Christian Voice Rides Again (more Christian Bashing)

[Rob Hearn]

More importantly, who cares what a handful of people proclaimed several centuries ago? What makes Jesus any more of an authority on the subject than you or me? Nothing, as far as I can make out. If Jesus turned up now and started decrying homosexual sex, he'd be laughed at, dismissed, and possibly headbutted. And it would be a good thing too, because we all know - except those christians whose ridiculous faith compels them towards immoral beliefs - that there's nothing morally wrong with two people of the same sex canoodling.

[James]

[s]Rob Hearn wrote on 22:35, 16th Jan 2005:
More importantly, who cares what a handful of people proclaimed several centuries ago? What makes Jesus any more of an authority on the subject than you or me? Nothing, as far as I can make out. If Jesus turned up now and started decrying homosexual sex, he'd be laughed at, dismissed, and possibly headbutted. And it would be a good thing too, because we all know - except those christians whose ridiculous faith compels them towards immoral beliefs - that there's nothing morally wrong with two people of the same sex canoodling.




I'd hate to meet you in a discussion-based tutorial: you must just attempt shout down your opponents with no respect for their right to a belief. Your method of attack seems to be to phrase your arguments in forceful language which displays no evidence that you've much understanding of the topic. You seem to wish to force your own ideas through and simultaneously cover up this lack of background knowledge by increasing the vehemence of your words -- and I apologise if you do know the subject, but I can only speak as I find, and you do not demonstrate it.

The reason that Christians think Jesus is a big deal is that they think He's the Son of God, and therefore spoke with a little more authority than an average human; and the reason others thought him worth a listen was that He demonstrated good knowledge of Jewish scriptures. You almost certainly won't believe that, given your other postings, but you cannot say that Christian beliefs based on Jesus' teachings, within the context of Christianity, are worthless. These teachings may have no worth to you, as a Dawkinsist, but please have the decency to respect others' beliefs, and their right to have them, and to at least understand why those beliefs matter as much as they do to the people concerned.

Could one copy your argument and paste an edited version that would substitute words such as "Christian" with "Dawkinsist" in order to produce an equally violent contrary view, and expect it to be accepted on the same gorunds by which you want your philosophical masterpice to withstand the rigors of someone else pointing out the obivous errors? (rhetorical)

[LonelyPilgrim]

[s]James wrote on 00:12, 17th Jan 2005:

I'd hate to meet you in a discussion-based tutorial: you must just attempt shout down your opponents with no respect for their right to a belief. Your method of attack seems to be to phrase your arguments in forceful language which displays no evidence that you've much understanding of the topic. You seem to wish to force your own ideas through and simultaneously cover up this lack of background knowledge by increasing the vehemence of your words -- and I apologise if you do know the subject, but I can only speak as I find, and you do not demonstrate it.

The reason that Christians think Jesus is a big deal is that they think He's the Son of God, and therefore spoke with a little more authority than an average human; and the reason others thought him worth a listen was that He demonstrated good knowledge of Jewish scriptures. You almost certainly won't believe that, given your other postings, but you cannot say that Christian beliefs based on Jesus' teachings, within the context of Christianity, are worthless. These teachings may have no worth to you, as a Dawkinsist, but please have the decency to respect others' beliefs, and their right to have them, and to at least understand why those beliefs matter as much as they do to the people concerned.

Could one copy your argument and paste an edited version that would substitute words such as "Christian" with "Dawkinsist" in order to produce an equally violent contrary view, and expect it to be accepted on the same gorunds by which you want your philosophical masterpice to withstand the rigors of someone else pointing out the obivous errors? (rhetorical)


James,

Heed my advice... Rob knows his topics very well, probably better than you do. He simply seems to enjoy using strong attacks because he likes unsettling his opponents. Don't start with him, you'll regret it.

