Bad spelling should be accepted

[Oli]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7546975.stm

I'm sure this will be a rich subject for discussion.
Personally, I think that the language has been stable for a good while now, and is unambiguous. Accepting "variant spellings" (or "mistakes") may jeopardise our understanding of each other.

I think that now we're using written communication more than ever, it pays to ensure we're spelling things correctly so as to avoid misunderstandings.

[Unreg Bob]

Quoting oli from 18:18, 7th Aug 2008
it pays to ensure we're spelling things correctly so as to avoid misunderstandings.

I don't think anyone would be confused by the word variations listed. He simply suggested that all the words that contradict normal spelling rules should be accepted when spelled as one would think they should be.

It may go a long way to remove some of the snobbery that surrounds the English language, but then again I guess the snobbery adds fun.

[Power Metal Dom]

Bad spelling is just about forgivable but bad grammar is not



[hr]

Like flames on fuel...upon metal I drool

[Delts]

Bad spelling should not be acceptable. It makes you look like an eejit.


[hr]

Quotes: For when you can think of nothing to say yourself.

[meow]

I really don't agree with it.
Bad spelling should not be accepted.
It's not because people are stupid and can't spell for shit that we should lower our boundaries to make them feel better.
There's a reason why it's called "bad" spelling. What's next? Accepting "bad" maths? Accepting "bad" behaviour? Can you imagine the consequences of that?
We have to draw the line somewhere.
I'm not expecting everyone to spell or use grammar perfectly. Fuck knows, I am still learning and can make horrible language mistakes sometimes. All I'm saying is that those people who are not good with the english language (or any other language for that matter) will be good at something else. I'm sure they wouldn't like it if I came along, knowing nothing and getting everything wrong about THEIR subject but still expecting to get some form of recognition saying I actually do know something about it.
It's ridiculous and unacceptable.
Hope this post is not too jumbled up, I feel rather strongly towards this topic and sometimes can't get my thoughts across too well.

[Unreg Bob]

Quoting DeViLSG from 22:07, 7th Aug 2008
...What's next? Accepting "bad" maths? Accepting "bad" behaviour? Can you imagine the consequences of that?

It's hardly equivalent considering spelling affects nothing other than how well the other person can understand you. I don't think anyone would be confused if I used the word 'arguement' instead of 'argument'. I think the consequences might be that some idiot like yourself would take time out his day to correct me. Bad maths on the other hand would make trains crash and buildings fall down, so I think it is clear which one is more important to society. (That is spelling and not the English language before someone has a rant.)

I can understand that there is also a social aspect behind it such that if you and write well it is clear you have been educated well and you will have more authority. From that point of view it makes sense that people want to spell correctly and so I don't think the variations will be widely used.

[Gealle]

Not difficult to guess that we've a scientist amongst us here.

Frankly, if people can't take the time and patience to learn how to spell correctly, I can't be bothered taking the time to translate their drivel.

I deal with colleagues who send documents and reports to clients in respect of cases worth vast sums of money. Their writing skills are absolutely shocking in some cases, and I would personally be insulted to receive a report from a professional organisation that had linguistic errors in it. Frankly, I cringe to think that a client has received some of the stuff I see. If something's good enough to be done professionally at work, it's good enough to be done professionally at home.

At the end of the day, ask yourself what your 'personal brand' is. If you're happy with being seen as someone who's happy to settle for second best when it comes to presenting themselves via the written word, don't be surprised if some people consider you second best. Full stop.

Quoting Unreg Bob from 22:38, 7th Aug 2008

Quoting DeViLSG from 22:07, 7th Aug 2008
...What's next? Accepting "bad" maths? Accepting "bad" behaviour? Can you imagine the consequences of that?

It's hardly equivalent considering spelling affects nothing other than how well the other person can understand you. I don't think anyone would be confused if I used the word 'arguement' instead of 'argument'. I think the consequences might be that some idiot like yourself would take time out his day to correct me. Bad maths on the other hand would make trains crash and buildings fall down, so I think it is clear which one is more important to society. (That is spelling and not the English language before someone has a rant.)

I can understand that there is also a social aspect behind it such that if you and write well it is clear you have been educated well and you will have more authority. From that point of view it makes sense that people want to spell correctly and so I don't think the variations will be widely used.

