?

On the subject of maintenance do you realise how much the union already spends on that? the problems are firstly holding onto staff to work 6-9 every morning, and the tiny window for work. the building opens it's doors at 6 and the public comes in at 9, meaning there is no poortunity for repainting or signifiant works except in the holidays. - It isn't even done in the holidays, extensive maintainence was being carried out through Freshers Week, the busiest week of the year for the Union, the time when you are supposed to impress the students. Maintainence can be carried out in quiet afternoon periods, I have seen re-painting happen at these times, why not the minor cosmetic changes that need doing?

....it is also tied to university maintnenance contracts, and university contractors will always go to them insstead of us (it is a uni building so this will never change) - Possibly. I don;t know the specifics of contracts and so on.

finally on the point of the union management freeing funds. that would be you you halfwit. - WHAT? Why would I have control of these funds? What are you on about you idiot?

...of couse money is available, over 1 million pounds, but it has to be spent on projects where it will be made back, that being basic financial logic - Obviously. Then why have no proposals been made to make major changes since I have been here? Why has teh union got steadily worse, and more expensive? Why can get nicer food somewhere else in town for a lot less money? Because the Union management are inefficient, like so many departments within this University. There are people there who really do try, but with the limited resources, it is no wonder that they give up.

(mind you it is basic so thatmay of escaped you). - Thanks for the random insult. Have one back. Prick

now having answered those points i'll make my own summary. the main problem for the union is the hard working senior officials get completely exhausted dealing with trivia. after the 10th straight 5 hour SRC meeting discussing its only topic, restructuring, - Yes, I completely agree. Insomniacs, I recommend Union meetings to cure any conditions you may have.

you're not at your best the next morning. equally hours spent on disciplinary appeals because people feel they have the right to vandalise the premises or be violent towards staff and students does the same to your enthusiasm - Or, trying to ban someone for assaulting you the night before, only then having to let the same person in the next night because of disiplinary proceedurtes taking place, and the lack of strict policy on this subject.. The Deputy Building Manager's common sense approach is extremely useful on those occasions.

...as does having someone winge at you for 2 hours in your office, then in the saint then on the sinner because there physicaly isn't space for their booking. this isn't an excuse, as sabs are paid to do it, but there are only so many hours in the day, and the junior officers, such as mr rennie, are often to busy trying to make themselves look good by criticising to buck their chances for re-election - Re-election??? Why would I want to do that? I ran first time to see what the inner workings of the Union were like, I wouldn't want to go back there.

to do any significant work on actually making the place better. - Hmm, I doubt that. Very much so. If the sabs wanted to make the place better, they could. They (I think) have to try and push through more ambitious projects and ideas which will lead to real change. However, I don't think they will.

on the lack of investment the problem has been since 2000 the lack of a plan. whilst I have to take some blame for this is does seem the current sabs are creating one, which i cannot download and look at here, it is important this document is more than a wish list and looks at how to finance and implement the changes the strategic plan recommends, as well as a having a review structure - Possibly, again I don't have dealings with this.

enough bitterness, time to get back to earning your money (if you pay taxes), and olly, if you put this on unedited I'll pay you back the money I owe you if I ever go back up there

Phil Reid, VPS 2001-2


So, have I explained myself clearly enough? I certainly wasted enough of my time on you. Maybe if you had done your job properly when you were in office the Union wouldn't have been in a steady decline since you left. Or maybe that's just the way things are.

Alex Rennie

Edited for formatting
Rennie
 
Posts: 855
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2003 1:51 pm

Re:

Postby RichZ on Tue Mar 02, 2004 3:59 pm

Now now children, there's no need to be like that!

Also, OH MY GOD! That must be up there as one of the longest posts ever surely!
RichZ
 
Posts: 667
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Re:

Postby grrr on Wed Mar 03, 2004 3:37 pm

Who is this Rennie bloke? Please don't tell me he's actually a representative or officer of some sort. the guy is obviously an arrogant twat who refuses to listen to anyone other than the voices in his head. I thought the post by Phil so and so was right on the money and he certainly didn't come across as a moron anyway. All the posts by rennie that i have ever read have been completely rude and arrogant.

What is the guy's surname? I want to make sure I don't tick it in any future elections >:|
grrr
 

finally

Postby phil reid on Wed Mar 03, 2004 3:39 pm

don't really want to go on with with any longer, but briefly...

you are a member of the union management committee, all major spending proposals go past you

you acknowledge you have no idea of finances in spite of being trading officer, and also say that just because you are an officer you shouldn't have to do any work.
hmmm.

the owner of PMs, peter martin, does not run st andrews. If McDOnalds wanted to open a managed outlet in st andrews they could. what you are referring to is an urban myth. I looked at the viability of a franchise 2 years ago.

on the graffiti panels ask anyone who was in st as during 99-00 about the drapes. believe me green looks better.
on 2 hour lunches i don't recall taking any, but i do remeber working around 60 hours a week

a rope barrier would reduce the fire exits from venue 1, meaning its capacity would be reduced. venue 1 has sold out on a number of occaisons in the past few years. just because logic says a rope barrier may quicken peoples exit the health and safety regulations do not.

i agreed the £1.20 a pint and it dramatically cut bar profit that year. the year before it was £.50, and as i already mention there have been many cost increases above inflation.

the union only spent money on lighting during the 02-03 financial year. the last significant expenditure before that was in 99-00. the equipment was almost all 2nd hand ex hire or display stock bought at massive discounts due to the negotiating of bruce.

I could go on but i suspect i have already proven even in your eyes my case: that you have done very little research and rely on hearsay or 'my mate says' whilst tearing into an organisation you are a part of.

the huge masses of information you say you do not have is freely available to you or any student. to not have done this even before answering me and accusing me of being idiotic really is unforgiveable. I know I can produce a full supporting case for everything I said, you have already admitted above that you can't for yourself.

My closing note, before I stop working for the civil service and no longer have time to browse noticeboards all day...

People of st andrews. the union isn't that bad. compare it to similar sized universities and it comes off very well, whilst obviously it comes off very badly if you compare it to universitys double or more its size.

however the only way its going to get better is by students doing something about it. I do believe the elections are approaching, and if you do have suggestions stand for office, and actual try to do something about it.

if you dont do it then you will end up with officers who think its not their problem, whereas anyone reading this thread can make a difference. believe me, if they want to let it to, the officers can use the system as an excuse for failure, or if you want it to, you can make it work for you and the students
phil reid
 

PreviousNext

Return to The Students' Association (Union)

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron