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Anti-Gay Bishop appointed to School of Divinity

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Re: Anti-Gay Bishop appointed to School of Divinity

Postby Humphrey on Wed Aug 11, 2010 2:06 pm

LonelyPilgrim wrote:I might add, though (as a possible point of interest for you), that I have been told that there are some elements of Torah scholarship who hold that the original prohibition against homosexuality among men, correctly understood, is that it is an abomination to have gay sex in the bed you share with your wife. I have absolutely no idea how orthodox or controversial that view is, I would assume its very controversial, but if it's a correct interpretation it would actually mean there is no absolute prohibition against homosexuality anywhere in the Bible. Admittedly, I was told that by one person and have done no follow up investigation whatsoever, since I consider the Old Testament pretty irrelevant anyway to my interpretation of Christianity.


I find that a bit of a stretch since, Josephus tells us that 'sexual relations of males to males [the law] abhors, and death is the punishment if anyone should attempt it'. Although interesting the only reference he has in his works to homosexuality being a problem (but really pederasty in this case) is when Mark Anthony saw a portrait of the young Prince Aristobulus III and asked for him to be sent to him in Rome for a bit of 'cottaging'.

The ancient Israelites had an extremely strict sexual morality (outside of marriage), for various reasons; among them, a teleological attitude to procreation and the desire to re-establish their culture's identity over foreign cultures. They seem to have had an almost unhinged paranoia about non-procreative activity; we find one Rabbi for instance arguing that unmarried men should not be allowed to tend flocks of sheep. By contrast the Romans sexual hang-ups seem to be been far more over power relationships.
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Re: Anti-Gay Bishop appointed to School of Divinity

Postby jollytiddlywink on Thu Aug 12, 2010 12:30 am

apologies in advance for length...
Well, news of Scruton's appointment has now hit the pink press, which has reminded me how this thread got started.

Scruton has argued, in print, that homosexuality should be illegal, because that might encourage homosexuals to become priests (essay 'sexual morality and the liberal consensus' 1989), and believes that heterosexual attraction is a good thing, while homosexual attraction is perverse (book 'Sexual Desire' 1986).

More recently, he wrote this article in the Telegraph (a clue, methinks!):
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/pers ... ldren.html
I will not copy out the whole article here, but will tackle portions of it.
First, I do realize that a newspaper article is not subject to the same level of academic rigour as an article in a peer-reviewed journal, and there is no obligation to cite sources, but there are several instances where he says things like this:
(The British people) may not be comfortable with its more demonstrative expressions, but they are prepared to tolerate the homosexual way of life, provided it keeps within the bounds of decency, and does no violence to fundamental norms. However, this attitude does not satisfy the activists.

which are not only unsupported by evidence, but contravene the evidence available. A government-backed survey in 2008 found that, while 36% of British adults felt homosexuality to be wrong, 49% felt it was not wrong. More people (38%) disapproved of working mothers than disapproved of homosexuality. And I have no idea how he determined the mindset of the un-named activists.

He liberally peppers his article with terms in "quotation marks", which rather reminds me of macgamer avoiding the word homosexual when he is referring to a homosexual, preferring instead to refer to people with same sex attraction, and indeed felt that to use homosexual as it is defined in the dictionary was to "cater to sensibilities." Such efforts, both in the article and elsewhere, are an effort to discredit perfectly good terminology by implying that it is somehow suspect.

we wake up to the fact that, although homosexuality has been normalised, it is not normal.

Again, he has used the 'we' to monolithically lump the rest of British society in with his own views. Moreover, he is guilty of, at least, a linguistic error. Homosexuality is normal. It may not be the norm, but it is normal. Perhaps he has simply confused the words 'normal' and 'norm' and used the wrong one. But I suspect that is not the case, and he is actually insisting on a factual inaccuracy. I hate to have to provide links here, but I suspect failing to do so will produce an angry reply from someone, so here are links to the Royal College of Psychiatrists (who agree with similar bodies in the US), and to the Australian Psychological Society. Presumably they know what they're talking about, backed by as they are by voluminous scientific and medical evidence. Nowhere do they say that homosexuality is abnormal... rather the opposite, in fact. It is this kind of scientific evidence which Scruton calls "propaganda" in his article.