[hr]

So someone asked me "What is it you do?". I thought about it for a minute. Then I thought about it a little more. All the while I probably looked like I was staring in to space, struggling for an answer. And I was. There was only one response I could really give.

"I make sure the shit stays off the fan."

[Cain]

I don't believe in lowering standards just to make life easier on people who have problems in meeting the required... standard (It's late, and I'm out of synonsyms)

[hr]

I hold an element of surprise

[creepy old man]

I don't think I've ever seen anyone spell twelfth "twelth." That is just plain wrong!

Anyways, I think that is a bad idea because if schools start ignoring or accepting spelling mistakes, that doesn't mean employers and society in general will accept the change as well. Spelling words incorrectly makes a person seem less intelligent, and makes their writing seem less convincing. Imagine if you went through the school system being told it was okay to scribble things like "thru" and "foriegn," only to learn later on that people of older generations consider those spellings stupid and wrong. You would have to relearn how to spell everything so as not to look like an idiot in front of your boss or whatever.

I hope I haven't made any spelling errors in this.

[Gealle]

Older generations? Same generation too, surely!?

We've lost rigour from our educational system. Real question is: how do you restore it?

Quoting creepy old man from 06:02, 8th Aug 2008
I don't think I've ever seen anyone spell twelfth "twelth." That is just plain wrong!

Anyways, I think that is a bad idea because if schools start ignoring or accepting spelling mistakes, that doesn't mean employers and society in general will accept the change as well. Spelling words incorrectly makes a person seem less intelligent, and makes their writing seem less convincing. Imagine if you went through the school system being told it was okay to scribble things like "thru" and "foriegn," only to learn later on that people of older generations consider those spellings stupid and wrong. You would have to relearn how to spell everything so as not to look like an idiot in front of your boss or whatever.

I hope I haven't made any spelling errors in this.

[hr]

So someone asked me "What is it you do?". I thought about it for a minute. Then I thought about it a little more. All the while I probably looked like I was staring in to space, struggling for an answer. And I was. There was only one response I could really give.

"I make sure the shit stays off the fan."

[Gealle]

Having reviewed Bucks New University's website, I think this must be an elaborate hoax.

What sort of institution would offer a BSc in Motorsport?

Quoting gealle from 06:47, 8th Aug 2008
Older generations? Same generation too, surely!?

We've lost rigour from our educational system. Real question is: how do you restore it?

Quoting creepy old man from 06:02, 8th Aug 2008
I don't think I've ever seen anyone spell twelfth "twelth." That is just plain wrong!

Anyways, I think that is a bad idea because if schools start ignoring or accepting spelling mistakes, that doesn't mean employers and society in general will accept the change as well. Spelling words incorrectly makes a person seem less intelligent, and makes their writing seem less convincing. Imagine if you went through the school system being told it was okay to scribble things like "thru" and "foriegn," only to learn later on that people of older generations consider those spellings stupid and wrong. You would have to relearn how to spell everything so as not to look like an idiot in front of your boss or whatever.

I hope I haven't made any spelling errors in this.

[hr]

So someone asked me "What is it you do?". I thought about it for a minute. Then I thought about it a little more. All the while I probably looked like I was staring in to space, struggling for an answer. And I was. There was only one response I could really give.

"I make sure the shit stays off the fan."

[hr]

So someone asked me "What is it you do?". I thought about it for a minute. Then I thought about it a little more. All the while I probably looked like I was staring in to space, struggling for an answer. And I was. There was only one response I could really give.

"I make sure the shit stays off the fan."

[LonelyPilgrim]

Quoting gealle from 06:47, 8th Aug 2008
We've lost rigour from our educational system. Real question is: how do you restore it?

Simple! We re-institute the oral graduation exam for Saline County Kansas Public High Schools from 1895! I have the entire exam in front of me, but I'll only quote a few representative questions. Bear in mind, this is an oral examination:

Grammar:

1. Give nine rules for the use of Capital Letters. (Now, learned man that I am, I can't figure out a whole nine... anyone?)

4. What are the Principle Parts of a verb? Give Principal Parts of do, lie, lay and run. (Honors English student in high school, all four years... but I only learned what principal parts are the other day... from my Latin textbook.)

