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60+ students occupy uni building in protest

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Re: 60+ students occupy uni building in protest

Postby Lid on Sat Feb 28, 2009 1:12 pm

Daniel wrote:We wanted: The University to review its research links with BAE Systems[...] We got: That review
This is the vague promise Al has been talking about.

We wanted: The University to link to the DEC appeal on its website. We got: The SA to link to the DEC appeal on its website and to arrange a screening.
So you got someone else to do something you were asking of the university. Full marks there.


I am very pleased to learn about the courageous and honorable actions of the students at St. Andrews. These are particularly significant because of the crucial British contribution to the savage onslaught on Gaza, and on the occupied territories generally, second only to the decisive role of the United States -- a disgrace for all of us. I hope you have the greatest success in arousing public opinion and bringing these crimes to an end.

Noam Chomsky

And you've certainly made a lasting impact on British foreign policy. Well, he was right on one thing, you certainly aroused public opinion - against your cause.

As someone who visited Gaza in November and saw first hand the suffering of the people there I urge all at this rally today to stand in solidarity with the Gazan people and the people of Palestine .
People throughout Scotland and the World have been shocked by the brutality of the Israeli forces in their attacks on Gaza and rallies and actions such as this today do so much to highlight the injustice and humanitarian crisis in Gaza .
I urge the University authorities to listen to the pleas for justice from students as others have in Glasgow , Strathclyde and beyond and give support to the people of Gaza .
My faith in humanity has been lifted by you all and I thank you on behalf of the many people I met in Gaza .
Sandra White MSP

So she actually doesn't give any support to your occupatorisation, just the rally, which could have been held without occupatorising LCH for a week.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This email has been sent from a Scottish Parliamentary handheld device.
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Blackberry maybe? Good solid investor in Israeli technology.

In all, I estimate we received about 2-300 messages of support last week.
Your margins of error are getting better. Still, if you're to criticise the Sinnerites for only 31 people posting messages against your cause being implicit support, 300 messages of support is only 1/4*10^8 of the world population, so it looks like the world is against you on this one.
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Re: 60+ students occupy uni building in protest

Postby Jono on Sat Feb 28, 2009 5:58 pm

Lid wrote:
Jono wrote:...if an Officer or Sab has consumed alcohol, then they cannot act in any official capacity.


I get to use the phrase 'back in my day' with a perfectly straight face. Back in my day, if that were true, nothing would have ever been done. By anyone.


That should probably have an 'in theory' in there. The rules do, i believe, state that staff and volunteers of the Association cannot undergo duties after having consumed alcohol. That open the question of disciplinary action against... well, basically everyone!

That aside, I still maintain that you can't expect someone to act officiously while out on the town.
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Re: 60+ students occupy uni building in protest

Postby Lid on Sat Feb 28, 2009 9:30 pm

Jono wrote:I still maintain that you can't expect someone to act officiously while out on the town.


But there's a difference between 'on the town' and 'in your place of work'. Though Andrew wasn't the troublemaker here, so the point of contention isn't with him.

When I was on the Executive, and on or off duty, and someone was being obviously disruptive, or someone complained about another member's conduct, depending on how the circumstances deemed appropriate, I would often ask them to calm it a bit (it's somewhere to have fun afterall), or ask the security staff to keep an eye on them if I thought it'd escalate. And it happens because hacks are seen as a point of contact between the union and ordinary human beings. Jenny and I would often field half a dozen questions a night when we went to the bop after doing Socs stuff on a Friday night. It does disrupt your night a wee bit.
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Re: 60+ students occupy uni building in protest

Postby mhuzzell on Sun Mar 01, 2009 2:56 pm

Al wrote:
As has been pointed out many times before, all you've "achieved" is that you have managed to get a vague promise that the university authorities will look into things.


Actually, Chris Smith (and, I am told other university negotiators) were very careful never to make vague promises, and never to promise anything they could not fulfill to the letter. They made that much very clear many times, and it was one of their main points in refusing certain specifics of the occupiers' demands.

