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[CarolynSD]

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[HappyCamper]

who cares? it's a club for tossers. would you really want to join it?

[CarolynSD]

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[rubbermuffin]

So do girls want to join the men's football club now as well? Well you can't so there!

[hr]'I said I'd enjoyed talking to them a lot, too. I meant it, too. I'd have enjoyed it even more though, I think, if I hadn't been sort of afraid, the whole time I was talking to them, that they'd all of a sudden try to find out if I was a Catholic.'

[CarolynSD]

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[Guest]

So long as the KK don't get 'special treatment' then there existence in the university has no affect on me.
If guys just want to play together by themsleves - then okay, but when they get treated as if they are the most important club that exists in St Andrews, then I get alittle pissed off.
Take the Rectorial Installation. Why did the KK have a line of seats reserved for them? And why the hell did the president of the KK ride in the carriage along with the association president and the Rector himself?
If there are no other reasons for this apart from the fact that they are part of a sexist club, why the hell are the university authorities encouraging this sexist elitism?

[Al]

The "fact" that Principal Irvine made it a condition in 1926 that no females be permitted to join the KK is not new. It has been floating around for years. Perhaps it has resurfaced now because the members of the KK have run out of any credible arguments and are relying upon nonsense.

[hr]We are near waking when we dream we are dreaming.

[CarolynSD]

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[pete]

What joy. The return of the 'we hate the KK' thread.

Why can't you guys focus on something more important like your degrees or bad landlords?

For your info, the KK did not have specially reserved seats. They just got there early and held some seats for themselves just like anyne else could do.

And as for the KK President sitting in the carriage. You might like to know that the carriage is actually the KK's. For no cost they let it be used and made sure it was available as well as taking it back to its garage after the drag. They also followed the drag for the whole route - something I'm sure none of you moaners did. So I hardly think it is unfair to allow the President to sit in his own carriage.

For god's sake do something productive with your lives rather than just complain.

[ghettogirl]

[s]pete wrote on 11:56, 17th Mar 2003:
And as for the KK President sitting in the carriage. You might like to know that the carriage is actually the KK's. For no cost they let it be used and made sure it was available as well as taking it back to its garage after the drag. They also followed the drag for the whole route - something I'm sure none of you moaners did. So I hardly think it is unfair to allow the President to sit in his own carriage.



it does seem to beg the question was there a need other than self elevation for him to be in the carriage though pete? if i lent my friend my car i dont for one minute think im expected to travel around with her all day unless maybe i felt the need to say: look at me everyone look how generous i am. I suspect that this was probably the case. As for the issue of making the carriage available id just like to enquire: is this mode of transport in great demand around these parts?

oh dear i do sound like a pedantic little child. I very much approve of the work of the KK, as i suspect most people do, its just the elitism that appears to provoke adverse reactions. Forgive me i have a barely started essay due in a few hrs and this is an excellent form of procrastination...

[Blessed Benediction]

does this club get money from the uni? is it supported by the uni? (i haven't a clue, please enlighten me)

if either of these is yes than it sounds a bit wrong. some segregation is perfectly acceptable, such as segregated bathrooms dormitories etc.. as they are segregated to protect people (protect being used in a wide & general sense).

do the KK need to exclude women. if say that they need to as the members can be quite insecure this would be an example of why they might need to. maybe the whole spirit is dependant on it's lack of female presence. again, fair enough.

but neither of points seem (to me) good enough for the university to support blatent exclusion.

i'd guess that it's exclusion does more harm than good.

tell me if i've got it wrapped (round my head) a bit. if my justification examples are rubbish &/or weak then feel free to suggest some better ones.

[hr]watches should have a smiley face on them as it's always time to be happy

[Al]

"For god's sake do something productive with your lives rather than just complain."

I don't know, but is it not possible that they consider campaigning to change the KK, thereby changing the university for the better by getting rid of sexism and elitism, is a productive use of time?

[hr]We are near waking when we dream we are dreaming.

[Anon.]

The only people who can change the KK's admissions policy are the KK themselves. And they aren't going to. So, yes, it is a waste of time.

