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Dr Who is a national embarrasment

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Dr Who is a national embarrasment

Postby Hennessy on Sat May 17, 2008 11:28 pm

There's a title to stir the passions I'll bet.

Whenever I watch Dr Who now I can never shake the feeling that American producers of BSG and SG: Atlantis are also watching this dross the Beeb calls one of it's flagship programs and thinking to themselves that Britain can't do sci-fi.

Why? British shows, especially comedy, are being lapped up across the pond, yet Dr Who is nothing short of a national embarrasment. Bad soap opera acting, utterly pointless and boring storylines, and worst of all (and this is my real gripe), shit production values.

So the BBC can do beautiful photography, epic documentaries with excellent computer graphics, some of the best acting in the world, gripping and engaging storyline, but can't put all (or even most) of these into one show. And don't give me that "but we can't afford it" rubbish, the BBC could axe it's ventures into reality tv and daytime gameshows (best left to ITV anyway), and have enough money left over to completely over haul the show and hire on decent actors/writers/set designers/CGI editors.

After watching the show tonight I'm seriously considering not bothering watching it again. And I like Dr Who, it just can't go on being both camp and boring at the same time, it needs to either step up to the plate and compete seriously with American imports, or acknowledge it is just a big joke and drop the "serious" stuff altogether (David Tennent can't do serious anyway).


EDITED because I curously put "haul over" instead of "overhaul" in the third paragraph..
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Re:

Postby rob 'f*ck off' wine boy on Sat May 17, 2008 11:35 pm

Seconded.
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Re:

Postby WashingtonIrving on Sat May 17, 2008 11:49 pm

I sort of agree. The one tonight was hideous. Certainly, there is no comparison with BSG. I don't think we should try to copy a show like BSG though, did anyone see a remake of Quatermass on bbc4 a few years ago? Thats the sort of weird stuff the bbc should be producing. I'll take interesting stories over glossy production any time.

I don't think the problem is budget, its not the special effects that make a show like BSG good, its the quality writing, storylines and characters. Dr Who has a quality character, but the writing and stories are usually terrible.

And I wish they'd encounter some aliens that weren't bad guys sometimes. And leave Earth. And kill Catherine Tate.

Finally - a giant wasp? I mean, seriously, a giant wasp? What?

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Re:

Postby ARTooD2 on Sat May 17, 2008 11:49 pm

Why should it have to compete with any of those shows? Its not the same sort of show.

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Re:

Postby Hennessy on Sun May 18, 2008 12:15 am

Quoting WashingtonIrving from 00:49, 18th May 2008



And kill Catherine Tate.

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And Kill Catherine Tate. And Kill Catherine Tate. And Kill Catherine Tate. And then just in case she hasnt been done in with enough vigour. Kill her again. Once for luck!

Kill Catherine Tate

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Re:

Postby schmod on Sun May 18, 2008 12:24 am

After seeing the title of this post, I was sort of expecting an incoherent rant, but you make quite a few good points.

It's a shame that the current generation has shyed away from sci-fi, because it'd been so campy in the past. BSG and SG:Atlantis are legitimately good shows. (The current season of BSG is quite good, I might add...)

It's a shame too, because the BBC are capable of some incredibly good programming in virtually every other department. If they could pull their act together, I'm sure that they could come out with something really fantastic.
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Re:

Postby Han on Sun May 18, 2008 12:27 am

I disagree - Doctor Who is a different type of show to BSG or SG, and I do think it can get away with some of the deeper themes, despite being largely intended for a younger audience.

In fact, I think this season has been stronger across the board in terms of acting and writing than series 3 - The Fires of Pompeii as a case in point = although I wish Stephen Moffat would write more - he definitely provides the iconic storylines e.g. The empty child or Blink

I do agree that tonight's show was a bit...bonkers, but I found it highly entertaining because it wasn't trying to be serious. It was a bit of relief from the last three episodes anyway.

Also, I was absolutely dreading Catherine Tate as a companion but now I love her! Her character is a nice change from the others that tend to swoon over the doctor!

I guess everyone's allowed their opinion, but, Hennessy, I would ask you to substantiate the 'utterly pointless' part of the storylines argument...if only for interest's sake :-)
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Re:

Postby orudge on Sun May 18, 2008 12:33 am

Quoting Han from 01:27, 18th May 2008
In fact, I think this season has been stronger across the board in terms of acting and writing than series 3 - The Fires of Pompeii as a case in point = although I wish Stephen Moffat would write more - he definitely provides the iconic storylines e.g. The empty child or Blink


Well, luckily enough, the next two episodes are Moffat episodes. Hopefully they'll be as good as his previous ones - I think his episodes have probably been some of my favourites from each series.