For instance, they refused to commit to cancel the Eden Springs contract because they are legally unable to. However, the ethical procurement review process which they are putting in place should, given its stated aim of exploring the ethical issues 'within the context of our Fair Trade status', almost certainly find the Eden Springs corporation to be unethical. However, the university refused to 'bias' either of the review processes it set up by committing to end any contracts before the reviews have been carried out.

On the first point, though, I would've hoped it would be clear to everyone that there is a difference between sustainable procurement -- e.g. replacing all bottled water with tap water, for which Roddy Yarr and others had already been pushing -- and ethical procurement, which was the reasoning behind the occupation's demand and the remit of the committee that the university eventually agreed to set up.

Al wrote:And you could probably have "achieved" as much without the grandstanding. Did you try approaching the university and Students' Association before your slumber party in the Quad? Or were you more interested in theatrics?


As noted by both the SA President and the Rector -- the proper channels themselves! -- the university has never been so quick to act on any issue as it did in response to the occupation. Andrew Keenan mentioned a few times that the occupiers had managed to schedule more meetings in a week than the SA usually manages in months (though, curiously, he seemed to be using this as a point against continuing the occupation).

Having participated in (or attempted to participate in) the "proper channels" many, many times over the last 4 years, I have to tell you that they seldom, if ever, lead to even the negotiations towards a solution, and in fact often seem set up to maintain the status quo by putting those wishing to change anything through so many bureaucratic hoops that they'll probably have graduated or given up by the time their demands are even considered. (Though I'll grant you one noteworthy exception: Library Redevelopment, which since Jon Purcell took over has had frequent and relatively open student input, and moreover seems to have a genuine interest in student input. However in this case it was the university stepping forward to ask the opinions of its students, and not the students themselves trying to talk to the uni through 'proper channels'.)
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Re: 60+ students occupy uni building in protest

Postby Jono on Sun Mar 01, 2009 4:07 pm

mhuzzell wrote:
Having participated in (or attempted to participate in) the "proper channels" many, many times over the last 4 years, I have to tell you that they seldom, if ever, lead to even the negotiations towards a solution, and in fact often seem set up to maintain the status quo by putting those wishing to change anything through so many bureaucratic hoops that they'll probably have graduated or given up by the time their demands are even considered. (Though I'll grant you one noteworthy exception: Library Redevelopment, which since Jon Purcell took over has had frequent and relatively open student input, and moreover seems to have a genuine interest in student input. However in this case it was the university stepping forward to ask the opinions of its students, and not the students themselves trying to talk to the uni through 'proper channels'.)


Oh dear!

Is this what the protest was all about then? The SA is a bit bureaucratic, so lets go protest instead? Not quite the same logic you applied when you ran for Association Chair last year. Personally, I prefer the logic you applied back then, because at least you were trying to make a difference to the organisation.

The old guard might think that the Association is made of “bureaucracy and fail!” (As somebody put it to me the other day). Sure. I know better than most that the wheels turn very slowly, and that the hoops are more plentiful than we’d like. Yet plenty of us have navigated them successfully this year! We’ve even managed to eliminate some of them.

The organisation had its strengths; the greatest of which is constant renewal. We get a new influx of people and ideas every year. Some cynics might say “fresh meat for the grinder”. I prefer an infusion of fresh blood; renewing the tired-eyed old volunteers of yesterday (and believe me, after a year at the helm of the Societies Committee, I’m shattered)! That said, next year’s Association is only going to be as strong as the sum of its parts. Daniel mentioned a whole new generation of activists from first and second year. I sincerely hope that you didn’t put them off because of your beef with Steve Savage last year. That Exec has gone. Please don’t attribute one on top of another.


With that in mind, I’m throwing down the gauntlet. I want to see each and every one of you involved with the occupation who isn’t graduating this year, standing for the Association elections. Nominations open the week after next, so you have ample time to research the roles available and formulate some kind of campaign team. Moreover, win or lose, I expect to hear of an active involvement with the Association next year (whether through the SRC, societies, subcommittees, or whatever else).

