Paul Bashing Thread

[Paul]

Just got into work and had a quick look at what has been happening on The Sinner.

Here is a place, approved by Paul, to engage is some Paul Bashing. I will also respond to as much of the bashing that has gone on over the last few hours as time permits during the day.

[Legion]

Where do you work?

[Paul]

[s]legion wrote on 10:36, 8th Apr 2005:
Where do you work?


Sorry, this the "Paul Bashing thread". Paul bashing in at work is not permitted!

[monkeymadness]

[s]Paul wrote on 09:15, 8th Apr 2005:
Just got into work and had a quick look at what has been happening on The Sinner.



Hey! I got into work about 9.15am so maybe I’m Spartacus.

[geek] Maybe it’s like one of the Glory/Ben split things. Would explain why I wake up on strange pews with paper cuts all over my hands.

As long as I’m not secretly trying to open the Hellmouth…

[/geek]

[Paul]

From the "An Experiment" thread on the off-topic subject of Roman Catholicism being idolatrous:

[s]annonymous1 wrote on 02:16, 8th Apr 2005:
Paul - you brought it up, and if you don't want to start talking about it in here then shut up about it.

I for one go with sid that you are totally dogmatic.

I am quite prepared to talk about it, as I said in another post, and have demonstrated elsewhere.


As for your belief in preaching - go and get ordained or something before you carry on would you. Your incessant sermonising is boring.

How do you know that I am not ordained? I have studied theology.


The ONLY thing you talk about is the Bible.

The Bible is not just for "religion". It is the Word of God, and is a the manual of the Creator to the created about his work, giving them the truth about life, the reason for all the trouble in the world, the solution to mans problems, and is a guide for daily living.

Further, when one becomes a true believer, one's priorities change. One dies to self, and desires to tell others of the Good News that salvation is possible for sinners. Seeing as God has ordained that the seed to be sown is His Word, and that "faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" - Romans 10:17, one has no choice but to quote scripture if one wants to save others.

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." - Galatians 2:20


And before you ask, yes I am a christian, ...


You are deceived. The call in the bible is:

"Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?" - II Corinthians 13:5

"Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." - Titus 1:15-16


... and no you will never suceed in bringing me round to your way of thinking, so don't even start thinking about trying to.

That was my position also, at one time.


Is this all you talk about? Really? Don't you have a full and varied life - or is it so limited and shallow that the only thing you can do is tell people what to do.


My life is full and varied, but governed by the Word of God. And I do not tell people what to do - I tell them what the their condition is before God, the consequence of such a condition, and the way out - should they wish to take it.


People hate being told what to do, which is why it is much easier to look at religion as if it is all symbolic of what we should do, rather than LITERALLY what we should do.

I agree that people hate being confronted with the truth of their condition - with the truth that what they love is sinful, and therefore they will rationalise away the literal truth of the Word of God by reading it symbolically.


And, do us all a favour. Can you answer my post please without the use of biblical or religious reference? Can you prove to me that you can think for yourself? Think unaided? Think freely?


I believe I have demonstrated above why this is neither possible nor desirable. It will not gain converts and thus save people from an etrnity in Hell.

"Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins." - James 5:20

[LonelyPilgrim]

Likewise, annonymous1, I find it odd that a self-professed Christian would rail against the use of the Bible in argument...

If you do not regard the Bible as authoritative (and here *I* will admit of certain reservations that I'm sure Paul could consider apostasy... ) then from where do you draw the doctrines of your belief?

[hr]I sing of arms, and the man...

[LonelyPilgrim]

Paul,

It is my belief that the action of the Spirit upon the soul is one of becoming without sin, rather than one of being without sin. Ergo, a 'True Believer' is not going to be without sin, or always be doing Good Works... though they will have a growing capacity to do so as they pray and reflect and try to do God's Will.

Pride, especially seems to be one that it is difficult for 'True Believers' to shake, and I'd say there is some evidence that it is a malus you still struggle with...

[hr]I sing of arms, and the man...

[Prophet Tenebrae]

Dear Paul,

You have waxed lyrical on many occasions about the link between the most recent Pope/ Catholic Church and Nazis - do you believe that the Catholic Church has then always been an organisation which has associated and promoted evil?

[Paul]

From "An Experiment" thread:

[s]Sid wrote on 02:32, 8th Apr 2005:
Paul ...

As for the Catholic thing and the Vatican not recognising the second commandment. Well is this purely why you hate Catholics ...

I do not hate Roman Catholics. If I did, I would save myself a lot of aggro and grief, and leave them to their heretical theology whose end is an eternity in Hell. It is because I am obeying the command of Christ to "love thy neighbour as thyself" that I confron them with their errors.

... or is it that you're green with envy because lets face it, no one quite matches the Catholics. Look at tomorrow (today I suppose) for example. All the world figures are going Rome in their droves, thousands of pilgrims, vast groups of people, Catholic and some not, all going to show respect for the late Pope John Paul II. Now as a Baptist what do you make of that? What does that show you? When was there a mass world wide funeral for a Baptist leader?

