Are you going to go to, listen to, or watch Live 8?

[McNugget]

Did anyone else feel sorry for the african girl bob geldof paraded around before madonna performed? she looked confused and terrified of the whole situation and it was as if bob was telling her that she owes the western civilisation music industry for her life and should be forever grateful. Its one thing to do a good deed, but to gloat about it on a wide scale turns it into a selfish act as opposed to a selfless one.

[kas48]

Quoting mcnugget from 17:16, 3rd Jul 2005
Did anyone else feel sorry for the african girl bob geldof paraded around before madonna performed? she looked confused and terrified of the whole situation and it was as if bob was telling her that she owes the western civilisation music industry for her life and should be forever grateful. Its one thing to do a good deed, but to gloat about it on a wide scale turns it into a selfish act as opposed to a selfless one.

i was thinking that myself. probably got kidnapped and dragged there. she looked shit scared (although i must admit that i would be too.

[hr]

The bird with the thorn in its breast, it follows an immutable law. It is driven by it knows not what to impale itself, and die singing. At the very instant that the thorn enters there is no awareness in it of the dying to come; it simply sings and sings until there is not the life left to sing another note. But we, when we put the thorns in our breasts, we know. We know and still we do it. Still we do it.

[steerpike]

Stop being so cynical. Well i hope you enjoyed sitting in the dark, not running any water, not using any electricity yesterday. Admitedly Im not fully convinced of the direct effect that the Edinburgh march will have on Africa either, but i still made the effort to get out of my squalied, fetid flat and cycled (yes, cycled! see what a goody-goody i can be) downtown to the meadows. Took a lot of photos, listened to the speeches - although to be fair some were a bit pantomime-esque: (speaker: 'I can't hear you! let me hear you scream so loud they can hear you right down in London!') And who could forget Madonna yesterday in Hyde Park yelling 'Are you ready to start a revoluuuuuuution?' (crowd screams) Madge: 'i can't hear you.. .i said ARE YOU READY...' - Jesus fucking Christ - the Queen of Reinvention becomes the vanguard of the proletariat. Or the bourgeosie. Or maybe the vanguard of the aging rockstar? No wait, that's Bob and Bono's title...

Anyway, that's beside my point. Being curious as i am i wandered about the meadows in Edinburgh yesterday talking to people, taking photos, listning to speeches and tried to get as much out of it as i could. There was a great atmosphere and I've decided that masse marches on the scale of 225,000 cannot be easily snubbed, regardless of their purpose or outcome. What did it achieve? They've pushed the issue of Africa onto the agenda of the G8, showing that people ARE taking an active interest in global inequities (c'mon, admit it - this is a GOOD thing). Marches like this scare politicians, because of the strength of feeling displayed of a huge group of people, or in better terms, their 'electorate'. The fact that we're even discussing it now - the fact that everyone's discussing it now - is surely something. But what i would like to see develop from here is an interest in the startling levels of poverty n South America, the effects of HIV/AIDS in Eastern Europe and some morals applied to the British arms trade, which is sadly fuelling the most despotic regimes in Africa. Seems that some causes just aren't as sexy as others. But again i digress, apologies.

So Flarewearer - enlighten us ! What would you do in order to get world leaders on your side and get their attention focussed on some of the most crucial issues of the day? Please, elaborate a blue print for us, since you seem so smugly sure that a march in Edinburgh of almost quarter of a million people is pointless. In my books, for that many people to show up, it was impressive, and represents another blow to my arch nemesis, Apathy. Seeing action like that, and then seeing politicians (namely Blair and Brown) taking a keen interest is fantastic, and makes me feel very hopeful for the important events in the coming week.

*awaits with baited breath for response that probably won't come*



[hr]

Nothing is easier than to condemn the evildoer, nothing is harder than to understand him.

F.Dostoevsky

[novium]

Well, for a start, instead of doing something that makes you feel good about yourself but ultimately accomplishes very little, you could oh, I don't know, join the peace corps or something.

Quoting rae from 19:39, 2nd Jul 2005
I can do is march around Edinburgh to show that I'm not apathetic then that's what I'm going to do. Why on earth slag it off? It's something, which is more than's been done before.

[hr]

In America they think 100 years is old and in Britain they think 100 miles is far.

[hr]

boo!

[novium]

you showed you cared, but what did you actually DO?

If you were talking to a starving kid from some god forsaken place, would you feel better saying, "well, to help you, I went to a rock concert! and then I marched around a bit and it really helped my self esteem?"