Rob,

You do realise that the point I was making is that there is room for a middle ground view between strict Darwinism and strick Creationism? I, personally, am also a Darwinist, but I can not discount the possibility that the process may have been 'nudged' a bit to produce the outcome that we experience. That view certainly is not a Creationist view.

[hr]
---Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.--- Abraham Lincoln

[exnihilo]

Your views become contradictory, Rob. You earlier said that if God showed up and demonstrated His divine powers you would believe in Him, presumably (if only out of fear for your life and afterlife) you would worship him according to his demands and follow his rules? Well, to Christians, Christ is God, so if He showed up, demonstrated divine powers and said "yes, homosexulity is wrong" what then?

Now, obviously I don't believe Christ is God and I don't believe homosexuality is wrong, but you can't have it both ways.


Oh, and Paul - where in the passage you quote does Paul say homnosexuality is wrong? From what you're saying Paul's not a big fan of self-abuse (masturbation, one assumes) or of effiminacy (campness?). Don't quote an English translation at me, unless you have the original text to hand and know what it says and, moreover, understand what it says. And, as Pilgrim pointed out, I quoted the Law a slightly higher authority than Paul.

[Rob Hearn]

Exnihilo, that's just silly, and you know it. Somebody telling me that he is the son of god hardly constitutes proof. Otherwise, I'd be worshipping David Icke. A book saying that christ did some spangly magic isn't proof either. Also, I didn't say all that stuff about worshipping him; I just said if there were good evidence that he existed then I'd believe in him. It wouldn't automatically follow that I believed everything asserted by christianity, or judaism, or whatever, because these offer contradictory views, interpreted in countless ways, so that even believing in the existence of god doesn't entail that biblical edicts carry any weight.

LP, certainly I wasn't criticising your argument in my post. Of course, as before in the debate over whether god exists, I agree that there's a possibility that evolution didn't occur unassisted in the sense that few possibilities can ever entirely eliminated. My view rests on what I regard to be the balance of likelihood. I don't think that our position differs, really; it seems to me that we're looking in different directions, but bound by good reason to stand in pretty much the same place.

[James]

[s]LonelyPilgrim wrote on 00:22, 17th Jan 2005:

James,

Heed my advice... Rob knows his topics very well, probably better than you do. He simply seems to enjoy using strong attacks because he likes unsettling his opponents. Don't start with him, you'll regret it.



Wouldn't happen -- regretting it, I mean -- it's just a discussion. I have no problem with how much someone knows -- I mainly took issue with the method of delivery of the opinion in question, and would have similar problems with a ridiculously forceful opinion on the other side, e.g. the thread about misleading and inaccurate Christianity-based cartoons.

I'm not after a fight, but I don't think bigots, whatever their views, make good disputants -- a point which I felt I'd make, since it's an open message board.

[Rob Hearn]

I'll quote Woody Allen: "Right, I'm a bigot. But I'm a bigot for the left, so it's okay."

[exnihilo]

Rob, you miss my point - if Christ apeared AND demonstrated divine powers, I said. Hell, in those circumstances, I'd have to believe he's the Son of God and that's a big step for a Jew.

So, let me get this straight, God manifests for you, He demonstrates beyond doubt He IS God and your response is "fair enough, I believe in you, but I don't intend worshipping you and you can shove your rules"? In that case you'd better hope the Christians are right and He's forgiving.

[Rob Hearn]

No I didn't miss your point at all. I don't really see how you could take my post that way. When I say 'spangly magic', I of course mean what you mean when you say 'divine powers.' If christ did turn up and demonstrate divine powers, then of course I would believe, but he hasn't, so the point is moot. The only suggestion of him having done so is in the same book that claims the earth to have been created in six days, which, as I said, is hardly proof.

Of course, if god turned up, and it became certain that he existed, and then he said 'you'd better do x and refrain from y or I'll completely fuck you over,' then I'd grumble a bit about his dictatorial nature, but I'd certainly do what he told me to. If the only thing I could be satisfied of is that he existed, then I still wouldn't have reasonable ground to extrapolate much else.