It shows me the truth of the Bible when it states:

"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." - Matthew 7:13-14

It's jealousy Paul and you know it.

No jealousy involved at all.

You ought to go and have a little swim in that big bath in your Baptist church and cleanse your soul.

Baptism does not cleanse the soul. It is merely symbolic of a repentance that has taken place and a rebirth to eternal life.

"This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." - I John 1:5-10

"If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." - I John 5:9-12

"Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him." - Acts 8:35-38

Not only have you been a bigot this evening you've also been a jealous bigot and that's the worst sin ever.


No. The worst sin is something else and is unforgiveable:

"Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." - Matthew 12:31-32

[Paul]

[s]Prophet Tenebrae wrote on 12:50, 8th Apr 2005:
Dear Paul,

You have waxed lyrical on many occasions about the link between the most recent Pope/ Catholic Church and Nazis - do you believe that the Catholic Church has then always been an organisation which has associated and promoted evil?


Yes, the Roman Catholic Church has been evil from its inception. However, it has also to be said that evil does not always appear to be evil. It can sometimes have a beautiful face!

"For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works." - II Corinthians 11:13-15

[Paul]

[s]LonelyPilgrim wrote on 12:44, 8th Apr 2005:
Paul,

Pride, especially seems to be one that it is difficult for 'True Believers' to shake, and I'd say there is some evidence that it is a malus you still struggle with...


Would you be so good as to provide a practical example or two of this?

[quarterstaff]

paul,

can you not see that there is no logical or value difference between you standing up and proclaiming that YOUR book the bible is true, because the book and some historical figures say so; and a rampant muslim standing up and saying so about the koran; etc?


your thoughts please... and dont just quote at me, because surely we must have proof from outside each of the books in question in order to compare their validity, no?

[Paul]

"An Experiment" thread again.

[s]annonymous1 wrote on 02:36, 8th Apr 2005:

BUT YOU REFUSE TO ANSWER ME? I DETECT A LACK OR MORAL FIBRE. AND A LACK OF FREE THOUGHT TO BOOT.

Un like some on The Sinner, I am unable to go through the night - night after night.

And if you want a test of moral fibre, try accompanying one other in attempting to convert Jews on the street in Golders Green (a largely Jewish part of London) on a busy Thursday night, a mere couple of hours after one of your number has been beaten up by them.

do you really need the good book in order to answer everything someone says?

Well, not quite everything!

[exnihilo]

I certainly don't condone violence - but I can easily see why it would have come about. Jews, as a rule, want nothing more than to be left alone to go about their own lives in their own way. After thousands of years of persecution, the last thing they want is to be confronted in the streets by some religious nut telling them that unless they admit that everything they believe is false they will go to hell. Fine, you feel some kind of duty to "save" us, but Jews could use a little less hassle, not much to ask.

[LonelyPilgrim]

[s]Paul wrote on 13:03, 8th Apr 2005:
[s]LonelyPilgrim wrote on 12:44, 8th Apr 2005:[i]
Paul,

Pride, especially seems to be one that it is difficult for 'True Believers' to shake, and I'd say there is some evidence that it is a malus you still struggle with...


Would you be so good as to provide a practical example or two of this?
[/i]

Oh, if you recall back to the Experiment thread, there was something you mentioned about knowing Catholic theology more than a raised Catholic. Now, it very well may be true... but to even make such a statement is... well, arrogant.

But then, I am the last person in the world who can really call someone out for pride. "Let he who is without sin..." and all that. Which actually raises another point... if the sinless are the one's who are supposed to cast stones, but the one sinless man to live DIDN'T do so, where do 'true' believers get off publically attacking others? It's fine enough to believe, say, homosexuality is a sin... but to go and start telling everyone and say those who are are condemned and going to hell... isn't that casting stones, hmmm?

[hr]
I sing of arms, and the man...

[Campbell]

OK Paul i would be very interested to ask you one question, which has plagued me for some time. Perhaps god sent you down to earth to allay my troubled mind.

Here it is.

Why do you feel it is remotely logical to back up religious arguments with quotes from the Bible? It's a matter of belief... and either you are talking to people who believe it already (and thus do not need your help) or who don't. And if they don't believe it, they're not going to be convinced by "no, but it IS true... it says it here. In the...umm.. Bible."

This is what has always amazed/troubed/amused me about people like your good self/gouranga monks (though they do sell Gouranga Mosh Cds, a market you could perhaps explore) and those crazy Facts for Life books people give out.

cheers

[Mr Comedy]

[s]Paul wrote on 12:29, 8th Apr 2005:

You are deceived. The call in the bible is:

"Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?" - II Corinthians 13:5

"Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." - Titus 1:15-16


I'm sorry Paul, but I am a Christian and you are taking the Bible out of context. I will not sit around whilst you maim it.

