British Oath of Allegiance

[McK]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7289135.stm

Yes, it's another BBC link.

I find Lord Goldsmith's idea pretty un-British, I have to say, and I don't much agree with it.

What annoys me even more though is that the oaf Jim Mather had stepped in to speak on behalf of 'the people of Scotland' (as this minority Executive seems wont to do rather too much of late) and embarrassing us all with hokey shit like "(our) loyalty is to each other here in Scotland. Sovereignty still lies with the Scottish people."

I won't be told how to display my patriotism (British, Scottish or otherwise) by these two fools.

*prepares self for attack by rabid CyberNats*

[ct3012]

Totally. Why should I have to pledge allegiance to a Queen I don't support? Why should I have to subscribe to an idea of "Britishness" that I don't agree with?

[WashingtonIrving]

I would have hated to have had to do that at school. Do people really think that they can artifically create a sense of Britishness (whatever that even means) with this nonsense?

I'm not rabidly anti-monarchy, maybe our system even has some advantages, but swear allegiance to the Queen? What purpose does that even serve? I'm happy enough being British, but I'm not particularly proud of it. Its not like I had any say in the matter; its an accident of birth.

[hr]

"I said farewell honey, I'll see you Judgment Day"

[Haunted]

Has anyone ever investigated what kind of psychological effect the american pledge of alliegence has on children? Do they say it every day?

[hr]

Now with 100% more corn

[Frank]

The allegiance anyone choosesto display, or feels, or anything like that is surely more valuable or patriotic or whatever if it is spontaneous and not 'encouraged'. Pure, one might call it.

Similarly, if folks are annoyed that some other folks don't feel particularly brititsh...suck it up (to use an American phrase, I think).

That is: You can be as loyal or as disloyal to Britain/Scotland as you like, provided it isn't criminal. Everything else is a bonus (so to speak), surely?

That is the least demanding of the individual and at least rewards those who chose to do something without making it a hassle for the apathetic or otherwise-minded people who would rather opt-out? (So any oath to Britain would be something you arrange yourself)

[hr]

"There is only ever one truth. Things are always black or white, there's no such thing as a shade of grey. If you think that something is a shade of grey it simply means that you don't fully understand the situation. The truth is narrow and the path of the pursuit of truth is similarly narrow."
Also, some years later:
"here we are arguing about a few uppity troublemakers with a bee in their bonnet and a conspiracy theory."

[Jos Dad]

Quoting Washingtonirving from 11:22, 11th Mar 2008
Its not like I had any say in the matter; its an accident of birth.

He is an Englishman,
For he himself has said it!
And it's greatly to his credit
That he is an Englishman.
For he might have been a Rooshian,
A French or Turk or Prooshian,
Or perhaps Italian!

Old satire isn't dead!

[Hennessy]

Those "Republic" characters seem pretty obsessed with the monarchy if you ask me.

I would support such a measure I have to say. A lot of the people who post on the sinner are White and British, including myself, and don't see why we need these things because a lot of the people we mix with (especially in St Andrews) are also White and British. Why is that do you think?

Back on the farm in London, the area around our closest tube station has been nicknamed "Mogadishu" locally because of the huge number of muslim shops and businesses that have opened there. In fact walking down the main street of what, in the far distant past, was a quiet English town, you don't feel like you're in the UK at all, more like you're in a souk in Eygpt or Syria. I know it sounds insensitive or slightly racist to say this but I'm only being honest. Walking down that street, as the smell of kebab or shish wafts over you, and foreign tongues sing out to each other, you feel a modicum of despair that any of these people can be, or want to be considered British. They seem perfectly happy isolated from the rest of the country, and with thousands more arriving each week, they have no need to integrate properly.

For my sake, not theirs, and as a part of the majority in this country, as immigrants still only make up 1/10th of our population, I would feel a lot better if these people had "broken the same bread" I had, declared some interest and pride in their new home. It would make them easier to work with, easier to befriend, and easier to integrate with the white communities who currently shun them or flee further out into the suburbs.

No intention of sounding racist here, apologies if some are offended, but I am trying to be honest, difficult as it is for me

[hr]

"What happened to Spoon?"
"There is no Spoon"
Dog Soldiers

[WashingtonIrving]

So you think the answer to all of that is to pledge allegiance to Britain?

This is a gimmick designed to appeal to idiots.

[hr]

"I said farewell honey, I'll see you Judgment Day"

[MaverickMenzies]

Quoting Hennessy from 14:55, 11th Mar 2008
Back on the farm in London, the area around our closest tube station has been nicknamed "Mogadishu" locally because of the huge number of muslim shops and businesses that have opened there. In fact walking down the main street of what, in the far distant past, was a quiet English town, you don't feel like you're in the UK at all, more like you're in a souk in Eygpt or Syria. I know it sounds insensitive or slightly racist to say this but I'm only being honest. Walking down that street, as the smell of kebab or shish wafts over you, and foreign tongues sing out to each other, you feel a modicum of despair that any of these people can be, or want to be considered British.