[exnihilo]

Well, I hope I'm never tried for a crime and your on the jury. Because the dozens of people who wrote the new testament, many of whom knew him personally, apparently don't stand as proof that Christ ever existed. Oh dear.

[Paul]

LonelyPilgrim,

I am exnihilo's translation.

"but if you are disagreeing, I have one problem with your point..."

You are correct. Christ did say that the Law has not changed.

Paul is saying homosexual acts are a sin and this is not contrary to the Law. Exnihilo's translation, although literally correct, does not give the correct sense.

Have a look at Leviticus 18:20 and 23

"Moreover thou shalt not lie carnally with thy neighbour's wife, to defile thyself with her ... Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto:"

The Hewbrew translated "thou shalt not lie with" is 'lo titen shekôbeth-cha - not give sexual lying. The context is clearly sexual, and these verses are in agreement with the commandment "Thou shalt not commit adultery", that is not to have sexual relations with anyone (or beast) other than one's spouse.

By saying that Paul's words are 'fallible' you are saying that the Bible is fallible. But, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." - II Timothy 3:16-17.

And Paul's letters are certainly regarded as Scripture, and thus the Word of God. For example, the apostle Peter writes: "And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." - II Peter 3:15-16

There is no contradiction. The Bible is consistant throughout both Testaments, for it is written by a single author, Almighty God himself, and he does not change.

"For I am the LORD, I change not" - Malachi 3:6

"Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever." - Hebrews 13:8

[Paul]

[s]"If Jesus turned up now ... [/s]

Rob, when Jesus "turns up", as you put it, he most certainly will not be laughed at, dismissed, or possibly headbutted.

When he returns, in the not too distant future, all the tribes of the earth will mourn:

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." - Matthew 24:30

This will be a time about which it is said, "Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken." - Luke21:26

"Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand; A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations. A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them. The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run. Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array. Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness. They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks: Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded. They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief. The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?" - Joel 2:1-11

"And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead." - Acts 17:30-31

[Paul]

[s]exnihilo wrote on 09:25, 17th Jan 2005:

Oh, and Paul - where in the passage you quote does Paul say homnosexuality is wrong? From what you're saying Paul's not a big fan of self-abuse (masturbation, one assumes) or of effiminacy (campness?). Don't quote an English translation at me, unless you have the original text to hand and know what it says and, moreover, understand what it says. And, as Pilgrim pointed out, I quoted the Law a slightly higher authority than Paul.


exnihilo, I did have the original text (Greek) to hand. I thought that the Greek ("arseno-koitai") which is translated as "nor abusers of themselves with mankind" was plain. The English phrase was clearly understood to be homosexuals in days gone by. To put the Greek literally into English - "practitioners of anal sex".

As to the Law being a slightly higher authority than Paul, I answered that in a previous post (not yet on the board when your comment was posted) on Paul's writings being regarded as Scripture.

[Paul]

[s]Rob Hearn wrote on 10:27, 17th Jan 2005:
Exnihilo, that's just silly, and you know it. Somebody telling me that he is the son of god hardly constitutes proof. Otherwise, I'd be worshipping David Icke. A book saying that christ did some spangly magic isn't proof either.

Rob, Jesus said the following:

"But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here." - Matthew 12:39-41

This is the only evidence that will be given. God requires faith in himself, as revealed in his Word.

