Quoting ezra from 19:29, 22nd Nov 2005
ii. but so do other kinds of beliefs, e.g. scientific ones
What's a scientific belief?
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Quoting ezra from 19:29, 22nd Nov 2005
ii. but so do other kinds of beliefs, e.g. scientific ones
Quoting ezra from 19:38, 22nd Nov 2005
a belief whose content is a scientific claim, e.g. 'nothing travels faster than the speed of light', or 'fire is phlogiston leaving the candle'
iii. all this shows is that different people have different beliefs; it does not mean that rape is OK if your culture says so.
exterminating Jews in Nazi Germany. Culturally permitted, but morally reprehensible
exterminating Jews in Nazi Germany. Culturally permitted, but morally reprehensible
Again: says you.
Are you trying to tell me that it's just my opinion that genocide is grossly immoral?
You seem happy to simply assert that morality 'exists only in our minds'. What makes you so sure?
What experiment could determine whether pi is a transcendental number? What experiment could determine the result of multiplying two complex numbers? What experiment could determine whether there is a God? Or which system of logic we should be using?
Just because you can't measure it with some kind of scientific experiment doesn't mean that there isn't an answer.
Quoting ezra from 20:10, 22nd Nov 2005
Just because you can't measure it with some kind of scientific experiment doesn't mean that there isn't an answer.
Quoting ezra from 17:26, 22nd Nov 2005
Firstly, self-interest does not provide ethical justifications. The point is precisely that if people act solely in their own interests, many will suffer, and people will as a whole be worse-off (c.f. prisoner's dilemma cases). If you don't give a shit about anyone else, then that provides reason to change your behaviour, not to maintain it.
Quoting ezra from 17:26, 22nd Nov 2005
Secondly, you admit that there can be 'debts of gratitude' between you and, for instance, WW1 veterans, even though you didn't exist at the time when they were fighting. So your ethic isn't entirely self-interested; you accept that we can be under obligations to other people. Now I'm not disputing that we owe those people a debt of gratitude; what I want to know is, given this, why do you think that we don't have any obligations to people in other countries?
Quoting ezra from 17:26, 22nd Nov 2005
Thirdly - and this is a more general point - distance isn't a morally salient feature, and nor is lack of kinship an excuse. Suppose that your sister is travelling in Asia, and badly needs some money in order to purchase medication; the simple fact that she's in Asia doesn't mean that you don't have obligations to her. That's the first claim. For the second, suppose that you pass a child drowning in a pool; you can save the child simply by reaching out. In that case, you are under an obligation to help the child; it doesn't matter whether they are your neighbour's child, or a child on holiday from Devon, or someone who has recently immigrated, or a foreigner who has wound up here by mistake. Like I say, lack of kinship doesn't defuse obligations. So why should you think that you don't have obligations to the distant suffering?
Quoting ezra from 21:06, 22nd Nov 2005
Telex: you misread my post. I wasn't claiming that the statement 'nothing travels faster than the speed of light' depends for its truth on our beliefs. I was claiming that such a statement gives the content of a scientific belief. For instance, you can believe that nothing travels faster than the speed of light. You can believe that things can travel faster than the speed of light. In the second case, you'd be wrong. The disagreement doesn't show anything about the truth - or falsity, or otherwise - of the beliefs.
Quoting exnihilo from 21:14, 22nd Nov 2005
Ethics, ethics, ethics. Sometimes conversations aren't about ethics. Scary, I know.
You must be a wow at dinner parties.
ok, so you think that moral beliefs are just opinions. so what happens when:
i. people engage in an ethical dispute?
- on your view, they are just stating opinions, and there is no disagreement; rather, one person is saying 'my opinion is X', the other is saying 'my opinion is Y'.
ii. people engage in ethical deliberation?
- what are they deliberating about, if morality is just a matter of opinion?
there are true statements which can be tested, argued for, or proven, which are not scientific claims. There are plenty of ways of finding answers which don't boil down to 'making it up' (what do you think goes on in philosophy departments, for instance? perhaps a bad example, from your point of view. what about mathematics departments?)
Quoting Haunted from 14:55, 22nd Nov 2005
As a consequence its almost become a competition to see who can donate the most money, wear the most wrist bands, stand silent in 'respect' for the longest, get the first signature in a book of condolences, leave the most flowers, shed the most tears, etc.
Quoting exnihilo from 21:14, 22nd Nov 2005
Ethics, ethics, ethics. Sometimes conversations aren't about ethics. Scary, I know.
You must be a wow at dinner parties.
Quoting exnihilo from 22:29, 22nd Nov 2005
Well, fine. I'm delighted you hold the ethical truth for all the world, ezra, may it serve you well. But tell me I'm the only one it frustrates, and I'll call you a liar.
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