What is wrong with Conservatism

[Guest]

http://polaris.gseis.ucla.edu/pagre/conservatism.html

I don't agree with everything that the guy says, but it's an interesting arguement.

[munchingfoo]

I only read the first 7 lines and stopped. There is only one word for this, propaganda.

He may have a point, he may not, but to define conservatism so flippantly is a very poor way to put that arguement accross.

[hr]

I'd like to change the world but they won't give me the source code.

[DrAlex]

" " (those are my ditto marks)

Every time I hear a liberal speak, it makes me consider myself conservative that much more. Not so much because I agree with the politics, just that liberals tend to fling more propaganda around and it pisses me off.

[hr]

La loi est dure, mais l'aigle ne chasse pas les mouches.
http://standrews.facebook.com/profile.php?id=37100343

[OhhMy]

The real problem with conservatism is that people are conservative usually for one of the following three reasons.

1) Stupidity - People fail to realise that there are other models that may work better and stick to what they know out of fear of change

2) Selfishness - The current system works for the fortunate so they feel that it should be preserved.

3) Prejudice - The people who lose out in society deserve it either because of their social class, ethnicity, sex, religion or sexual orientation.

(thankfully people in Britain are usually only conservative for reasons 1 or 2.)

[piers]

Quoting ohhmy from 19:30, 16th Jan 2006
The real problem with conservatism is that people are conservative usually for one of the following three reasons.

1) Stupidity - People fail to realise that there are other models that may work better and stick to what they know out of fear of change

2) Selfishness - The current system works for the fortunate so they feel that it should be preserved.

3) Prejudice - The people who lose out in society deserve it either because of their social class, ethnicity, sex, religion or sexual orientation.

(thankfully people in Britain are usually only conservative for reasons 1 or 2.)

I think you are an idiot. That is like me saying socialism is bad because:

1) People are normally socialist because they are lazy and want to milk the rest of society.
2) People are normally socialist because they are stupid and know no better.
3) People are normally socialist because they hate rich people and are jealous of them.

[OhhMy]

1 - Stupidity, as expalined above.
2 - Selfishness, you are rich and dont want to pay as much money in tax.
3, prejudice - self evident.

Yes that is the same as saying people would be socialist for those reasons you have given. However people are generally socialist out of principle. Conservatives however are generally conservative becasuse they wish to maintain their socioeconomic position. Or alternatively because as is often the case (especially in America) conservatism proposes political policies that fit with the prejudices of certain loud minorities, Religous fundamentalists, for example. I would be stupid, if there were other reasons to be Conservative. Explain to me why I should be conservative, if any of your reasons do not fit into the above catagories then I will contemplate voting conservative at the next election.

[Yeats]

The problem is this starts with a false premise:

"Q: What is conservatism?
A: Conservatism is the domination of society by an aristocracy."

This isn't the defenition of conservatism used by most conservatives, hence the argument is entirely false.

[hr]

Some day we shall be glad to remember such things

[Smith]

The way that article should read:

What is conservatism and what is wrong with it?

a)What is conservatism?

Conservatism is the domination of society by an aristocracy.

b)What is wrong with conservatism?

Conservatism is the domination of society by an aristocracy.


Word.

[hr]

We're not drunk, we're multi-millionaires...
IMAGE:img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/ryanlewisjones/burlyman.jpg

[novium]

Or someone dares believe in the principles of individual liberty and small government. How evil of them.

For someone throwing around accusations of stupidity, you should be careful about commenting on American politics, lest the term be applied to yourself as well.

Quoting ohhmy from 19:44, 16th Jan 2006
1 - Stupidity, as expalined above.
2 - Selfishness, you are rich and dont want to pay as much money in tax.
3, prejudice - self evident.

Yes that is the same as saying people would be socialist for those reasons you have given. However people are generally socialist out of principle. Conservatives however are generally conservative becasuse they wish to maintain their socioeconomic position. Or alternatively because as is often the case (especially in America) conservatism proposes political policies that fit with the prejudices of certain loud minorities, Religous fundamentalists, for example. I would be stupid, if there were other reasons to be Conservative. Explain to me why I should be conservative, if any of your reasons do not fit into the above catagories then I will contemplate voting conservative at the next election.

[hr]

"those who wish to be feared must inevitably be afraid of those whom they intimidate"
"In anger nothing right or judicious can be done."

[Haunted]

Why I hate liberals, see website posted.

Harsh to paint them all with the same brush yes, but the good liberals out there really need to start having words with folks like that. Just like the good conservatives need to have words some prominent members of the republican party

[DrAlex]

Everytime you say the words 'Republican Party', Jefferson and Lincoln role over their graves.