I'm sorry. I really don't mean to take this all out on you. But if people would start using their BRAINS, all this effort that the extend could actually mean something.

Quoting rae from 13:53, 3rd Jul 2005
Surely, flarewearer and others, you must agree that there are problems in Africa. So you, as a student/graduate, have no music career to flog, no agenda as the leader of a major country. What then, is your brilliant plain for helping the third world? I really would like to hear it. Because if all I did was march, at least I DID something to show that I care about this and it needs to stop. What about you?

[hr]

In America they think 100 years is old and in Britain they think 100 miles is far.

[hr]

boo!

[steerpike]

fair point novium.

However, one great benifit of marches like this is that for many people going on them they can serve as a catalyst. On saturday i saw loads of totts, kids and students - who knows how this protest might have affected them? Perhaps some might set off to educte themselves more on the issues. Some might later go on to do charity work. Some might even go off to become peace corps. One day they might find themselves telling that starving child somewhere that 'i went to a rock concert and marched about a bit - and that's how i became more fully conscious about some of these issues and got involved more.' (maybe a little bit far fetched, but still possible.)

Perhaps im just stating the obvious here, but marches (like the Eidnburgh one on Saturday) have their benifits in that they have the capacity to influence and educate people. hardly a waste of time.


[hr]

Nothing is easier than to condemn the evildoer, nothing is harder than to understand him.

F.Dostoevsky

[Guest]

I went 2 hyde park and it was amazing. the solidarity and the atmosphere. most were there for the right reason. u cud hear a pin drop wen will smith did the clicks n wen they brought the african lady on who had nearly died 20years ago.

live 8 is an amazing thing. i realise that poverty will not be made history. but i damn well hope that it rose awareness n people will start to do more 2 help the situation

[Mr_Biffo]

Quoting mcnugget from 17:16, 3rd Jul 2005
Did anyone else feel sorry for the african girl bob geldof paraded around before madonna performed? she looked confused and terrified of the whole situation and it was as if bob was telling her that she owes the western civilisation music industry for her life and should be forever grateful. Its one thing to do a good deed, but to gloat about it on a wide scale turns it into a selfish act as opposed to a selfless one.

What, they should have saved the life of a more media-savvy African girl? I didn't think she looked particularly confused or terrified, just naturally a bit nervous of going on stage before 5 billion people worldwide.

You are putting an excessively cynical spin on Geldof's actions. I understood her introduction to be entirely straightforward. For those people who say concerts and fundraising like this do no good, here is evidence that they do: someone whose life was saved. To call it 'gloating' and 'selfish' is bizarre.

The film of that girl bone-thin and covered in flies is well-known, and personally I found it pretty moving to see her 20yrs on and know that she was alive and flourishing.

[flarewearer]

Quoting rae from 13:53, 3rd Jul 2005
Surely, flarewearer and others, you must agree that there are problems in Africa. So you, as a student/graduate, have no music career to flog, no agenda as the leader of a major country. What then, is your brilliant plain for helping the third world? I really would like to hear it.