This truth (ie that heterosexuality is normal and good and homosexuality is abnormal and bad) is recognised by all the great religions, and is endorsed in the Christian view of marriage as a union created by God

He seems to have condemned all of the non-Abrahamic religions to being less than great, and furthermore employed slight-of-hand by thus ignoring their views of sexuality, which are less condemnatory than the religions he selectively chooses to use. I won't comment further on the narrow-world view that suggests, nor on the bias inherent in his selection. Second, he again refers to a "truth" which is, in fact, false. This is not to suggest that he has got the wrong idea about the positions the Abrahamic faiths hold (they do, by and large, oppose equal rights for LGBT people to various degrees), but rather to point out that there is no factual basis for that position.

He concludes the article with some unfounded assertions and some equally unfounded implications.
it is no more an act of discrimination to exclude gay couples (from adoption) than it is to exclude incestuous liaisons or communes of promiscuous "swingers".

He argues this on the basis that
Anything else (other than a mother and father adopting together) would be an injustice to the child and an abuse of his innocence.

Again, this is not only unsupported by evidence, but flies in the face of the evidence, which indicates precisely the opposite.
I would like to cite someone I have already pointed out to macgamer. Professor Michael Lamb, head of the Department of Social and Developmental Psychology at the University of Cambridge, and formerly, for seventeen years, the head of the social and emotional development section of the National Institute of Child Health and Human Development in Washington DC. He has recently presented expert testimony in California, where he testified that
"all available evidence shows that children raised by gay or lesbian parents are just as likely to be well-adjusted as children raised by heterosexual parents and that the gender of a parent is immaterial to whether an adult is a good parent."
He is backed by his veritable mountain of peer-reviewed publication, amounting to some 500 articles. He also edited 40 books on developmental psychology. Unsurprisingly, the court deemed him "amply qualified" to proffer expert testimony.

Now, that critique of the argument, the factual errors, and the linguistic slight-of-hand in the article over, I will sum up by saying that he is entitled to hold whatever views he wants on homosexuality. If he wants to think it wrong, let him. That he thinks it wrong bothers me (slightly) less than his efforts to rationalise his view with pseudo-science and falsehoods, especially since he ought to be able to recognise the difference between true and false. Either he is ignorant enough to be unable to tell evidence and fact from opinion and mere dogmatic insistence, or his argument is knowingly intellectually dishonest. Either way, hiring this man to teach at this university is a very poor service to the students. Especially interesting is the idea that if he has resorted to such poor argument and such flimsy (indeed, false!) evidence to support his view, he was unable to muster anything better to support his view, and that despite this, he was unwilling to jettison his view.
I think it very revealing that an academic, widely published, writing in a national newspaper, and putting forth a view prejudicial to gays and lesbians, resorts to such rubbish to bolster his views. It indicates just how lamentable the basis of such views is.

To make myself perfectly clear, I do not argue that he should be denied a lectureship on the basis of his views. There is an academic, John Charmley (at Cambridge, if memory serves) who has published works arguing that appeasement was a brilliant policy, that Chamberlain did better for Britain than Churchill, and that the Munich agreement was a defeat for Hitler. My thoughts on the matter are almost diametrically opposite, but I do not for a moment suggest that he should not be at one of the best institutions in the world. He should be kept around as long as he cares to continue in academia (and not just to provide some much-needed comedy in a dark subject). While I disagree with him and his views, I have been unable (despite some effort) to find any factual errors in his work, and his argumentation, while I disagree with his conclusions, holds water in terms of its logical progressions from a to b to c, etc.

