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Scottish Independence

Postby Charlemagne on Sat Apr 19, 2008 9:33 am

I am sure all the unionists among you will agree that this is serious stuff:

http://www.snp.org/node/13662

Personally I believe independence will come within 10 years. Yet despite these high figures and dramatic changes in Scottish public opinion, the unionist parties continue to refuse to include autonomy as an option in any future referendum. I think they will suffer badly in any future elections... what about the sinners? (I ask, expecting the answer "no?")
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Re:

Postby Gealle on Sat Apr 19, 2008 10:05 am

All that worries me is that Sturgeon is as scary as Wendy Alexander.

If independence comes, by mandate from the majority, then it comes. If it doesn't, it doesn't.

It strikes me as interesting that on the global stage, at a time when institutions like the EU are growing and creating an international sense of European identity, we see a rise in the number of small nation states coming into being.

...Let us hope history is not like a river...

[hr]

So someone asked me "What is it you do?". I thought about it for a minute. Then I thought about it a little more. All the while I probably looked like I was staring in to space, struggling for an answer. And I was. There was only one response I could really give.

"I make sure the shit stays off the fan."
So someone asked me "What is it you do?". I thought about it for a minute. Then I thought about it a little more. All the while I probably looked like I was staring in to space, struggling for an answer. And I was. There was only one response I could really give.

"I make sure the shit stays off the fan."
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Re:

Postby Grant on Sat Apr 19, 2008 10:22 am

If it happens it happens.

I think the increase in small countries "raising against" the EU etc is because people may feel their identity is being lost, or controlled/altered to fit the identity of another place.

Hell, ive always said "multicultrual...no culture". I see it like a painting; if you add too much colour, you just end up with a painting with no strong identity. Of course, I dont mean colour here literally to mean race, nor am I suggesting we should have uniracial countries. I just think perhaps people should less expect their accomdating country to adapt to them, rather they should adapt to that country. I would expect no different if I myself emigrated to another country (here's hoping...).
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Re:

Postby 12giraffes on Sat Apr 19, 2008 11:15 am

Quoting Grant from 11:22, 19th Apr 2008
I just think perhaps people should less expect their accomdating country to adapt to them, rather they should adapt to that country. I would expect no different if I myself emigrated to another country.


I absolutely, 100% agree with that. I said something similar to a group of friends once, and more than one of them seemed shocked at my statement. But it's how I feel, if I were to move to a country with a different way of life than that I'm used to in Scotland, then I'd be the one who'd have to adapt to a new environment. The environment shouldn't have to adapt to me. Punkt.
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Re:

Postby theshadowhost on Sat Apr 19, 2008 11:57 am

Quoting 12giraffes from 12:15, 19th Apr 2008
Quoting Grant from 11:22, 19th Apr 2008
I just think perhaps people should less expect their accomdating country to adapt to them, rather they should adapt to that country. I would expect no different if I myself emigrated to another country.


I absolutely, 100% agree with that. I said something similar to a group of friends once, and more than one of them seemed shocked at my statement. But it's how I feel, if I were to move to a country with a different way of life than that I'm used to in Scotland, then I'd be the one who'd have to adapt to a new environment. The environment shouldn't have to adapt to me. Punkt.


when i moved to Scotland I adapted to the way of life here. I wear a kilt and eat battered haggis every day.

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Re:

Postby Bizarre Atheist on Sat Apr 19, 2008 2:04 pm

Quoting theshadowhost from 12:57, 19th Apr 2008
when i moved to Scotland I adapted to the way of life here. I wear a kilt and eat battered haggis every day.

[hr]

Image


When I moved to Scotland I tried haggis for the first time and found it to be delicious - it's now one of my favourite foods. I also bought a kilt which I wear to black tie events on both sides of the border when my DJ is elsewhere/needs cleaning or just when I feel like a change.

I have grown to really love Scotland and a lot of things about it, and I now find it astonishing when English family and friends have never visited Scotland and claim not to want to.

Independance? Necessary? Interesting? Relevant? Not any more so than Welsh or Cornish inependance if you ask me.

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Re:

Postby MJC on Sat Apr 19, 2008 3:11 pm

Quoting 12giraffes from 12:15, 19th Apr 2008
Quoting Grant from 11:22, 19th Apr 2008
I just think perhaps people should less expect their accomdating country to adapt to them, rather they should adapt to that country. I would expect no different if I myself emigrated to another country.