One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, the Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth. Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
Titus 1:12-16 (Quoted from the KJV so you see that it is the same).

In this passage, Paul talks to Titus about the Pharisical persusasion of thinking, and how they twist the gospel message. Someone saying they are a Christian is different because the Pharisees denied the ressurection of Christ, and his teachings.

So then, what is a Christian?

Brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, the gospel that you have received and in which you are firmly established; because the gospel will save you only if you keep believing exactly what I preached to you--believing anything else will not lead to anything. I taught you... that Christ died for our sins, in accordance with the scriptures, that he was buried; and that he was raised to life on the third day, in accordance with the scriptures.
Corinthians 15:1-4

Someone who believes upon these words is saved.

To further this:
"Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God."
- John 1:12

"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned, he has crossed over from death to life."
- John 5:24

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast."
- Epehsians 2:8-9

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!"
- 2 Corinthians 5:17

"And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand."
- John 10:28

Paul, you wirte counter to what the Bible actually says, and the power is not given to you to decide who is a Christian and who is not. Believe that Jesus died for your sins, and ask for forgiveness it is really that simple. You give Christians a bad name with this untrue gospel that you preach. It's not anything like what most bible believing Christians believe.

[johness]

[s]Paul wrote on 13:02, 8th Apr 2005:
[s]Prophet Tenebrae wrote on 12:50, 8th Apr 2005:
Dear Paul,

You have waxed lyrical on many occasions about the link between the most recent Pope/ Catholic Church and Nazis - do you believe that the Catholic Church has then always been an organisation which has associated and promoted evil?


Yes, the Roman Catholic Church has been evil from its inception. However, it has also to be said that evil does not always appear to be evil. It can sometimes have a beautiful face!



a bit like Richard himself really (if he hasn't ripped it whilst shaving). A beautiful face masking legions of hate

[hr]
[s]Jeremy Clarkson[/s]

[Manic23]

[s]Paul wrote on 13:02, 8th Apr 2005:
[s]Prophet Tenebrae wrote on 12:50, 8th Apr 2005:[i]
Dear Paul,

You have waxed lyrical on many occasions about the link between the most recent Pope/ Catholic Church and Nazis - do you believe that the Catholic Church has then always been an organisation which has associated and promoted evil?


Yes, the Roman Catholic Church has been evil from its inception. However, it has also to be said that evil does not always appear to be evil. It can sometimes have a beautiful face!

[/i]

Right, so I'm a Roman Catholic, and I try to Lead a good life, and not fuck things up for anyone else, and believe in God etc etc etc, but I'm still evil?

What a narrowminded little man you are.

[Paul]

[s]LonelyPilgrim wrote on 13:22, 8th Apr 2005:
[s]Paul wrote on 13:03, 8th Apr 2005:[i]
[s]LonelyPilgrim wrote on 12:44, 8th Apr 2005:[i]
Paul,

Pride, especially seems to be one that it is difficult for 'True Believers' to shake, and I'd say there is some evidence that it is a malus you still struggle with...


Would you be so good as to provide a practical example or two of this?
[/i]

Oh, if you recall back to the Experiment thread, there was something you mentioned about knowing Catholic theology more than a raised Catholic. Now, it very well may be true... but to even make such a statement is... well, arrogant.[/i]

I was merely stating what is generally the state of Roman Catholic laity with whom I have had contact - and there have been a lot of them - from friends and relations, through neighbours. I have also had contact with priests, scholars, apologists, and a couple of bishops - one of whom became Cardinal Winning, all of whom have helped increase my knowledge of the system. However, I usually (there have been a few notable exceptions) eventually get just one of two reactions from them - they either refuse to discuss the matter any further, or else become personal and abusive.

If that appeared as pride, it wasnot meant to. Arrogant? - well, it seems that to have a definitive opinion these days is taken as arrogance. The person without knowledge assumes that the other just has "an opinion" - and to express it forcefully is then "arrogance".

Here is the apostle Paul's appeal to Timothy:

"Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God; Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.
For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus." - I Timothy 1:8-13

That is the truth, but us that not classed as "arrogance" by those who do not have such knowledge?

But then, I am the last person in the world who can really call someone out for pride. "Let he who is without sin..." and all that. Which actually raises another point... if the sinless are the one's who are supposed to cast stones, but the one sinless man to live DIDN'T do so, where do 'true' believers get off publically attacking others? It's fine enough to believe, say, homosexuality is a sin... but to go and start telling everyone and say those who are are condemned and going to hell... isn't that casting stones, hmmm?

The one sinless man DID do so!

"And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem, And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting: And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables; And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.
And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up." - John 2:13-17

"I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father.
Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. Ye do the deeds of your father.
Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God." - John 8:37-47

And the Apostle Peter and Paul did the same. Here part of Peter's sermon at Pentecost:

"But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
... Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it." - Acts 2:14, 22-23

And now, I must get back to work!