What I do strongly and unreservedly object to is someone like Scruton who is guilty of at least one of the following:
a. an inability to critically examine evidence or determine whether it is true or false
b. an inability to base his opinions on evidence, and worse, an (possible) ability to hold them in the face of contradictory evidence
c. a possible ability to be knowingly dishonest in presenting an argument backed by assertions he knows to be false

A man with such failings has no business in St Andrews, particularly when, in moral philosophy, he will be spending at least some portion of his teaching time presenting such abysmal views and their abysmal support to his students. True, I would expect his students to see through this and recognise this as the joke that it is, but I do think we have the right to expect that the university would not hire incompetents to teach in the first place.
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Re: Anti-Gay Bishop appointed to School of Divinity

Postby RedCelt69 on Thu Aug 12, 2010 4:12 am

Have you considered (or attempted) leaving a message on his blog?
http://rogerscruton.wordpress.com/
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Re: Anti-Gay Bishop appointed to School of Divinity

Postby macgamer on Thu Aug 12, 2010 3:29 pm

Edited for miss-accreditation
LonelyPilgrim wrote:It's not that it isn't sinful anymore. It's rather that God, or rather Jesus, realised that humans could never successfully avoid sin and therefore a new mechanism for salvation was introduced and the old Law was stripped down to the most important parts: Love God, Love Thyself, Love Thy Neighbour.

A slightly curious conclusion to reach given:

Matthew 5:17-22 wrote:Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them.
For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. "You have heard that it was said to the men of old, `You shall not kill; and whoever kills shall be liable to judgment.' But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, `You fool!' shall be liable to the hell of fire.

Jesus then continues with examples of the other commandments stating their old interpretation and then demanding a greater commitment to the spirit of the law rather than to the letter as with the scribes and pharisees.

jollytiddlywink wrote:Homosexuality is normal. It may not be the norm, but it is normal. [...] Nowhere do they say that homosexuality is abnormal... rather the opposite, in fact.

In the sense that homosexuality is not functionally associated with characterised physically or psychological disorders that impair such a person's ability to participate in society. However to say that it is a normal state given the sexual incompatibility of members of the same gender in terms of anatomy and fertility, is not true. The normal sexual attraction and practice is that which is able to maintain the species and so is selected for, this is reflected by statistics that the majority of the population is heterosexual reflecting a 'statistical norm'. And so heterosexual behaviour becomes understood as normative.
Last edited by macgamer on Thu Aug 12, 2010 11:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Anti-Gay Bishop appointed to School of Divinity

Postby Senethro on Thu Aug 12, 2010 6:33 pm

Nope, you're a bigot who uses faith to justify the demands of faith. Your beliefs are uninteresting, circular and void of integrity.
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Re: Anti-Gay Bishop appointed to School of Divinity

Postby Anon. on Thu Aug 12, 2010 7:18 pm

macgamer wrote:
Matthew 5:17-22 wrote:For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.



Jesus: "It is accomplished." John 19:30
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Re: Anti-Gay Bishop appointed to School of Divinity

Postby jollytiddlywink on Thu Aug 12, 2010 10:59 pm

macgamer wrote:
jollytiddlywink wrote:It's not that it isn't sinful anymore. It's rather that God, or rather Jesus, realised that humans could never successfully avoid sin and therefore a new mechanism for salvation was introduced and the old Law was stripped down to the most important parts: Love God, Love Thyself, Love Thy Neighbour.

A slightly curious conclusion to reach given:

I didn't write what you attribute to me.

I did, however, write this:
macgamer wrote:
jollytiddlywink wrote:Homosexuality is normal. It may not be the norm, but it is normal. [...] Nowhere do they say that homosexuality is abnormal... rather the opposite, in fact.

In the sense that homosexuality is not functionally associated with characterised physically or psychological disorders that impair such a person's ability to participate in society. However to say that it is a normal state given the sexual incompatibility of members of the same gender in terms of anatomy and fertility, is not true. The normal sexual attraction and practice is that which is able to maintain the species and so is selected for, this is reflected by statistics that the majority of the population is heterosexual reflecting a 'statistical norm'. And so heterosexual behaviour becomes understood as normative.