I absolutely, 100% agree with that. I said something similar to a group of friends once, and more than one of them seemed shocked at my statement. But it's how I feel, if I were to move to a country with a different way of life than that I'm used to in Scotland, then I'd be the one who'd have to adapt to a new environment. The environment shouldn't have to adapt to me. Punkt.


I think that this is completely irrelevant to the discussion of Scottish independence. I have never before heard anyone claim a massive cultural difference between the Scottish and the rest of the United Kingdom.

However I think that you make a perfectly valid point if you were talking about immigration as a whole.
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Re:

Postby niall on Sat Apr 19, 2008 6:04 pm

If scotland gain independence, it will be with a SNP government, but i don't see the SNP winning their first general election after independence. I think there are a lot of people who, politically, align themselves with one of the other parties, but want independence.
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Re:

Postby TCT on Sat Apr 19, 2008 6:15 pm

Quoting niall from 19:04, 19th Apr 2008
If scotland gain independence, it will be with a SNP government, but i don't see the SNP winning their first general election after independence. I think there are a lot of people who, politically, align themselves with one of the other parties, but want independence.



There are indeed some. The SNP is, to an extent, a 'gimmick' party insofar as many of those who vote for it do so only with the aim of achieving independence rather than, say, agreeing with their policy on secondary education or on transport.
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Re:

Postby rob 'f*ck off' wine boy on Sat Apr 19, 2008 6:18 pm

Forgive me for my ignorance, but if that is indeed the case then why hasn't a party been formed with Scottish independence as part of its manifesto whose policies are more in line with what people want?
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Re:

Postby Grant on Sat Apr 19, 2008 8:03 pm

Quoting MJC from 16:11, 19th Apr 2008
Quoting 12giraffes from 12:15, 19th Apr 2008
Quoting Grant from 11:22, 19th Apr 2008
I just think perhaps people should less expect their accomdating country to adapt to them, rather they should adapt to that country. I would expect no different if I myself emigrated to another country.


I absolutely, 100% agree with that. I said something similar to a group of friends once, and more than one of them seemed shocked at my statement. But it's how I feel, if I were to move to a country with a different way of life than that I'm used to in Scotland, then I'd be the one who'd have to adapt to a new environment. The environment shouldn't have to adapt to me. Punkt.


I think that this is completely irrelevant to the discussion of Scottish independence. I have never before heard anyone claim a massive cultural difference between the Scottish and the rest of the United Kingdom.

However I think that you make a perfectly valid point if you were talking about immigration as a whole.


my point was about immigration as a whole, not any England:Scotland rivalry.
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Re:

Postby Hennessy on Sat Apr 19, 2008 8:07 pm

To be fair, in response to the gist of this thread, the only reason the SNP are in minority government is largely due to what was seen as a widespread "protest vote" against labour last May.

Also an independent Scotland would have to deal with burden of an abnormally large public sector, declining North Sea oil stocks (hence declining revenue) in the future, and of course a lack of influence in Westminister, which has profited Scottish politicians in the past and at present.

Which is why I'm a unionist, but I respect everybody's right to their own view and hold no grudge against seperatists and Scottish nationalists.

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Re:

Postby McK on Sat Apr 19, 2008 9:14 pm

Quoting rob 'f*ck off' wine boy from 19:18, 19th Apr 2008
Forgive me for my ignorance, but if that is indeed the case then why hasn't a party been formed with Scottish independence as part of its manifesto whose policies are more in line with what people want?


There are other parties who have independence as part of their manifesto: Solidarity and the Scottish Socialist Party are examples.

'What people want' is a pretty nebulous concept, of course. I say that because the SNP are the best known pro-independence party that's why they get the biggest number of pro-independence voters.
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Re:

Postby niall on Sun Apr 20, 2008 1:52 pm

Quoting McK from 22:14, 19th Apr 2008
Quoting rob 'f*ck off' wine boy from 19:18, 19th Apr 2008
Forgive me for my ignorance, but if that is indeed the case then why hasn't a party been formed with Scottish independence as part of its manifesto whose policies are more in line with what people want?


There are other parties who have independence as part of their manifesto: Solidarity and the Scottish Socialist Party are examples.



and what is the point creating more independence based parties? All that happens is the vote is diluted and Labour/conservative win anyway. That's what happened around the country with a lot of the labour protest candidates; in my constituency, i think there were 4 independents running on almost the same manifesto, if they had combined, then they might have made a list msp.
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i dont like them but...