As for the whole comments about Doctor Who not being a "serious" sci-fi programme - well, it's not trying to be. While they've tried to tidy up its image a bit from the old series, where it was quite blatantly rubbish (in a nice sense, but still rubbish), it's still intended as a piece of Saturday night family entertainment, and not a hardcore piece of sci-fi. Torchwood was more an attempt at such a thing - depending on your point of view, not a very good one (although the second series was vastly better than the first in my opinion), but certainly moreso than Doctor Who.

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Re:

Postby Thalia on Sun May 18, 2008 1:19 am

I agree - Doctor Who was always intended as a show for the family, something parents can sit and watch with their kids. You couldn't do that with BSG.

On the other hand, Doctor Who would be an awesome premise for a serious story - the tortured time lord, last of his kind, travelling the galaxy. That comes through well in some episodes of the series, but in others it's just a bit over the top.

I would love for someone to come up with a good british sci-fi/fantasy series that could rival BSG or Stargate but it seems unlikely to happen. The attempt with Torchwood was held back by the shoddy writing and characters though it is improving (i think killing owen twice in one series was a huge improvement for me :P)


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Re:

Postby novium on Sun May 18, 2008 4:28 am

david tennant is marvelous, and can completely do serious. But he's an actor, and is thus somewhat limited by the scripts etc.

Sometimes it gets too ridiculous. Like this last episode...it was a little bit too silly and contrived, even for doctor who, and fatally, boring. If it weren't for david tennant and catherine tate, it would have been completely unwatchable.

And yes, I do like catherine tate. Which is surprising, as I kind of expected to hate her. But the thing is, they finally have a character and an actress who is allowed to show some damn backbone.

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Re:

Postby Colleen on Sun May 18, 2008 2:18 pm

I don't think you're comparing Doctor Who to the right kind of the program; BSG is a Serious Television Program for Serious People who like Serious Drama. Doctor Who is not; it's meant to be a program that can be shown at 7pm on a Saturday night as families sit down and eat their tea.

There's been an awful lot of great Doctor Who in the last four years, although saying that I shamelessly enjoyed the Sontaran two-parter. There are some serious parts of it, and there's some bits that inevitably won't be. I enjoyed last night's episode because it was just a bit silly, and that's what Doctor Who has the freedom to do. Although it was originally intended to be free of monsters and was meant to be a serious and educational program, that quickly changed.

(Doctor Who and Torchwood also enjoy pretty good followings and ratings in America, by the way. So not really a national embarrassment on that front.)

Although I enjoy Torchwood, I'll put in a vote for a real sci-fi program; although Blake's 7 is being remade, so you never know.

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Re:

Postby Haunted on Sun May 18, 2008 2:34 pm

IT'S A FUCKING KIDS SHOW.

You don't see me trying to point out the obvious flaws of MI High compared to CSI do you?

However, yes British Sci-fi is indeed in a sorry state. Though I do have high hopes for upcoming Blakes 7 remake the tagline for which is "like what the BSG remake did".

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Re:

Postby Telinar on Sun May 18, 2008 2:39 pm

I love this series of Doctor Who more than the previous 3. Granted, it maybe doesn't have the seriousness of BSG or Stargate: Atlantis (the latter of which has developed a humour all of its own. Thank you Rodney McKay), but like it's been stated, it's a family program at heart. But it has the whole Shrek type double appeal to it.

Kids can watch it and enjoy it for the action, for the obvious jokes and for the entertainment value. Adults can watch it for the darker and more mature themes it contains. Tennant does the tortured survivor guilt really well, and was easily the best bit of the last episode (The Doctor's Daughter) which was rather silly on the whole. The look on his face after the conversation with Donna about his family when Jenny rushed up to him all excited was amazing. Plus the son's affair with the servant boy was played well this episode I thought, touching at the end where there could be no mourning for his lost lover. Fans are treated with continuity left right and centre, including fan in jokes (UNIT's dating uncertainty for one).

And then there's Catherine Tate. She's proved to be rather polarising. Some people hate her (possibly just because it's Catherine Tate but I don't know), and others love her. I fall into the latter category. I was sceptical at first given her performance in the Christmas Special as a gobby office worker, but this series her character has grown. She's willing to stand up to the Doctor and take the piss out of him (I'm going to say something to you Doctor, that I've never said to you before...I think you're wrong.) Aaaand, NO ROMANCE SUBPLOT! If there's been one thing that's annoyed me it's the romance, it just seems rather contrived. Take the end of the Sontaran episodes, the Doctor reappears after preparing to sacrifice himself. What happens? Martha hugs him, Donna smacks him! Brilliant!

Comparing Doctor Who to BSG is like comparing Shrek to Lord of the Rings. Both are good in their own ways, but neither captures the same audience.