You, too, are guilty of failing to properly understand the terms 'normal' and 'norm.' And furthermore, your definition of 'normal' is not one that anyone else uses. In fact it flies in the face of the definitions other people use.
Which part of the fact that entire professional societies of medically and scientifically trained and qualified people utterly disagree with you is it that you don't understand? I promise you that they are all far better qualified to pronounce on this matter than you are. Or maybe you are a medical doctor? A psychiatrist? A psychologist? A sociologist? An expert in sexuality and gender studies?

I didn't think so.

And it should be clear, even to you (who have by your own admission masturbated but not otherwise engaged in any sexual act) that the majority of sexual practice undertaken by humans is masturbatory, which is most definitely not 'able to maintain the species.' Is everyone, including yourself, who has ever pleasured themselves abnormal? Of course not. Your definition of 'normal' is one that you have probably made up on the spot as a convenience, because otherwise you might have to admit the truth: the gays are normal (gasp!).
And while we're on the subject, I can assure you that two men are in fact anatomically compatible. If we weren't, we wouldn't have sex with each other... but we are, and we do. Sorry to disappoint.

One last thing: don't go whining about equal rights in adoption laws, because the bible tells you not to:
[quote] Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God; the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that shall resist shall receive to themselves damnation." St Paul's Epistle to the Romans (13, 1-2)

I note you have nothing to say about the rest of my critique of Scruton's article. I presume you can't offer any defence of his efforts, either, then.
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Re: Anti-Gay Bishop appointed to School of Divinity

Postby macgamer on Thu Aug 12, 2010 11:58 pm

jollytiddlywink wrote:I didn't write what you attribute to me.

Sorry, I've made the necessary amendment.

I did, however, write this:

jollytiddlywink wrote:You, too, are guilty of failing to properly understand the terms 'normal' and 'norm.' And furthermore, your definition of 'normal' is not one that anyone else uses. In fact it flies in the face of the definitions other people use.
Which part of the fact that entire professional societies of medically and scientifically trained and qualified people utterly disagree with you is it that you don't understand? I promise you that they are all far better qualified to pronounce on this matter than you are. Or maybe you are a medical doctor? A psychiatrist? A psychologist? A sociologist? An expert in sexuality and gender studies?

Well it all depends on what assumptions and principles they started from. Using the same data, two people can come to two different conclusions depending on their approach. Notice that I did not deny their conclusion that homosexuality is not directly associated with any physical or psychological disorders. I did say that given the function of sexuality, that of propagation of the species, same sex attraction and its physical expression is functionally disordered.

And it should be clear, even to you (who have by your own admission masturbated but not otherwise engaged in any sexual act) that the majority of sexual practice undertaken by humans is masturbatory, which is most definitely not 'able to maintain the species.' Is everyone, including yourself, who has ever pleasured themselves abnormal? Of course not. Your definition of 'normal' is one that you have probably made up on the spot as a convenience, because otherwise you might have to admit the truth: the gays are normal (gasp!).

If one were model a scenario in which instead of the current sexual orientation ratio, the majority of people were obligate homosexuals. After a couple of generations the sexual orientation of population would resemble the mix we have now.
And while we're on the subject, I can assure you that two men are in fact anatomically compatible. If we weren't, we wouldn't have sex with each other... but we are, and we do. Sorry to disappoint.

Various parts of the anatomy have evolved to facilitate specific functions. The anatomy of male and female genitalia are complimentary, with the latter resistant to infection. Whereas, penis and rectum are not complimentary and risk injuring each other. The intestine is rather thin and not resistant to physical impact, it is also a major source of potential infection. Similarly the mouth is not functionally adapted to be a receptacle unlikely to cause damage delicate and sensitive tissue, quite the opposite; it is filled with sharp teeth to cause damage to delicate tissue. I can't think of any more orifice-penis combinations.

