Home

TheSinner.net

Beware Union RBS cashpoint!

This message board is for discussing anything in any way remotely connected with St Andrews, the University or just anything you want. Welcome!

Beware Union RBS cashpoint!

Postby ELysistrata on Sun Jun 13, 2010 2:26 pm

Hi all, a friend had her card cloned on Friday via the RBS cashpoint at the Union - RBS are saying that they will not refund the £400 she's lost (in cash) because of this, and they might even charge her an over-limit fee (bastards). Wouldn't want this to happen to anyone else, so thought I'd post it here. I guess she will let the Union know tomorrow as well, when she speaks to the bank some more...
ELysistrata
 
Posts: 41
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2004 7:56 pm

Re: Beware Union RBS cashpoint!

Postby Haunted on Sun Jun 13, 2010 4:18 pm

Have you contacted/informed the police?
How can you be sure it was that particular machine?
Genesis 19:4-8
Haunted
User avatar
 
Posts: 3171
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 2:05 am

Re: Beware Union RBS cashpoint!

Postby DACrowe on Mon Jun 14, 2010 12:41 am

People imagine that Chip and Pin cards are more secure, but some bright spark decided they should have a magnetic stripe as well as the pin so they could function if the chip stopped working or people didn't have a reader (there's a Ross Anderson discussion about that decision somewhere online) which means they are at least as insecure as normal magnetic stripe cards; all you'd need is the magnetic stripe and the pin. The former can be obtained by installing a magnetic reader on a hole-in-the-wall. The latter either by a camera attached to the reader or else just standing behind someone and looking at them typing their number in. Unfortunately banks for quite a while insisted that Chip and Pin systems were so damn perfect that any loss must be due to the customer giving their pin away and refused to make good losses made. As far as I know there's been enough decisions made against them to stop this deplorable practice. You should always (a) be on the look out for anything which looks out of place on the hole-in-the-wall fascias (anything which looks stuck on, for example) and (b) cover the keypad from as many angles as possible when typing in your pin. Unfortunately banks made (a) needlessly difficult by designing hole-in-walls with features which look as if they might be stuck on. Bank machines in Turkey actually have different coloured plastic shielding around the card slot; you'd better believe I gave that a few good tugs (and checked out other machines) before I used it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7pjUIxKoEc - An older news item discussing some of the above.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1QAnb-wnTs - A newer item. Apparently Ross Anderson has discovered how to completely by-pass the pin entirely. The man's amazing.

You might want to get your friend to contact these people - http://www.cardwatch.org.uk/secure/contact.asp - to ask who she should contact that isn't RBS (there will be a Financial Services Ombudsman) though they seem as if they might be a bit useless given they contain pro-Chip and Pin propaganda on the front page and what is effectively an ad for verisign in their FAQ. Don't accept RBS's answer; ask how to contact the ombudsman (they're under an obligation to tell you). It used to be APCAS but now it looks like it's Financial Fraud Action UK whose website hasn't been created yet.
DACrowe
 
Posts: 216
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 7:49 pm

Re: Beware Union RBS cashpoint!

Postby ELysistrata on Mon Jun 14, 2010 5:28 am

Haunted wrote:Have you contacted/informed the police?
How can you be sure it was that particular machine?


1. I don't know - it wasn't me. I am sure she will do all this.
2. The card was cloned for use in a cash machine, has only been used to withdraw cash illegally, that cash machine was the most recently used and only one for some time.
3. How about a "thank you" for the head's up or contributing useful information? Using another cashpoint for a few days isn't going to do anyone some harm and there are some cases where the Sinner's amazing skills of scepticism aren't absolutely necessary. ;)
Last edited by ELysistrata on Mon Jun 14, 2010 5:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
ELysistrata
 
Posts: 41
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2004 7:56 pm

Re: Beware Union RBS cashpoint!

Postby ELysistrata on Mon Jun 14, 2010 5:30 am

DACrowe wrote:You might want to get your friend to contact these people - http://www.cardwatch.org.uk/secure/contact.asp - to ask who she should contact that isn't RBS (there will be a Financial Services Ombudsman) though they seem as if they might be a bit useless given they contain pro-Chip and Pin propaganda on the front page and what is effectively an ad for verisign in their FAQ. Don't accept RBS's answer; ask how to contact the ombudsman (they're under an obligation to tell you). It used to be APCAS but now it looks like it's Financial Fraud Action UK whose website hasn't been created yet.


Thanks so much for that! I just wanted to give warning, but this information is going to be really helpful, especially as she's not British and doesn't feel totally sure of what's her right in this situation. You're a star :)
ELysistrata
 
Posts: 41
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2004 7:56 pm

Re: Beware Union RBS cashpoint!

Postby Hennessy on Mon Jun 14, 2010 7:28 am

Wait, how does someone withdraw £400 anyway? I have an RBS account and my maximum daily withdrawal is £250. Unless the thief came back and withdrew £250 then a further £150 the next day!
The Sinner.
"Apologies in advance for pedantry."
Hennessy
User avatar
 
Posts: 1012
Joined: Fri Feb 29, 2008 12:08 pm

Re: Beware Union RBS cashpoint!

Postby DACrowe on Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:26 am

ELysistrata wrote:
Haunted wrote:Have you contacted/informed the police?
How can you be sure it was that particular machine?