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Re:

Postby Haunted on Sun May 18, 2008 3:18 pm

More BSG movies in the works.
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Re:

Postby thePontificator on Sun May 18, 2008 4:16 pm

Bollocks it is, it's one of the most popular shows on tv right now mainly because it's aimed at a family audience rather than the niche market that BSG is aimed at.

If you're worried about production values consider this. BSG can use the same sets, props, actors and CGI models for the majority of its episodes. Doctor Who can use two actors and three props in each episode but otherwise has to have a completely new cast, location, situation etc. for every story and do this all in the budget they use to make an episode of Silent Witness. It's hardly surprising that BSG looks better given the circumstances.

Personally I've thought most of this series of Doctor Who has been a bit meh, and after last week's failed attempt at gritty drama was quietly relieved they were doing a comedy episode.
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Re:

Postby Jono on Sun May 18, 2008 5:16 pm

Say what you want about Dr. Who, but don't you dare compare it to BS(Apt)G, and SG:Milkmaid!

Stargate SG1 as a franchise died along with Daniel's first bout of terminal radiation poisoning! After which, they abandoned any pretext of Earth being on the back-foot against a superior evil alien race; and spent the next eleven billion series' swanning around the galaxy in their fucking star-destroyer!

I was even more put off by Atlantis; which to my mind is nothing more than a cynical attempt to cash-in on the storyline of the first series all over again! Considering how poor Season One was compared to the follow up outings; I'm quite impressed that Atlantis managed to fuck the dialog up even worse than they did the first time around!

As for BSG: I don't like it. I really can't stand that new-agey camera-work; the whole frame wobbling about as though the camera man was told to get drunk before following the shot. But the main reason is because I genuinely enjoy 70's Sci Fi. The new iteration is an impressive and well written piece of work. But I feel like the charm and fun of the original version has been sacrificed as a result. It's like they've re-made Yes-Minister and decided the best way to go was to replace all the witty dialog with gritty one-liners; while replacing the delicate intrigue with Kung Fu! It stands up great on it's own merits; but it's just not the same series'. If they changed all the names and re-named the series Alien Arse-Fight, I doubt anyone would even notice the parallels!

Anyway: Dr Who... I've run out of bile!

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Re:

Postby Jono on Sun May 18, 2008 5:35 pm

Found some in my coffee:

I enjoy Dr. Who because there is no other series on TV that makes such up to-the-minute use of social satire, (Health & Safety; Happy Slappy Hoodies, etc), or makes such good use of British context in a Sci-fi setting!

I did think the Daughter episode was a load of dick however. I don't enjoy being rushed through, in 45 minutes, the sort of emotional turmoil that should be fleshed out over a decent stretch of time. While that was probably the whole point of the episode (along with the 7 day, hundred generations war) It wasn't pulled off very well. In the end it just provoked empathy and heckling!

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Re:

Postby Ragamuffin on Sun May 18, 2008 7:48 pm

Seriously though? Boris Johnson is mayor of the capital, and the nation should be hanging its head over a kids TV show?!

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Doctor Who: Inconsistent

Postby Frank on Sun May 18, 2008 8:11 pm

Even within episodes, it can be horridly inconsistent. I can enjoy an episode on the whole, or enjoy the ideas and themes, but whilst I'm doing that there'll be horrible acting. Or terrible lines. Or vice versa. (Cref: Dickens episode. Great, but Gwynneth was acted awfully [either that or I can stand welshness])

Similarly I can really dislike the episode, but love parts of them for some really cool bits. (Cref: Fear Her, the olympics episode. Really didn't enjoy the episode, but rather enjoyed the scene where the Doctor reveals to Rose "I was a father once...")

Similarly, some episodes are excellent, despite (m)any flaws (Cref: Empty Child/Doctor Dances, excellent stuff but Captain Jack "Did anyone order a really big ham?" Harkness was a bit...trying). Others have almost no redeeming features etc.

In any case, whilst BSG is fairly consistent, few of the episodes 'hit' me as much as a fair few of the Doctor Who episodes (Empty Child/Doctor Dances, Girl in the Fireplace, Blink, Human Nature/Family of Blood etc).

Still, we'll see how it goes. It's a family show, and for the fact that it connects as much as it does, I'm happy enough with it. I have, however, found series 4 to be more consistent, but less good. (No Blink goodness, so far :( )

It really could do without all the guff. Without the rubbish bits, it would compete with BSG and SG:Atlantis as it'd have Serious Drama for Series People and action-romp-sci-fi and family entertainment.

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Re:

Postby Rrrr on Sun May 18, 2008 9:18 pm

Forgive my ignorance... Cref?

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