One last thing: don't go whining about equal rights in adoption laws, because the bible tells you not to:
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God; the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that shall resist shall receive to themselves damnation." St Paul's Epistle to the Romans (13, 1-2)

Sounds like something that was used to justify the divine right of kings. I suppose that will be queens now.

I note you have nothing to say about the rest of my critique of Scruton's article. I presume you can't offer any defence of his efforts, either, then.

It was a bit of a lazy article for a philosopher, his comment about sacrifice was the strongest argument. The conclusion was good.
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Re: Anti-Gay Bishop appointed to School of Divinity

Postby jollytiddlywink on Sat Aug 14, 2010 12:32 pm

Whoops, I've posted twice....
Last edited by jollytiddlywink on Sat Aug 14, 2010 12:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Anti-Gay Bishop appointed to School of Divinity

Postby jollytiddlywink on Sat Aug 14, 2010 12:33 pm

macgamer wrote:
jollytiddlywink wrote:You, too, are guilty of failing to properly understand the terms 'normal' and 'norm.' And furthermore, your definition of 'normal' is not one that anyone else uses. In fact it flies in the face of the definitions other people use.
Which part of the fact that entire professional societies of medically and scientifically trained and qualified people utterly disagree with you is it that you don't understand? ...

Well it all depends on what assumptions and principles they started from. Using the same data, two people can come to two different conclusions depending on their approach. Notice that I did not deny their conclusion that homosexuality is not directly associated with any physical or psychological disorders. I did say that given the function of sexuality, that of propagation of the species, same sex attraction and its physical expression is functionally disordered.

So, tens of thousands of trained and professionally qualified experts in the relevant fields have examined the evidence and concluded that homosexuality is normal, and your answer is, "Well, that's their perspective, but from where I'm standing..."
Its nice to see you don't deny their conclusion. It is, after all, the truth. Please note, further to this, that homosexuality is not indirectly associated with any physical or psychological disorders, either. LGBT people do, yes, attempt or commit suicide at a rate higher than their heterosexual peers. All evidence points to this being the result of undeserved social stigma and abuse, and nothing to do with their sexuality or gender expression per se.

macgamer wrote:
jollytiddlywink wrote:And it should be clear, even to you (who have by your own admission masturbated but not otherwise engaged in any sexual act) that the majority of sexual practice undertaken by humans is masturbatory, which is most definitely not 'able to maintain the species.' Is everyone, including yourself, who has ever pleasured themselves abnormal? Of course not. Your definition of 'normal' is one that you have probably made up on the spot as a convenience, because otherwise you might have to admit the truth: the gays are normal (gasp!).

If one were model a scenario in which instead of the current sexual orientation ratio, the majority of people were obligate homosexuals. After a couple of generations the sexual orientation of population would resemble the mix we have now.


First, what you have written is not a response or a rebuttal to what I wrote. It is a non sequitur.
Secondly, your non sequitur is false, as well as being poorly written and grammatically incorrect. Your 'logic' if we can stretch to calling it that, implies that the current level of homosexuality and bisexuality in humanity should virtually die out within a few generations, but plainly it does not. Unless you are arguing that a majority of gay or bi people in a population would be a statistical anomaly, and then, yes, I agree that the population would soon level out again with roughly 10% being gay... as is normal.

macgamer wrote:
jollytiddlywink wrote:And while we're on the subject, I can assure you that two men are in fact anatomically compatible. If we weren't, we wouldn't have sex with each other... but we are, and we do. Sorry to disappoint.

Various parts of the anatomy have evolved to facilitate specific functions...
Similarly the mouth is not functionally adapted to be a receptacle unlikely to cause damage delicate and sensitive tissue, quite the opposite; it is filled with sharp teeth to cause damage to delicate tissue. I can't think of any more orifice-penis combinations.