Arithmetic:

2. A wagon box is 2 ft. deep, 10 feet long, and 3 ft. wide. How many bushels of wheat will it hold? (I have absolutely no idea what the cubic footage of a bushel is. We never dealt with bushels in pre-calculus. I feel like an idiot. But we aren't done with bushels yet...)

3. If a load of wheat weighs 3942 lbs., what is it worth at 50 cts(cents). Per bu. (bushel), deducting 1050 lbs for tare(? -I have no idea what 'tare' is)? (Nor, for that matter, do I have any idea what a bushel of wheat weighs. Clearly, my school wasn't preparing us adequately for life on the farm.)

6. Find the interest of $512.60 for 8 months and 18 days at 7 per cent. (Remember, oral exam. I'm not sure if they were allowed scratch paper or not, but I sort of doubt it. Gealle, can you figure compound interest in your head? I know I can't...)

(I'll skip the US History questions, but let me say, as interested in history as I am - it is how I make my living, after all - I would fail.)

Orthography:

2. What are elementary sounds? How classified? (Riiiiiiight.... )

3. What are the following, and give examples of each: Trigraph, subvocals, diphthong, cognate letters, linguals? (Did I mention the four years of Honors English? I know one of those terms, and I learned in French class, not English.)

4. Give four substitutes for caret ãuä. (No, your screen is displaying right, that is a u bracketed by two 'funny' a's. I have no idea what it means, though I assume it's a phonetic spelling of a sound. Don't ask me what the sound is, I don't know. Clearly, I have no idea about the substitutes. I am an idiot.)

10. Write 10 words frequently mispronounced and indicate pronunciation by use of diacritical marks and by syllabication. (Clearly they get to write in this section, but as for the question... I have no idea what 'diacritical marks' are.)

Geography

1. What is climate? Upon what does climate depend? (Simple question, I suppose, but how, exactly, does one answer it?)

3. Of what use are rivers? Of what use is the ocean? (Again, simple, but odd wording, no? It's like it's asking, "Hey, why are we keeping these oceans around anyway?)

4. Describe the mountains of North America. (Right, look... we have a sh*tload of mountains. They're all over the place, and it's a fairly large continent. I can't do it, and I made semi-finals at my state geography bee in 8th grade. And it doesn't say 'name them' it says 'describe them'. Oh boy...)

8. Why is the Atlantic Coast colder than the Pacific in the same latitude? (I had no idea that it was. I must admit, I'm intrigued now, but I have no idea as to the answer.)

10. Describe the movements of the earth. Give inclination of the earth. (I think it's inclined to spin around and go in circles, but I have a suspicion this isn't what they were looking for.)

Health

1. Where are the saliva, gastric juice, and bile secreted? What is the use of each in digestion? (Good question... )

3. What is the function of the liver? Of the kidneys? (You know, in my high school health class we didn't learn stuff like this. We learned that if you had pre-marital sex, you'd get AIDS and she'd get pregnant and the baby'd have AIDS and you'd all die and go to Hell, only you and the mommy would die first so the AIDS baby would be all alone, dying, of AIDS - and maybe herpes, too. Oh, and masturbation is a sign of mental illness and makes you go blind - and get AIDS - and possibly turn gay.)

-------

I've left a ton of questions out. Suffice to say, I don't think the vast majority of high school seniors could pass this exam today. I don't think most university graduates could pass this exam. It may be that we learn more useful things today - after all, do you really need to know what you liver does, so long as it's working? - but it's evident that 100 years ago a high school education really meant knowing a fair bit about a lot of stuff. Only specialists study orthography now, or bile for that matter. And are we less because of that?

[hr]

Man is free; yet we must not suppose that he is at liberty to do everything he pleases, for he becomes a slave the moment he allows his actions to be ruled by passion. --Giacomo Casanova

[Bizarre Atheist]

Quoting LonelyPilgrim from 08:44, 8th Aug 2008
(Epic post)

I'd like to nominate this for post of the year. Laughing so much I'm getting evils at work, as if I'm not actually working or something!