[Prophet Tenebrae]

While I don't doubt Carolyn will not relent until the KK changes or the Sun explodes, I concur that the KK is ultimately not going to change its policy while it's in their hands.

Not just because of "tradition" but for the most mind numbingly obvious reason. Their archaic practices ensure that they're probably the best known and most talked about society in perpetuity. If they changed their policy, then what would distinguish them from other groups?

[Blessed Benediction]

a good point has been raised. the fact that the KK has got this rule means that it gains a bit of extra publicity & adds character to the town & university. however, the questions remains whether it does more harm than good. saying that it is acceptable to have exclusion does send out a not so good message.

the KK would look quite responsible & mature in many ways if they did make a small change to who they allow. however if there is good reason to exclude females then that's fine i guess. however i've not heard any good reason yet.

someone answer my question about whether the university supports this club?

[hr]watches should have a smiley face on them as it's always time to be happy

[rubbermuffin]

For goodness sake, the KK are just a bunch of toffs with nowt better to do. I've never experienced any kind of elitism from them. How many of you have been to the KK ball? I didn't, but if you did and you're moaning, isn't that a bit hypocritical?

PS Check out the next issue of THE VINE for the review of the KK Panto. I gave it an absolute roasting!!!!

[hr]'I said I'd enjoyed talking to them a lot, too. I meant it, too. I'd have enjoyed it even more though, I think, if I hadn't been sort of afraid, the whole time I was talking to them, that they'd all of a sudden try to find out if I was a Catholic.'

[Cola Cube]

Can the KK ban women for any legal reasons? Just wondering.

[Oli]

Going back to what Carolyn said to start off with, I completely agree that the KK should not use this conversation as a reason to exclude women, but should maintain it as part of their interesting and varied history.

I think that if they were to include women, then they would no longer stand out from any other club. It is their exclusivity that affords them the arrogance to represent the university to the outside world.
St Andrews is a university blanketed in tradition. The press love it, and so do visitors to the town. By playing on this interest, the Kate Kennedy Club raises its profile, and by doing so can therefore increase its role in university life, more noticeably in the traditions such as Raisin Weekend, the Rectorial Drag and of course the KK Parade.


And in response to Pete, this didn't start as a "we hate the KK" thread. It was a straightforward, intelligent question that, to my knowledge, hadn't been raised before. Sadly however, there are too many people who don't look into the questions deep enough, and simply jump onto the KK slagging bandwagon.


I personally don't think that the KK should allow women to join. I don't see how the decision would benefit the club, the university or the town.
While I am not necessarily in favour of the KK Club itself or its admission policy, I fully support their actions in providing services for the students of the university year after year.

[Al]

"someone answer my question about whether the university supports this club?"

Yes, the university both actively and tacitly supports the KKC but not as much as they used to.

"Can the KK ban women for any legal reasons? Just wondering."

The KKC is a private association and, as such, have the right to admit, or not admit, whomever they wish. Sadly, they are little boys and so cannot see the harm they cause. Or the fact that they are needlessly excluding a lot of talented people.

"I personally don't think that the KK should allow women to join. I don't see how the decision would benefit the club, the university or the town."

Come off it!! If the Principal had said, in this mythical conversation, to the founders of the KK - "you can have your club as long as you promise never to admit "coloureds", would you support that? Discrimination is discrimination is discrimination. If you tolerate one then you open the door to other, more reprehensible forms of discrimination. The decision to admit women would benefit the club because they would have many more students' talents at their disposal; it would benefit the university because it would lessen its portrayal as a reactionary, overgrown public school; and it would not directly benefit the town, it would not harm it either.

[hr]We are near waking when we dream we are dreaming.

[There is too much to do in life than waste time complaining]

Does it all really matter, there are so many clubs to join and all exclude people for different reasons. The army for example don't allow disabled people in and for a good reason too. The whole arguement is sbout tolerance so if we cant tolerate an organisation who wishes to be single sex there is not much hope for any progress what so ever.
Do women need there own club? If they did imagine the bitchiness - I for one would not want to join.
Segregation exists at all levels of society and I would rather be represented by a club of gentlemen doing charity work than many of the other societies. So let the arguement lie and let all do as they wish.