Well, I must be getting somewhere with this if you've admitted that we have evolved.
All I can say about the adaptations of the mouth, is that it is multi-purpose like our hands. We can punch people, wield hammers and spears, throw stones, or caress people. Similarly, the mouth can eat things or kiss people... in various ways. If you end up biting them (when they didn't ask you to) then you aren't very good at it.

macgamer wrote:
jollytiddlywink wrote:One last thing: don't go whining about equal rights in adoption laws, because the bible tells you not to:
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God; the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that shall resist shall receive to themselves damnation." St Paul's Epistle to the Romans (13, 1-2)

Sounds like something that was used to justify the divine right of kings. I suppose that will be queens now.

Careful now. We wouldn't want anyone to think you don't like the gays. <_<

macgamer wrote:
jollytiddlywink wrote:I note you have nothing to say about the rest of my critique of Scruton's article. I presume you can't offer any defence of his efforts, either, then.

It was a bit of a lazy article for a philosopher, his comment about sacrifice was the strongest argument. The conclusion was good.

No, it wasn't. The conclusion, as I demonstrated, was rubbish. Even if he had not resorted to further untruths and faulty premises in the conclusion itself (which he did), his attempt to sum up an article so full of trash would have been lamentable. As it is, it would be comic, if it were not so insulting that he seemed to think he could get away with it. "A bit lazy?" I've seen my dog sleep for twenty hours in a day and exhibit more energy and care than is in that article! It is pathetically feeble, and it thus encapsulates the state of debate on the subject.
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Re: Anti-Gay Bishop appointed to School of Divinity

Postby jollytiddlywink on Sat Aug 14, 2010 3:07 pm

RedCelt69 wrote:Have you considered (or attempted) leaving a message on his blog?
http://rogerscruton.wordpress.com/


I've considered it now that you've suggested it, but given that his blog now seems to be inactive, as the last post was months ago... interestingly a post by 'Paula' about the adoption of a child by herself and her wife is the last one on the page. It remains unanswered by Scruton. I suspect that carrying on the argument on the sinner will reach more readers than will posting on his blog. But I might yet do so anyway.
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Re: Anti-Gay Bishop appointed to School of Divinity

Postby RedCelt69 on Sat Aug 14, 2010 3:20 pm

macgamer wrote:Similarly the mouth is not functionally adapted to be a receptacle unlikely to cause damage delicate and sensitive tissue, quite the opposite; it is filled with sharp teeth to cause damage to delicate tissue.

Reading your opinions on sexuality, I have a mental image of Jeremy Clarkson having his position on Top Gear usurped by an Amish person. No, they have no working knowledge of cars or what it feels like to drive them... but listen-up, whilst they give you their opinion.

Depriving yourself of the joys (seriously, no other less-substantive word applies) of oral sex is a commitment to religion that nobody but nobody should commit themselves to.

If I believed in your God, I would need him/her/it to make a personal appearance (in the company of every cherubim and seraphim to witness the avowal) to tell me that the creator of the universe would be very angry indeed if I partook in the giving or receiving of oral sex. And even then, I'd probably say "screw you" and continue as I have been.

Is it OK for a man to perform on a woman, if he doesn't enter any of her orifices? Is God orifice-inclined? Should we make more of the (presumed) existence of atronomical black holes than we currently have been? Or do all holes have an "event horizon" (the point of no return)? Because that would cause problems for the "rhythm method".
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Re: Anti-Gay Bishop appointed to School of Divinity

Postby jollytiddlywink on Sat Aug 14, 2010 3:42 pm

macgamer wrote:obligate homosexuals


Having been argued out of using the phrase "people with same sex attraction" when you mean to say "homosexuals," I see that you are still not content to use the word 'homosexual' when you need to convey the idea 'homosexual', but feel compelled to add an unnecessary word in front of it.
There are several problems with this. The first is that 'obligate' is usually a verb, and so it is another case of poor English in your writing. But it crops up multiple times, and so it is not a casual mistake. I find myself resorting to a dictionary with monotonous regularity when arguing with you, and here is anther selection:

obligate (v): 1 to bind or oblige someone by contract, duty or moral obligation
2 to bind someone by gratitude
(biological adj) 3 said of an organism, especially a bacterium: limited to specific functions and by specific conditions