No, it isn’t consensus-based participatory democracy. No, it’s probably not as glamorous as occupying a building. No, Chompsky probably won't endorse your campaign. Nevertheless, The Association happens to be the best (read: the only) way for the student body to affect any kind of influence on the University. If any of you want to affect a real change, you’ll take up my gauge, put your money where your mouth is, and some other rhetorical flourishes too!

Best of luck,
Jonathan.
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Re: 60+ students occupy uni building in protest

Postby David Bean on Sun Mar 01, 2009 8:00 pm

Wait a minute. Are you guys seriously saying that the University has agreed to let a member of the self-selecting Palestinian Solidarity Campaign sit on an important university committee dealing with the ethics of research links? If so, that's a total bloody scandal! Were I still a student I'd be damned if I wanted some jumped up lefty agitator claiming to represent my views to the university, particularly one who hadn't even taken the trouble to stand in a democratic election for the privilege. That's utterly disgraceful!

By the way, have you guys figured out yet what Eden Springs has to do with Palestine? A quick Google search reveals that this has been a bee in the Scottish Palestinian Nutjob Campaign's collective bonnet for a while now, and has thus far had the effect of forcing the closure of its East of Scotland depot, forcing it to shed British jobs smack bang in the middle of a recession, on the tenuous premise that it gets some of its water from territory captured by the Israelis during one of its Arab neighbours' several attempts to drive them into the sea. Congratulations!

Lastly, what's the bloody point of having the Students' Association arrange a screening of the DEC Appeal for Gaza? The point of putting it on the television was so that you could screen it in prime time and hopefully bring it to the attention of as many people as possible who weren't previously aware of the situation and might, having become aware, be prepared to donate. Arranging a screening at a discrete place and time achieves none of this and smacks completely of tokenism, because such a screening is highly unlikely to attract anyone who wasn't already fairly au fait with the situation. Come to think of it, why would anyone bother to go along at all? If the appeal is available on the internet, why would someone who found out about it arrange to go to a screening at a particular place and time, when they could just fire it up at their convenience on Youtube? My crystal ball shows me a picture of this screening as another pointless gathering of the same pointless people who staged that pointless occupation in the first place.
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Re: 60+ students occupy uni building in protest

Postby munchingfoo on Sun Mar 01, 2009 9:18 pm

David Bean wrote:My crystal ball shows me a picture of this screening as another pointless gathering of the same pointless people who staged that pointless occupation in the first place.


Amen.
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Re: 60+ students occupy uni building in protest

Postby Cain on Sun Mar 01, 2009 11:08 pm

David Bean wrote:My crystal ball shows me a picture of this screening as another pointless gathering of the same pointless people who staged that pointless occupation in the first place.



But David, it's important to do something, even when that something is redundant and pointless, just to say that you did it.
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Re: 60+ students occupy uni building in protest

Postby Al on Sun Mar 01, 2009 11:37 pm

It's a touching faith that many of the occupators have in the Rector. Touching, and new-found. After all, it's not that many months since they were firmly of the opinion that he wouldn't be a good Rector. Perhaps one shouldn't be surprised by an outpouring of hypocrisy from some of the occupators. The fact remains that the Rector has only been in post for a little while and I don't think anyone could honestly say that he is an expert on the workings of the university. Or on the history of recent student life. There have been people posting on this thread who have far more experience of the highest levels of the university, and yet their views are disregarded. I wonder why.
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Re: 60+ students occupy uni building in protest

Postby Daniel on Mon Mar 02, 2009 12:11 pm

David Bean wrote:...

I'm imagining an irate Bean right now.
Image

The PSC is not 'self-selecting', it uses the same principles of consensus-based democratic participation that OneWorld uses. As such, its no different to the EI steering group but I dont see you getting all irate about them.

