St. Andrews: Time for a law faculty?

[Geek]

Let me just throw this out there.

Do you think that St. Andrews should open a Faculty/School of Law?

I'll start off the discussion.

Advantages.

1)Not having one limits educational options to all students--- including non-law students.
The lack of a law course at the University means that it doesn't have the ability to provide the same academic offering as other universities. Particularly at a Scottish university- where the modular system is the norm- entry-level law offerings in public and administrative law, contracts, and other law subjects could be taken by some students who are interested in the area, but aren't sure whether they want to commit.

2) Becoming a centre of legal knowledge will have benefits for cross-disciplinary study and research. Plus: you could use it.
Learning law has cross-disciplinary applications in most arts subjects- whether economics, management, philsosophy, I.R., history, art history, sustainable development... it goes on. The keenest students will be able to use a course in contracts or land law very productively in the course of their academic careers.

Plus, knowing the law is hugely empowering. One course in land law and I've managed to stop two landlords from screwing me over. Also, after seeing a great many arguments on contracts, or torts/delict, or constitutional and administrative law, on the internet a lot of you could use to take a course or two... frankly, everyone should at some point.

3) A law conversion course is a seriously nasty piece of work.
Want to become a lawyer? Buckle up, it's a rough ride. In tuition alone, the postgraduate route to qualification can cost £16,000, and takes two further years of schooling after university. For debt-laden graduates, this can limit access to the profession. It would be fair to future students who aren't sure about the subject to allow them to sample first-year courses (which is allowed in the modular system) or to undertake joint degrees in Law (thus allowing them to earn qualifying law degrees) while still being able to make use of the state-funded university system, and low-interest student loans. Plus, living in London or Edinburgh isn't cheap, especially not for students who are already in debt.

4) St. Andrews might be able to do something really cool with this.
It is no secret that St. Andrews is moving up in the world. One idea this OP has bandied around with some mates in London is the possibility of St. Andrews doing a LL.B. in Scots and English law- the first- and second-years focusing on the core subjects in Scots law, and the third and fourth years consisting of the seven "core" English courses plus a dissertation. True, Dundee stole our law school, and they already have a English LL.B. offering-- but why shouldn't we? This could allow St. Andrews students to choose to go to either England or Scotland to undertake the vocational stage of legal training, as they will be armed with the compulsory academic knowledge to practice law on either side of the border. It also might make them more attractive to Edinburgh firms who do cross-border work.

Disadvantages.

1) Setting this up will suck. It will also be expensive.
It will be expensive, will require additional cost and investment, and recruiting academic and support staff. All this costs money and resources which could go to other departments. And there is, of course, no guarantee that the regulatory authorities will let the university get away with it.

2) This will mean there are more lawyers in the world.
Nobody likes that.


So. Sinners: what do you think? Do you support this idea?

[Hennessy]

yep

[David Bean]

I think you're right as to the possible advantages of setting up a Faculty of Law - St Andrews would be an excellent place to study the subject, for all the reasons why it's a great place to come to anywhere else. But I do think the cost issue would be an overriding objection. The University's funds are squeezed enough as it is, particularly in light of its recent settlement from the Scottish Executive and the inability to charge top-up fees, and its strategic priorities at the moment seem from what I've seen to be about expanding the Faculty of Medicine and investing in science facilities in general.

I do think you have something in that LL.B. Scots and English law idea, though - it's one that any existing Scottish law faculty could pursue, and make into a real draw. And if four years is impractical, why not make it a five-year course? A great many scientists spend five years getting an MSc in order to help them become as qualified as they can for their professions, so why shouldn't a law student like to take an extra year to give themselves an advantage in theirs?

[exnihilo]

Just what the country needs. More law graduates.

[donpablo]

No chance! I quite like our lawless society. Works rather well plus I fear change!

[Jormungand]

There are already too many law graduates looking for too few jobs, so I'd have to say no.

[bdw]

I'm not sure the West Port is big enough...

[Fawksie]

I'm not sure the West Port is big enough...

Ba-dum, tssh!

[missmaryland]

I'm not sure the West Port is big enough...

Seconded. The university is elitist enough as it is and a law faculty wouldn't do anything to balance out the financial background of the student body.

[OP]

Seconded. The university is elitist enough as it is and a law faculty wouldn't do anything to balance out the financial background of the student body.

Wait a minute. Because the addition of a law faculty might mean that the university admits more students with A-grade passes at A-Level... many of whom, admittedly, come from independent schools... you'd be willing to deny access to the REST of the university to law-related modules for the sake of having a "balanced financial background?"

What's wrong with you? Do people from a different financial background make you uncomfortable?

Additionally, more law places in Scotland would surely mean that more intelligent young Scots from less privileged backgrounds get a shot at qualifying as lawyers. Social mobility etc.

You are, in my opinion, being very petty if this is the only reason you can come up with for opposing the creation of a law faculty.

[Haunted]

Seconded. The university is elitist enough as it is and a law faculty wouldn't do anything to balance out the financial background of the student body.

This could be subtle satire but just in case....you are aware just how elitist this sounds don't you? Denying access to university for some people because they are not of the "right type".

[Al]

It's hardly the most sensible idea though, is it? Where would these students live? Where would they be taught? Who would teach them?

[OP]

They could easily find room by closing down the school for film studies and cutting down on the art history intake.

Job done.

[schmod]

Want to become a lawyer? Buckle up, it's a rough ride. In tuition alone, the postgraduate route to qualification can cost £16,000

Most Americans would chuckle at this statement. £16,000 won't pay for a single undergraduate year at most universities.

[wild_quinine]

Most Americans would chuckle at this statement. £16,000 won't pay for a single undergraduate year at most universities.

That's just not true, according to http://www.collegeboard.com

* About 56 percent of students enrolled at four-year colleges or universities attend institutions that charge tuition and fees of less than $9,000 per year.
* 38 percent of full-time students enrolled in public four-year colleges and universities attend institutions that charge tuition and fees between $3,000 and $6,000.
* While private four-year institutions have a much wider range of tuition and fee charges, only about 9 percent of all students attend colleges with tuition and fees totaling $33,000 or higher per year.

[jollytiddlywink]

Most Americans would chuckle at this statement. £16,000 won't pay for a single undergraduate year at most universities.

That's just not true, according to http://www.collegeboard.com

* About 56 percent of students enrolled at four-year colleges or universities attend institutions that charge tuition and fees of less than $9,000 per year.
* 38 percent of full-time students enrolled in public four-year colleges and universities attend institutions that charge tuition and fees between $3,000 and $6,000.
* While private four-year institutions have a much wider range of tuition and fee charges, only about 9 percent of all students attend colleges with tuition and fees totaling $33,000 or higher per year.

And after that, we need to take the exchange rate into consideration: currently 16000 quid is roughly 26000 dollars, and in the last year, it could easily have been 32000 dollars, or even a little more. In other words, 16,000 quid is pushing the very top end of what US universities would charge.

[theshadowhost]

Want to become a lawyer? Buckle up, it's a rough ride. In tuition alone, the postgraduate route to qualification can cost £16,000

Most Americans would chuckle at this statement. £16,000 won't pay for a single undergraduate year at most universities.

so what? This isn't america and just cause it costs a lot there doesnt mean it should here. Since people dont pay very much for university in the UK £16,000 seems like a lot to pay. <-- it's all relative.