Even given the level of English you sometimes display, it seems safe to assume that you did not intentionally suggest that homosexuals are obliged to be homosexual by contractual undertaking, by duty to Queen and Country, or by moral obligation. Neither does it seem likely that you are suggesting that homosexuals are so happy to be men (or women) that they have to show their gratitude by having sex with other men (or women).
That leaves us with 3, a term typically applied to bacteria, in this case suggesting that homosexuality is... what? Limiting? The only thing of which homosexuals are capable, or might they, at a push, manage to redecorate your kitchen or spruce up your wardrobe in half an hour of trite television?
Or are you trying to insinuate that homosexuals are not worthy of being described as such, without at least being ringed by a cordon sanitaire of adjectives more usually used to describe things that humans devote a lot of time and effort to killing in enormous quantities? Or are you just reacting bitterly to being soundly disabused of your use of terms like SSA and looking for a new linguistic subterfuge to get around an awkward flaw in your argument?
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Re: Anti-Gay Bishop appointed to School of Divinity

Postby macgamer on Sat Aug 14, 2010 6:14 pm

jollytiddlywink wrote: Please note, further to this, that homosexuality is not indirectly associated with any physical or psychological disorders, either. LGBT people do, yes, attempt or commit suicide at a rate higher than their heterosexual peers. All evidence points to this being the result of undeserved social stigma and abuse, and nothing to do with their sexuality or gender expression per se.

It would be interesting to make a comparison between relationship duration and promiscuity.
In fact there seems to be a trend in 'open monogamy' :http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/29/us/29sfmetro.html?_r=1
Which has given rise to this research program: http://crgs.sfsu.edu/research/gcsintro.htm#whathave

jollytiddlywink wrote:And it should be clear, even to you (who have by your own admission masturbated but not otherwise engaged in any sexual act) that the majority of sexual practice undertaken by humans is masturbatory, which is most definitely not 'able to maintain the species.' Is everyone, including yourself, who has ever pleasured themselves abnormal? Of course not. Your definition of 'normal' is one that you have probably made up on the spot as a convenience, because otherwise you might have to admit the truth: the gays are normal (gasp!)

A homosexual orientation, or the trait whereby an individual is attracted to the same sex, is maladapted. The individual for one reason or another seeks sexual unions that are intrinsic infertile. Homosexual behaviour is incompatible will the proliferation of genes. Such an individual has zero reproductive success and so zero fitness.

macgamer wrote:]
Well, I must be getting somewhere with this if you've admitted that we have evolved.

Show me where I have denied evolution.
All I can say about the adaptations of the mouth, is that it is multi-purpose like our hands. We can punch people, wield hammers and spears, throw stones, or caress people. Similarly, the mouth can eat things or kiss people... in various ways. If you end up biting them (when they didn't ask you to) then you aren't very good at it.

Our hands have a tough layer of skin, moderately sensitive and have a high degree of motor accuracy, which is why they have my diverse functions. We kiss with our lips which are also sensitive and have evolved to be accurately deformed to facilitate speech. Our mouths have not evolved to accommodate anything from the external environment which isn't going to be eaten. The penis and vagina on the other hand have co-evolved (Wallen & Llyod, 2008) http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... x/abstract [Be warned it might be a bit racy for some]

obligate (v): 1 to bind or oblige someone by contract, duty or moral obligation
2 to bind someone by gratitude
(biological adj) 3 said of an organism, especially a bacterium: limited to specific functions and by specific conditions

I'm glad I've introduced you to another usage of 'obligate'.
That leaves us with 3, a term typically applied to bacteria, in this case suggesting that homosexuality is... what? Limiting? The only thing of which homosexuals are capable, or might they, at a push, manage to redecorate your kitchen or spruce up your wardrobe in half an hour of trite television?
Or are you trying to insinuate that homosexuals are not worthy of being described as such, without at least being ringed by a cordon sanitaire of adjectives more usually used to describe things that humans devote a lot of time and effort to killing in enormous quantities? Or are you just reacting bitterly to being soundly disabused of your use of terms like SSA and looking for a new linguistic subterfuge to get around an awkward flaw in your argument?