"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us" - John 1:14a

"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." - Hebrews 11:6

God required the same in the Law:

"By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. ... By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth." - Hebrews 11:4-5 & 7-13

"Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee. And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters. And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith." - Deuteronomy 32:18-20

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." - Ephesians 2:8-9

[Paul]

[s]exnihilo wrote on 13:10, 17th Jan 2005:
Rob, you miss my point - if Christ apeared AND demonstrated divine powers, I said. Hell, in those circumstances, [i]I'd have to believe he's the Son of God and that's a big step for a Jew.[/i]


exnihilo, when Christ appears, the Jews will recognise him as the one they have pierced:

"And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn." - Zechariah 12:10

"Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen." - Revelation 1:7

"Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?" - Proverbs 30:4

[LonelyPilgrim]

I'm too tired to read everything you've written just now, Paul. But I do take issue with one thing. Your quotes detailing the infallibility of Scripture, are quotes written by the apostles. Sorry, men claiming infallibility because those same men say they are infallible is circular logic. Show me where either God or Jesus says that scripture is infallible.

I'd also like to point out that quoting scripture in an argument with an atheist, such as Rob, is pointless and rather stupid. It carries no weight, and in fact, makes you appear to be blind to the fact that not everyone assumes the Bible is an ultimate authority.

Furthermore, God did not write the Bible. Even if He did, in the original, the number of translations it has been through would provide a great number of possibilities for corruption of His word. Unless of course you are suggesting that translators such as Martin Luther were an incarnation of God. That is laughable. But considering that, there are no grounds to dismiss exnihilo's translation as incorrect, and automatically assume that whichever version you happen to be reading is correct.

[hr]---Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.--- Abraham Lincoln

[exnihilo]

Additionally, quoting the New Testament to Jews is crass at best and insufferably arrogant and self-righteous at worst.

[James]

[s]exnihilo wrote on 10:18, 18th Jan 2005:
Additionally, quoting the New Testament to Jews is crass at best and insufferably arrogant and self-righteous at worst.



Why? Just curious. I'm not a Jew, so can't argue from that side, but isn't quoting the NT merely supporting the Christian view with Christian scriptures? Is it just as bad for a Muslim to quote the Qu'ran at a Christian or Jew? What about Hara Krishnas quoting the Vedic literature at a Christian? I know that the Jew-Christian thing can be sensitive because of the roots of Christianity, but I don't think it makes sense to try and tell a Christian not to support his/her points of view with the relevant literature.

[exnihilo]

If the quoting is being done specifiically to undermine a person and to condemn him or her for hir or her beliefs then they're all crass. I don't confine it to Christians and Jews.

Though, in fact, I misspoke in the first post, I meant the Old not the New. Quoting the Old Testament at Jews to support the notion of the Messiah is crass.

[Paul]

[s]LonelyPilgrim wrote on 05:21, 18th Jan 2005:
… I do take issue with one thing. Your quotes detailing the infallibility of Scripture, are quotes written by the apostles. Sorry, men claiming infallibility because those same men say they are infallible is circular logic. Show me where either God or Jesus says that scripture is infallible.

Those men do not claim to be infallible – they claim that the word of God is infallible. If there is an Almighty God, it is not beyond the bounds of credibility that he is able to do exactly what he says – namely, keeps his word pure and preserve it for ever, using fallible men for his purposes:

Do you know that when Joseph was sold into Egypt, his brothers had evil intent, but God used it for good:

“And Joseph said unto his brethren, Come near to me, I pray you. And they came near. And he said, I am Joseph your brother, whom ye sold into Egypt. Now therefore be not grieved, nor angry with yourselves, that ye sold me hither: for God did send me before you to preserve life.” – Genesis 45:4-5

So God uses men for his purposes.

Jesus quoted extensively from the three parts of the Tenach, - the Law (of Moses), the Prophets, and the Writings (which includes the Psalms) - which Christians know as the Old Testament. I will just mention this one reference:

“And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, …” – Luke 24:44-45

In the Psalms we have the following, verifying that God’s Word is pure and eternal:

“The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.” – Psalm 12:6-7

And in the prophet Isaiah:

“The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.” – Isaiah – 40:8-9

And in Proverbs:

“Every word of God is pure:” – Proverbs 30:5a

And Jesus gave us the command to search the scriptures:

“Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.” – John 5:39

So my words or opinions are of no consequence, it is God’s Word that matters – whether you choose to believe it, or not.