More aid is NOT going to help, there is a phrase and it is called "pissing in the wind." That is all that most "aid", no matter how well intentioned really results in. Take for instance Nigeria, only last week the UN calculated that the various dictators and "democatically elected presidents" of Nigeria alone have embezzeled and defrauded more aid, national wealth and 3rd world debt write offs than the TOTAL AMOUNT OF AID SUPPLIED TO AFRICA IN OVER 40 YEARS! All that supplying any more aid "without strings and conditions" (as the live 8 / G8 lot constantly demand, none of this American aid with stringent conditions please, were protestors!) will do is line further the pockets of Africa's underserving, corrupt elite of ne'er-do-wells.
Look at Ethiopia. Is Ethiopia any better off after 20 years of rock-stars' pity? All that has happened is that there are 50% more starving mouths, there is still war and famine. How is Ethiopia expected to provide basic healthcare and education for the people already there, never mind the 7000 new mouths born every day. So much for Etiopia, how about the Saint Bobs and Saint Midges of the world? Well those rock stars are all certianly a lot better off, thanks no doubt in small part to them being able to flog their albums as a result of their seemingly "caring" roles to the 3rd world. Good old Bono, where would we be without this money-grabbing Irishman of such impeccable double standards. When he's not busy saving the world and berating Western politicians, he is charging £200 for people to go to his gigs, a 100% premium on a special limited-edition U2 iPod or sueing his former make-up artist for attempting to sell something which may, I quote, "lower the value of other U2 merchandise."
Africa isnt actually the complete and total basket-case that is made out to be. Its people are industrious, hardworking and ingenious, in spite of their poor access to education. They are quite willing and able to work themselves out of poverty, if only they would be given a chance, they need to be able to trade with us on an equal footing and develop their own economies and countries. There is a miniscule yet promising African middle class, which is educated and hard working. It needs to be nurtured and encouraged and protected from it's own "leadership" so that it can form the basis of a stable and prosperous society. Africa needs to be able to pull itself up by its bootstraps, and not be hauled kicking and screaming into somewhere it doesnt necceserily want to be by the well-intentioned but misguided and self-serving West.
What Africa is really cursed with, beyond the debt to the West that is always pointed out to be the great evil, is unstable, corrupt, self-serving regimes (like the king of Swaziland, who marries a new wife each year and build a new multi-million pound palace each time, while his people suffer with AIDS and poverty) and perpetual wars over the scraps that they leave behind in diamond resources, oil wealth etc. If you read some African journalism (yes, they do have the ability to produce their own newspapers and they care about better and more important things than what some delusional western "stars" are strutting on some stages around the world) you will see that this is also echoed by Africans themselves. What Africa seems to want is the ability to work, teach and vote themselves out of their own situation. They want an end to the never ending cycle of wars and violence, an end to the never-ending corrupt regimes and an end to the never ending pity and misguided actions of the West, that often cause more damage than good. If you think that countries cannot do this for themselves, a shining example is surely South Korea, 50 years ago it was a war-torn, backwards, agricultural backwater ravaged by years of Japanese domination and internal conflict. Now it is an economic powerhouse with high standards of living and some of the best educated people in the World.
Yes, Afirca DOES need its debts written off, yes, but it cannot be a blank cheque, Afircan leaderships have to be force, bullied and cajouled into action themselves, at present they are incapable of any action as they seek, through the African Union, only to support themselves and maintain their own position. That is why the AU cannot decry the massacre in Darfur or the turmoil in Zimbabwe; it would merely be signing its own death warrant to start on one corrupt regime.
As for "telling our politicians how it is", are you niave enough to believe that they don't actually know? They know just as well, if not a lot better than anyone else how it really is. They also do not have the blinkered view that so many "pop-star economists" do, they know the realities of how Africa, the World and development and politics really work
To close my rant, why is is Live 8 only purports to care about Africa anyway, what about all those other poor, corrupted starving, AIDS cursed countries around the globe that were conveniently left out of the logo? Not photogenic enough?
Well, if there is one thing Live 8 did achieve, it certianly made one HECK of a mess, perhaps thats how much some people really do care; Africa's all very well BUT WE GET TO SEE MADONNA AND U2! EEP!

[Prophet Tenebrae]

I think what amazes me is that people who obviously have no grasp of economics beyond knowing the meaning of "supply" and "demand", suddenly become experts on - in their view - the wholly beneficial practice of free trade with the 3rd world.

Economically you can look at the benefits of Trade and Aid. Generally, because of the nature of the trade and the nature of the aid both are in the long term, DAMAGING to the developing economies (aid undermines the internalised supply of food, basic essentials and so on - trade is damaging because the countries are trading primary goods which because of Engel's law will, in terms of relative value, decrease compared to imports leading to them being screwed).

Not to mention that probably the most important factor for a country to develop economically is political stability - a factor wholly lacking in many of Africa's poorest countries.

The fact people are drivelling on about how it's going to make a change and how people were at the concert for "the right reasons" while as we speak, some of the opening talks on trade are ALREADY faltering just goes to show that childish naiveity and the patronising stories of the newspapers don't actually mean that Live 8 made a difference.

Over one million people marched around London to try and stop Britain going to war and they had most of the country behind them. Glad to see we avoided a second Iraq war because... oh wait WE DIDN'T.

Assuming that the most powerful people are going to listen to you because you subscribe to an ill-conceived albeit purely motivated protest is pointless. Even if they do listen to your vague suggestions it probably won't make a lasting difference because it's all so poorly conceived.

My final thoughts are that saying Live 8 was not a blazing success are not cynicism but realism.

[hr]

IMAGE:www.btinternet.com/~brother.war/white10-2.gif

[rae]

Quoting flarewearer from 18:25, 4th Jul 2005

Quoting rae from 13:53, 3rd Jul 2005
Surely, flarewearer and others, you must agree that there are problems in Africa. So you, as a student/graduate, have no music career to flog, no agenda as the leader of a major country. What then, is your brilliant plain for helping the third world? I really would like to hear it.