[hr]

La loi est dure, mais l'aigle ne chasse pas les mouches.
http://standrews.facebook.com/profile.php?id=37100343

[munchingfoo]

Wow, i didn't realise people got so heated over this shit. Basically politians are cunts (in general, might not even be the majority but in general - yes).

The differences between parties is very vague, as demonstrated by "new labour". You don't always get what you voted for (or indeed never get what you voted for) so there isn't much point getting so bloody heated about an abstraction of politics that actually in reality, not by definition, means nothing.

I find the best thing to do is vote election by election by current policies, not by some weird notion that the colour of a party's banner actually makes any difference to how good they are at fucking up a country.

[hr]

I'd like to change the world but they won't give me the source code.

[David Bean]

First of all, the article linked to is balls. Anybody who begins an essay on the subject of conservatism without noting the myriad different forms in which it can take, is an idiot. In any case, the article makes it explicit that it uses the term in the American sense, which is entirely different to what it means here, either as a political philosophy or as a reference to the party.

Secondly, Ohhmy, you may write like a debater, but you don't seem to be thinking like one today! People are generally socialist out of principle, but conservative out of selfishness? Yet another example of the nauseatingly sanctimonious claptrap we have to put up with from the left. What about the principle that those who earn more, should not be deprived of their earnings on pain of imprisonment? What about those who realise that people acquire their earnings in the first place by providing the goods and services for which people are willing to pay in a free exchange, and thus are rewarded as a direct consequence of their ability to satisfy the needs and desires of others? What about those who realise that there is nothing morally enriching about providing charity in order to avoid legal penalties, but a society wishing to be genuinely caring should be one that encourages charity on the individual's own initiative? Are we to believe that they are somehow unprincipled, whereas those who vote Labour the better to safeguard their Giro cheques whilst they sit on their asses, smoke their Camels and generally live it up in the socialist Promised Land, somehow are?

I'd stick to dinners, if I were you, old chap.

[hr]

I'm your Guardian Angel.

[Haunted]

Quoting DrAlex from 20:10, 16th Jan 2006
Everytime you say the words 'Republican Party', Jefferson and Lincoln role over their graves.

Hence the reason to 'have some words with them'

[Boxers]

Mr Bean you've hit the nail on the head! The problem with liberals is that they don't believe in a true meritocracy, where people are rewarded for working hard (ie lower taxes). Why, in the future, should my hard earned money go towards maintaining the lazy assed lifestyle of some slacker who sits at home all day, contributing nothing at all to the economy or society? I don't mind providing money for people who are less fortunate than I am, but only if they are able and trying to contribute to the economy and society. Fair enough if they can't for legitimate reasons, such as disability etc.

It's also basic economics as well, if you give someone the prosepct of earning money, keeping the majority of it and then being able to constantly better themselves, the majority will take it, and the economy will grow. The other end of the scale here is communism and that obviously doesn't work, both theoretically and in practice!

I don't mind liberal people at all. It just makes me irrate when they go round claiming that conservatives (and I'm not even very conservative, I'm very slightly right of centre) are only interested in themselves, it's blatantly not always the case. But, anyway, so what if I want to have lower taxes and keep more of the money I've worked so hard to get? I don't see anything wrong in that.

[exnihilo]

The problem is in trying to some anyone up by one word, unless you're an out-and-out, raging zealot it's highly unlikely that any political adjective comes even close to describing you correctly.

[OhhMy]

I love you David (platonically of course).

[Midget]

Taxes don't just go to slackers on council estates who do work on the side and afford Sky tv.

It does also fund schools, hospitals, transport, rubbish collection, cleaning the streets, roads, aqueducts, theatre, opera, art, public libraries, military, police, ambulance services, fire engines, coast guards, oh yeah and...

...Universities.

Or would you rather we did without these things?

And don't trump up some private solution, private police??

[hr]

IMAGE:img9.imgspot.com/u/04/241/18/160019.jpg Too far.

[Webbie]

The thing is, Mr Bean, you are in a kind of minority as very few people bother to set out their political beliefs based on thought and analysis, like I believe you do.

So, whereas you have decided to become a conservative out of what you believe to be best for society (whether that be right or wrong - I'm not going into that), many do not. Perhaps that was the gist of the article and ohhmy's thoughts.

Just look at a few of the conservatives here in St Andrews. Social climbers, snobs, talk funny, and run around like pricks with a bottle of Port. What are dirty lefties like myself supposed to think when we look at them?

Either

I'm sure they've set out their beliefs based on years of study and experience

or

twats

[[James]]

Quoting David Bean from 20:14, 16th Jan 2006
whilst they sit on their asses

Sorry to divert... but this reminded me of a comment in another thread by Dave the Explosive Newt:

I'm quite impressed you've managed to go a whole thread without saying 'my ass', 'your ass', 'his/her ass' or talking about someone's ass.

Now I understand what he meant