Brits are also guilty of this lack of integration. For example, consider the British ex-pats living in isolated communities in Spain, etc.

[Hennessy]

Quoting Washingtonirving from 15:01, 11th Mar 2008
So you think the answer to all of that is to pledge allegiance to Britain?

This is a gimmick designed to appeal to idiots.

[hr]

"I said farewell honey, I'll see you Judgment Day"

I don't see anyone else with any ideas on what to do about this problem, multiculturalism failed totally to integrate these foreign communities, the 7/7 attacks were carried out by people we were told to consider as "British", yet their allegiance lay elsewhere.
It isnt just about swearing an oath, its about a program of induction into British society, rather than a laissez faire "leave them alone and they'll leave us alone" policy.


EDIT: While I agree parts of Spain have been ruined by faux Irish pubs and fish and chip shops, Brits have yet to suicide bomb the Spanish for their hospitality.
[hr]

"What happened to Spoon?"
"There is no Spoon"
Dog Soldiers

[munchingfoo]

I don't know about that, I once ate a dodgy kebab in Spain and the explosion on exit nearly self terminated me!

[hr]

“Argue with an idiot long enough and people will fail to see the difference”

[nighteyes]

And what exactly do they plan to do to people who wont swear? If they were born in this country it is not as if they can be deported. Are we to imprison or fine those who refuse. What a brilliant way to inspire loyalty to your country. Foreign nationals already have to swear allegiance but then they chose to live in this country. I just happened to be born here.

I have always thought the American Pledge to be rather odd. When I was in primary school I was made to say the Hail Mary in French every morning. It neither made me believe in god or French. It is a silly idea.

[hr]

i didnt say i was consistant, just right!

[the Empress]

This is a ridiculous idea. My 'British' identity lies in apathy, a craving for disappointment and a deep-seated need to complain about the weather. To be British is, really, to not talk about it. How could an oath possibly reflect this?! Besides which, I'd be pretty pissed if I was somehow forced to declare Britishness by a UK government, which totally ignores the fact that I have as much right to identify myself as English, as a Scot has to identify themselves as Scottish. I've seen ethnicity questions which offer loads of options, yet the only one I can tick is 'White British'. Having piloted questionnaires, I've found people demanding an English option, and simply ticking 'White other' rather than British. I would certainly never take such an oath, on the simple basis that my allegiance is not to the potentially arbitrary demands or the state or the monarchy, but to my own ethics.

[Scurve Kano]

Yes, I support an oath to an arbitrary border and to a woman I've never met.

I pledge to uphold the rights of imaginary lines and complete strangers.

It is my solemn duty to protect a stripy flag and an unemployed grandmother.


Frak that...

[hr]

"Take me to the Gardens of the Sinner,
Bury me and let me rest in peace
Now the time of truth has come for everyone
The fallen angel stands in victory"
-Gamma Ray

[Super Jock]

It'll never happen, well save in perhaps 1984. Britishness isn't about oaths, that america. I'd rather swear and oath to tea and biscuits. Oh I'm hungry...

[nighteyes]

Now an oath to tea sounds like a great plan.

[hr]

i didnt say i was consistant, just right!

[Odysseus]

I'd prefer to swear an oath of allegiance to Alex Salmond.





*Awaits rabid Unionist response*

[hr]

Walk into the bright lights of sorrow, oh drink a bit of wine and we both might go tommorow, my love...

[ct3012]

Quoting Odysseus from 19:40, 11th Mar 2008
I'd prefer to swear an oath of allegiance to Alex Salmond.





*Awaits rabid Unionist response*

[hr]

Walk into the bright lights of sorrow, oh drink a bit of wine and we both might go tommorow, my love...

I'd be up for that.

*Hides*

[novium]

it depends on where you are, and your school. We said it every day in my kindergarden; and in catholic school (which I was in until I was about 10). We said it sporadically in my middle school (which was not a typical school, so I can't speak to that). And then in high school, we didn't say it at all. Instead, we had a daily fact from history read to us every morning.

In California at least, school districts are wary of being sued over "under god".
I am not sure how you could study the psychological effect. I don't think it was bad. Since I'm pretty sure none of us really thought about or were aware way 'pledging alliegence' meant, it always seemed more of an affirmation of belief in the ideals of the republic.

Quoting Haunted from 13:04, 11th Mar 2008
Has anyone ever investigated what kind of psychological effect the american pledge of alliegence has on children? Do they say it every day?

[hr]

Now with 100% more corn

[hr]

Neither the storms of crisis, nor the breezes of ambition could ever divert him, either by hope or by fear, from the course that he had chosen

[LonelyPilgrim]

From kindergarten through the 5th grade I said the Pledge every day. Starting in 6th grade and up through 12th, it was read over the PA system every morning, and we just stood with our hands over our hearts and eyes on the flag, which was in every classroom.

[hr]

Self-control is the chief element of self-respect; self-respect is the chief element of courage. - Thucydides