As for Eden Springs, is google not being your friend? No one ever claimed Eden Springs was directly related to Palestine -- its relevance is Israeli expansionism.

In 1981, Israel formally applied its "laws, jurisdiction and administration" to the Golan Heights with the passage of the Golan Heights Law. Since then it has been governed as part of Israel’s North District. This annexation is not internationally recognized and UN Resolution 242 considers the area part of the Israeli-occupied territories. Syria has never stopped demanding that the land be returned, and in 2006, the United Nations General Assembly adopted a resolution calling on Israel to end its occupation of the Golan, while declaring all the legislative and administrative measures taken by Israel in the Golan null and void.


The brand and company were created in 1980 after the Slokia wellspring on the Golan Heights was discovered. After additional tests with the wellspring water, Eden Springs received permission to market its water in 1983. In 1998, Mey Eden expanded its services in Europe and created the brand name "Eden Springs".


From the wiki.

Al wrote:...

Funny that some of us might have some experience campaigning within the University yet our experience is being discounted by you. The renewable energy campaign (cited on this very thread as a prime example of 'proper-channel campaigning') was a dismal failure and as one of the main instigators of the campaign, I should know. EI held some fairly large protests which were dismissed by people at the time as not being 'proper channels' but was, after several years and generations of students, successful. The occupation continued EIs successes and methods by getting the uni to apply the same criteria to procurement and research funding that they do to investment.

As for Jono, well I applaud your manifesto. Unfortunately some of us have lives outside the union and in politics outside of St A. The union elections are at a particularly bad time of year as they occur simultaneously with the elections of a certain NGO I'm personally involved with. But I'll see what I can do.

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Re: 60+ students occupy uni building in protest

Postby Power Metal Dom on Mon Mar 02, 2009 3:09 pm

Daniel wrote:From the wiki.


I'll jump on this grenade!

Image
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Re: 60+ students occupy uni building in protest

Postby David Bean on Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:13 pm

Daniel wrote:I'm imagining an irate Bean right now.


Sorry to rain on your parade, but if I were a Jakks Pacific figure, I'd totally be The Undertaker.

The PSC is not 'self-selecting', it uses the same principles of consensus-based democratic participation that OneWorld uses. As such, its no different to the EI steering group but I dont see you getting all irate about them.


Forgive my ignorance, but what the hell's that supposed to mean? Of course the PSC is self-selecting, because as one can fairly safely assume from its name, it is composed more or less 100% of people who have a particular view of the situation in the Middle East vis a vis Israel/Palestine, who take the side of the Palestinians - in many cases failing to distinguish between Palestinians, so that a Hamas leader is accorded much the same reverence as a Mahmoud Abbas - and believe that there is some virtue in the idea of being 'in solidarity' (whatever that means) with them. As inconvenient as it may be, the fact is that these are not universally held opinions. Why should someone who thinks that Israel has the right not only to exist, but to defend itself robustly against existential threats, have any less right to have their views represented when the university considers research partnerships than someone who believes that the Palestinians are mere victims of Israeli tyranny? My view is that they self-evidently don't, and so it is thoroughly inappropriate for university procedures and committees to be coloured by views on either side of that one specific issue, or anywhere in between. This is especially true when those people represent nobody but themselves, but not exclusively so - as far as I'm concerned I don't care if every student in the whole damn place were a fully paid-up member of the PSC or, for that matter, Mossad - it's simply not the appropriate venue for such views to be brought to the table.

As for Eden Springs, is google not being your friend? No one ever claimed Eden Springs was directly related to Palestine -- its relevance is Israeli expansionism.


Okay, great, although you might've bothered to show Harry a map at some point whilst you were holed up in there, since he seemed to think drinking Eden Springs hurt the Palestinians somehow or other. Come to think of it you might've also chosen a less misleading title for your group - 'Anti-Israel Solidarity Campaign', or somesuch.