Postby Guest on Sun Apr 20, 2008 2:05 pm

they have followed through on promises which make a difference. this week my brother who just graduate from st andrews received a letter stating that he does not have to pay a graduate endowment anymore, exactly what we were promised. the "gimmick" of independence is not exactly true, they have done more than just raise this issue. i still vote lib dem...
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Re:

Postby TCT on Sun Apr 20, 2008 2:16 pm

Quoting from 14:10, 20th Apr 2008
they have followed through on promises which make a difference. this week my brother who just graduate from st andrews received a letter stating that he does not have to pay a graduate endowment anymore, exactly what we were promised. the "gimmick" of independence is not exactly true, they have done more than just raise this issue. i still vote lib dem...



Actually not 'exactly what we were promised'. Fiona Hyslop - Education Secretary - promised a lot more re scrapping student debt before the election. It was all there on her website until very recently when mysteriously the conflicting material, between pre-election promise and the reality of what the SNP are actually doing, disappeared.

As for the other pro-independence parties, not all have the same manifesto. SNP has a rather different economic policy to, say, Solidarity. So combining their forces to vote through more pro-independence MSPs would lead to a mish-mash of policies which would not gel at all.
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Re:

Postby WashingtonIrving on Sun Apr 20, 2008 2:51 pm

Quoting Hennessy from 21:07, 19th Apr 2008
To be fair, in response to the gist of this thread, the only reason the SNP are in minority government is largely due to what was seen as a widespread "protest vote" against labour last May.

Also an independent Scotland would have to deal with burden of an abnormally large public sector, declining North Sea oil stocks (hence declining revenue) in the future, and of course a lack of influence in Westminister, which has profited Scottish politicians in the past and at present.

Which is why I'm a unionist, but I respect everybody's right to their own view and hold no grudge against seperatists and Scottish nationalists.

[hr]

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"There is no Spoon"
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I do think that the way Labour fought that election was nothing short of shameful. I don't recall anything positive from them, it was all attacks on the SNP's alleged incompetence and lack of experience, with all sorts of scare stories in the papers.

At what point does it stop being a 'protest vote'? A lot of people have been very angry with Labour for a very long time.

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Re:

Postby Starla on Sun Apr 20, 2008 4:42 pm

Quoting from 14:10, 20th Apr 2008
they have followed through on promises which make a difference. this week my brother who just graduate from st andrews received a letter stating that he does not have to pay a graduate endowment anymore, exactly what we were promised. the "gimmick" of independence is not exactly true, they have done more than just raise this issue. i still vote lib dem...


Yeah, but where's the money coming from?Like the money to make prescriptions cheaper, it's got to come from somewhere.

NB Of course, I don't object to not having to pay my endowment fee :P

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Re:

Postby purringpickles on Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:38 am

Quoting theshadowhost from 12:57, 19th Apr 2008
Quoting 12giraffes from 12:15, 19th Apr 2008
Quoting Grant from 11:22, 19th Apr 2008
I just think perhaps people should less expect their accomdating country to adapt to them, rather they should adapt to that country. I would expect no different if I myself emigrated to another country.


I absolutely, 100% agree with that. I said something similar to a group of friends once, and more than one of them seemed shocked at my statement. But it's how I feel, if I were to move to a country with a different way of life than that I'm used to in Scotland, then I'd be the one who'd have to adapt to a new environment. The environment shouldn't have to adapt to me. Punkt.


when i moved to Scotland I adapted to the way of life here. I wear a kilt and eat battered haggis every day.

[hr]

Image


hahaha HAHAHAHAHA
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Re:

Postby purringpickles on Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:42 am

Quoting TCT from 15:16, 20th Apr 2008
Quoting from 14:10, 20th Apr 2008
they have followed through on promises which make a difference. this week my brother who just graduate from st andrews received a letter stating that he does not have to pay a graduate endowment anymore, exactly what we were promised. the "gimmick" of independence is not exactly true, they have done more than just raise this issue. i still vote lib dem...



Actually not 'exactly what we were promised'. Fiona Hyslop - Education Secretary - promised a lot more re scrapping student debt before the election. It was all there on her website until very recently when mysteriously the conflicting material, between pre-election promise and the reality of what the SNP are actually doing, disappeared.

As for the other pro-independence parties, not all have the same manifesto. SNP has a rather different economic policy to, say, Solidarity. So combining their forces to vote through more pro-independence MSPs would lead to a mish-mash of policies which would not gel at all.


If anyone is interested in reading information on websites that has "mysteriously" disappeared, you can use - http://www.archive.org to search for periodic archived pages from the net and read the pages as they were at the set updated dates.

Facetiously, I'm not sure why Scotland really wants to be independent, look at the ruling cabinet in Westminster- they are mostly Scottish anyway!!!
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