As for "telling our politicians how it is", are you niave enough to believe that they don't actually know?

I never said anything about telling politicians how it is. What I DID say - and what you didn't really answer - is what you would do. Since you're clearly expert - what would you do that will fix it? But your answer is clearly nothing. And for some reason that doesn't surprise me.

[hr]

In America they think 100 years is old and in Britain they think 100 miles is far.

[flarewearer]

Quoting rae from 17:42, 5th Jul 2005

I never said anything about telling politicians how it is. What I DID say - and what you didn't really answer - is what you would do. Since you're clearly expert - what would you do that will fix it? But your answer is clearly nothing. And for some reason that doesn't surprise me.

I don't remember claiming to have the solutions to the problems of Africa, what I also didn't do is think that because i spent a few hours wandering around Edinburgh in a white t-shirt to ease my guilty conscience that I some how have the moral highground on discussions pertaining to the problems of Africa and poverty.


[hr]

image:www.magnificentoctopus.com/x/stormy.png

[Zombie Sheep]

Well, I won tickets to the Edinburgh Live8 thing, so we'll see what that turns out like! Apologies for returning to the thread's original topic.

[hr]

This post may be intended in jest and should be read as such. Any queries relating to the seriousness of it should be addressed to the author. The author requests that readers DO NOT follow the advice or requests in this post. This statement is retrospective with regards to all previous sinner posts.

http://www.zombiesheep.name

[rae]

Quoting flarewearer from 21:54, 5th Jul 2005

Quoting rae from 17:42, 5th Jul 2005

I don't remember claiming to have the solutions to the problems of Africa, what I also didn't do is think that because i spent a few hours wandering around Edinburgh in a white t-shirt to ease my guilty conscience that I some how have the moral highground on discussions pertaining to the problems of Africa and poverty.

Fair enough, neither do I. But you seem to think that your apathy and scorn DO give you the moral highground so you can condemn all 225 000 people who decided to get off their ass.

[hr]

In America they think 100 years is old and in Britain they think 100 miles is far.

[Rufus]

Which camp of thinking needs to grow up, I wonder?

Both?

I hate to concede that all the recent Africa hooha has smacked of glory-seeking falsity, but it has. Perhaps that is a symtom of our times though? Genuine altruism seems an increasingly rare human inclination. There is always an ulterior motive.

So, no, of course the demonstrations won't change things, but to have people working together, to have people thinking outside the self-absorbed spheres they inhabit, is progress.

Of a sort.



[hr]

'Do you remember how long the days were when you were a child?'

[flarewearer]

Quoting rae from 00:30, 6th Jul 2005
Fair enough, neither do I. But you seem to think that your apathy and scorn DO give you the moral highground so you can condemn all 225 000 people who decided to get off their ass.

I prefer to think of it as the moral lowground, and your damn right im apathetic and scornful of all this collective, dressed-in-white, wristband-waving conscience-cleansing.

"Phew! I sure hope all those starving Africans are greatful that I got up off my ass today and walked a couple of miles around Edinburgh for THEM."

No, I would feel extremely hypocritcal to get caught up in all that just to go home to my nice, warm, electrically lit house with peltiful food in th ecupboards and flick on the TV to complain that there wasn'te enough coverage of the march (How DARE they miss me doing my bit for Africa!) and then flick through all the simultaneous broadcasts on the BBC (thats the Bobgeldof Broadcasting Corporation) to feel even more collective guilt being told to do something for the poor by multimillionares.


[hr]

image:www.magnificentoctopus.com/x/stormy.png

[Thackary]

Can each individual person by themselves do anything to support a whole continent?
Not likely.

Can a huge group of people get together to show their support and demonstrate that they want to do something to support a whole continent, so that the people with the power to make changes take notice?

Yes.

So that's why they did it.

[Stuart]

Quoting Mr_Biffo from 13:50, 4th Jul 2005

just naturally a bit nervous of going on stage before 5 billion people worldwide.

5 billion?

[Mr_Biffo]

Quoting Stuart from 11:14, 6th Jul 2005

Quoting Mr_Biffo from 13:50, 4th Jul 2005

just naturally a bit nervous of going on stage before 5 billion people worldwide.

5 billion?

They mentioned a few times on Saturday that the broadcast had a potential worldwide audience of 5 billion; the eventual viewing figures were 3 billion according to www.live8live.com.