[hr]

[Thackary]

http://www.google.com/search?q=bushel

[Thackary]

Those questions have made me really curious. I want to know a lot more about language that I never learned at school (and I think we should have learned a lot of the above at school!)

[munchingfoo]

Quoting LonelyPilgrim from 08:44, 8th Aug 2008
Simple! We re-institute the oral graduation exam for Saline County Kansas Public High Schools from 1895! I have the entire exam in front of me, but I'll only quote a few representative questions. Bear in mind, this is an oral examination:

Grammar:

1. Give nine rules for the use of Capital Letters. (Now, learned man that I am, I can't figure out a whole nine... anyone?)

wtf WTF (there's one)

6. Find the interest of $512.60 for 8 months and 18 days at 7 per cent. (Remember, oral exam. I'm not sure if they were allowed scratch paper or not, but I sort of doubt it. Gealle, can you figure compound interest in your head? I know I can't...)

I doubt its compound, because that'd just be silly, you get millions of dps. The question is ambiguous though. Which months should we consider? Theres a different answer depending on which month you start with.

1. What is climate? Upon what does climate depend? (Simple question, I suppose, but how, exactly, does one answer it?)

I would talk about areas of similar weather, micro and macro. As for cause? Warm/Cold fronts and streams. Mountains. Oceans.

4. Describe the mountains of North America. (Right, look... we have a sh*tload of mountains. They're all over the place, and it's a fairly large continent. I can't do it, and I made semi-finals at my state geography bee in 8th grade. And it doesn't say 'name them' it says 'describe them'. Oh boy...)

lol - erm - grey, some have brown bits.

8. Why is the Atlantic Coast colder than the Pacific in the same latitude? (I had no idea that it was. I must admit, I'm intrigued now, but I have no idea as to the answer.)

I'd have thought this is to do with warm/cold streams in the ocean? Atlantic conveyor?


[hr]

"The entirety of these definitions lie outside the gamut of the sRGB color space — such a pure color cannot be represented using RGB primaries. The color swatch to the right is a desaturated approximation, created by taking the centroid of the standard definition and moving it towards the D65 white point, until it meets the sRGB gamut triangle."

[exnihilo]

My English teacher at secondary school was suitably ancient, and so we had a period each week devoted to grammar, rhetoric and formal English. Notebooks full of details about syllepsis, epiphonema, metathesis and the like. Thankfully I had taken Latin and Greek for some years before he taught us, so it wasn't entirely alien.

Obviously, I'm not advocating a complete return to that or to the style of exam posted there, but I can see no harm in actually teaching people their own language in a similar way to how we teach foreign ones - that is with a regard to its rules and structures. If previous generations could read and write with proficiency, why can't this one? This 'solution' is an absurdity. We're not teaching children to spell at school, how can we fix that? Not by teaching them better, no, by telling them that what was wrong now is right.

Sigh.

[bdw]

Quoting Bizarre Atheist from 09:19, 8th Aug 2008

Quoting LonelyPilgrim from 08:44, 8th Aug 2008
(Epic post)

I'd like to nominate this for post of the year. Laughing so much I'm getting evils at work, as if I'm not actually working or something!

[hr]

Agreed, a brilliant find. Loving the "describe the mountains of North America" question. Erm... big, greyish, there be Injuns?
LP, I do think that you have grossly underestimated the intellectual capabilities of the modern examinee, though...
http://www.masalatime.com/?p=419

[Anon.]

Quoting LonelyPilgrim from 08:44, 8th Aug 2008

10. Write 10 words frequently mispronounced and indicate pronunciation by use of diacritical marks and by syllabication. (Clearly they get to write in this section, but as for the question... I have no idea what 'diacritical marks' are.)

They're marks placed over (and under) letters to indicate pronunciation. E.g. acute accents, circumflexes, umlauts, tildes, macrons &c

[Anon.]

Quoting oli from 18:18, 7th Aug 2008
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7546975.stm

"Mr Smith also suggested adding the word 'misspelt' to the list and all those that break the 'i before e' rule - weird, seize, neighbour and foreign."

I was taught that the full rule was

I before E
Except after C
When the sound is "i"

("i" being a close-front unrounded vowel as in "cheese")

...which cuts out quite a lot of words which would otherwise be exceptions, including "neighbour" and "foreign".