1. I don't know - it wasn't me. I am sure she will do all this.
2. The card was cloned for use in a cash machine, has only been used to withdraw cash illegally, that cash machine was the most recently used and only one for some time.
3. How about a "thank you" for the head's up or contributing useful information? Using another cashpoint for a few days isn't going to do anyone some harm and there are some cases where the Sinner's amazing skills of scepticism aren't absolutely necessary. ;)


2 - I think the point being made was that you can't be sure it was the RBS machine because it could have been cloned from a machine used months ago and only just now been used. I'd hope Haunted was just alerting you to this possibility rather than implying anything else. However you're right; it would have been worth warning about even if you hadn't been sure which of several machined used recently was likely to be the 'culprit'.

3 - Thank you. I was looking at my statement after you posted and am quite glad I took money out from the Tesco machines on Friday rather than the Union.

The Police - While you should make an effort to contact them, most of the stuff I've seen online says the police just tell you to contact the bank involved. If you don't have much luck with the card folk above then worst case scenario you could contact either Ross Anderson (aforementioned compsci at Cambridge) or Ming Campbell's office (your MP); neither would deal with it directly but they might be able to tell you who else is worth contacting.
DACrowe
 
Posts: 216
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 7:49 pm

Re: Beware Union RBS cashpoint!

Postby donpablo on Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:29 am

Sounds more like the card was cloned elsewhere but used to withdraw money at the union. I used the cash machine over friday and the weekend without my bank account being emptied. No cloners in the thing when i used it. Thats the thing you should look out for really. And never let the card out of your sight with someone, that's usually how it happens.
Maybe having the same levels of skepticism as some of us would have prevented it from happening.

It's true about the police telling you to contact the bank. Not much point in them acting as middle men in it all. Plus the bank fraud teams are quite often full of ex-police anyway but with direct access to the relevant systems.
donpablo
 
Posts: 136
Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:16 am

Re: Beware Union RBS cashpoint!

Postby Oli on Mon Jun 14, 2010 12:59 pm

The Students' Association has contacted the Royal Bank of Scotland to make them aware that there may be an issue with the cashpoint hosted at the Students' Association. (This machine is operated by RBS, not the Union).

If you are in doubt about any cashpoint (ATM), DO NOT USE it, and notify either your own bank or the bank which operates the ATM in question, giving as much detail as possible.

Oli Walker
Design & Marketing Officer, Students' Association.
Oli
 
Posts: 1213
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Re: Beware Union RBS cashpoint!

Postby ELysistrata on Mon Jun 14, 2010 1:20 pm

Hennessy wrote:Wait, how does someone withdraw £400 anyway? I have an RBS account and my maximum daily withdrawal is £250. Unless the thief came back and withdrew £250 then a further £150 the next day!


Evidently, £200 was drawn soon after she used that cashpoint, then a further £200 the next morning, at which point RBS Fraud contacted her.
ELysistrata
 
Posts: 41
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2004 7:56 pm

Re: Beware Union RBS cashpoint!

Postby ELysistrata on Mon Jun 14, 2010 1:23 pm

donpablo wrote: Maybe having the same levels of skepticism as some of us would have prevented it from happening.


How helpful, I'm sure that will make her feel better.

Oli, thanks - I wasn't saying it had anything to do with the Union, just noting that as the location of the cashpoint :-) I think RBS probably already knew, as they had gotten in touch with her, but it's good to know that the Union has said something to them as well!
ELysistrata
 
Posts: 41
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2004 7:56 pm

Re: Beware Union RBS cashpoint!

Postby orudge on Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:00 pm

Hennessy wrote:Wait, how does someone withdraw £400 anyway? I have an RBS account and my maximum daily withdrawal is £250. Unless the thief came back and withdrew £250 then a further £150 the next day!


Different accounts can have different withdrawal limits. I think mine is £300. However, I think all RBS cash machines have a £400-per-day maximum limit for withdrawals from any individual card, irrespective of which bank issued it and what limits the issuing bank may impose. At least, this seemed to be the case a few years ago.
orudge
Administrator

User avatar
 
Posts: 1513
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2005 11:43 am
Location: St Andrews, Fife

Re: Beware Union RBS cashpoint!

Postby donpablo on Mon Jun 14, 2010 5:23 pm

If someone clones your card, I find it very unlikely they would use it to withdraw money from the same machine just after you used it and then again the next morning. More likely, it was cloned some time ago from a garage or restaraunt (possibly) from outside st andrews and sheer coincidence the 2 cards were used in the same location.

Maybe your friend can get access to the CCTV from the union? I'm not sure if it covers the cash machine or just the entrance / car park but surely it's worth a shot. Perhaps at the very least then she could be able to identify the person that used the card, even if it turns up no leads about the cloning. Might not make her feel better but hopefully it helps.
donpablo
 
Posts: 136
Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:16 am

Re: Beware Union RBS cashpoint!

Postby fluffy on Sat Jun 26, 2010 3:54 pm

I had my card cloned twice from cash points in St Andrews. But Barclays refunded all my money. It was a bit of an arse, but they certainly were very fair. Now I only use cash points inside banks when possible.
dev ksereis, alla eimai trella erotebmevei mazi sou..
fluffy
 
Posts: 363
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2007 9:04 pm


Return to The Sinner's Main Board

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 26 guests

cron