That said, my previous point still stands. The Golan Heights is an area of supreme strategic importance in the region, and it's a point from which Syria began its vicious, genocidal assault on the Israelis back in 1967. After Israel sent them packing what, precisely, would you have had them do, let the Syrians climb merrily back up there to begin planning their next murderous campaign? Just because the UN General Assembly thinks Israel shouldn't keep the Golan Heights, doesn't mean it's correct - to pass a resolution like that all you have to do is to scrape up the votes of God knows what appalling dictatorships, a task rendered significantly easier when your target is the world's premier pariah state.
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Re: 60+ students occupy uni building in protest

Postby Senethro on Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:29 pm

Surely its only genocidal if it succeeds! :V

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Re: 60+ students occupy uni building in protest

Postby Duggeh on Tue Mar 03, 2009 2:10 am

David Bean wrote:Wait a minute. Are you guys seriously saying that the University has agreed to let a member of the self-selecting Palestinian Solidarity Campaign sit on an important university committee dealing with the ethics of research links? If so, that's a total bloody scandal! Were I still a student I'd be damned if I wanted some jumped up lefty agitator claiming to represent my views to the university, particularly one who hadn't even taken the trouble to stand in a democratic election for the privilege. That's utterly disgraceful!



I also raised this point when I took apart the last lot of unregistered bullshit and it has yet to be answered.
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Re: 60+ students occupy uni building in protest

Postby Lid on Tue Mar 03, 2009 2:33 am

David Bean wrote:Just because the UN General Assembly thinks Israel shouldn't keep the Golan Heights, doesn't mean it's correct


I'm sorry, David, as much as I disagree with the motives of the incubators, or whatever they've called themselves now, and as much as I agree with everything else you've written, it's your crusade against international law I have to disagree with. This is not a UNSC resolution here, this is from the General Assembly of the United Nations. A country that so defies the United Nations, a place where they quite happily take a seat in, cannot stand in defiance of a resolution of that body, no matter how begrudging it is of it. It's abhorrent.
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Re: 60+ students occupy uni building in protest

Postby LonelyPilgrim on Tue Mar 03, 2009 4:13 am

Lid wrote:
David Bean wrote:Just because the UN General Assembly thinks Israel shouldn't keep the Golan Heights, doesn't mean it's correct


I'm sorry, David, as much as I disagree with the motives of the incubators, or whatever they've called themselves now, and as much as I agree with everything else you've written, it's your crusade against international law I have to disagree with. This is not a UNSC resolution here, this is from the General Assembly of the United Nations. A country that so defies the United Nations, a place where they quite happily take a seat in, cannot stand in defiance of a resolution of that body, no matter how begrudging it is of it. It's abhorrent.


Excuse me, what? Since when did General Assembly resolutions gain the force of international law? It is precisely the UN SECURITY COUNCIL resolutions that actually count. If GA resolutions were law we'd live in a very strange world indeed...
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Re: 60+ students occupy uni building in protest

Postby RedCelt69 on Tue Mar 03, 2009 7:26 am

LonelyPilgrim wrote:Excuse me, what? Since when did General Assembly resolutions gain the force of international law? It is precisely the UN SECURITY COUNCIL resolutions that actually count. If GA resolutions were law we'd live in a very strange world indeed...

We already live in a very strange world indeed.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/UN/usvetoes.html
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Re: 60+ students occupy uni building in protest

Postby exnihilo on Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:52 am

What point are you making?
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Re: 60+ students occupy uni building in protest

Postby Lid on Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:04 pm

LonelyPilgrim wrote:It is precisely the UN SECURITY COUNCIL resolutions that actually count.


Such as Resolution 497?
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Re: 60+ students occupy uni building in protest

Postby exnihilo on Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:35 pm

Sorry to go back up the thread, but in respect of the Rector. As he was not long in office, am I right in thinking that the solidarity people did not go through the Students' Association or him? And is his statement that this direct action was more effective than going through him not, therefore, tantamount to saying that his role is ineffectual? Quite a depressing admission from a man who is only just officially in the job.
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