No I was actually acknowledging that sexuality can be understood as a continuum. At one end strict (obligate) heterosexuals, i.e. that are only attracted to and have sex with members of the opposite sex; and at the other strict homosexuals, who are only attracted to and have sex with members of their own sex.
"Progress should mean that we are always changing the world to fit the vision, instead we are always changing the vision."
- G.K. Chesterton, Orthodoxy, 1908
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Re: Anti-Gay Bishop appointed to School of Divinity

Postby jollytiddlywink on Sat Aug 14, 2010 10:50 pm

macgamer wrote:
jollytiddlywink wrote: Please note, further to this, that homosexuality is not indirectly associated with any physical or psychological disorders, either...

It would be interesting to make a comparison between relationship duration and promiscuity.
In fact there seems to be a trend in 'open monogamy' :http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/29/us/29sfmetro.html?_r=1
Which has given rise to this research program: http://crgs.sfsu.edu/research/gcsintro.htm#whathave


Another non-sequitur from you. Care to answer my point?
And, to address yours, if you bothered to read those two links, you would have noticed that the research does not specify how these couples were selected, or on what basis. It makes little sense to carry out research into such matters if you don't get a roughly 50/50 split between monogamous and non-monogamous partners, and so we might well assume (if we were feeling more charitable than you) that the rates of monogamy otherwise among gay couples are more or less comparable with those among straight couples.

macgamer wrote: A homosexual orientation, or the trait whereby an individual is attracted to the same sex, is maladapted. The individual for one reason or another seeks sexual unions that are intrinsic infertile. Homosexual behaviour is incompatible will the proliferation of genes. Such an individual has zero reproductive success and so zero fitness.

You've changed terminology. Again. We were discussing 'normal' and 'the norm' and now you've jumped to 'maladaptive.' And homosexuality is not maladaptive. We've covered this ground before. I provided this link, and you, unsurprisingly, went very quiet on the subject.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/04/magaz ... ral&src=me
It discusses homosexual behaviour in the animal kingdom, and also discusses the evolutionary and genetic benefits of homosexuality. After all, if it were maladaptive, then there would not be 10% or so of the species with this orientation generation after generation after generation.

macgamer wrote:Show me where I have denied evolution.

"In the beginning..." Does that ring any bells? Or is Genesis one of the bits of that book that isn't convenient for you, so you ignore it?

macgamer wrote:Our mouths have not evolved to accommodate anything from the external environment which isn't going to be eaten.

Small children stick virtually everything into their mouths, including their own fingers, and eat very little of it. How many people do you know who chewed off their own fingers when they were young? And you're going to insist on your point?

macgamer wrote:No I was actually acknowledging that sexuality can be understood as a continuum. At one end strict (obligate) heterosexuals, i.e. that are only attracted to and have sex with members of the opposite sex; and at the other strict homosexuals, who are only attracted to and have sex with members of their own sex.


Spare me. Having sex with only those of the same gender IS THE DEFINITION OF HOMOSEXUAL! You don't need to affix a bacterial adjective to the term to make that clear... all you've done is construct a rather sinister tautology and stick to your habit of using different terms than anyone else, apparently just for the hell of it.
For your information, there is a term for the people who inhabit the middle of sexuality spectrum. They are bisexuals, or 'bi' for short. Just so you don't further muddy the waters by inventing more terms that don't need to be invented.
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Re: Anti-Gay Bishop appointed to School of Divinity

Postby Senethro on Sun Aug 15, 2010 8:37 am

Huh, Macgamer is misapplying evolutionary evolutionary theory to justify his particular morality.

(Who knows what comes next?)
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Re: Anti-Gay Bishop appointed to School of Divinity

Postby macgamer on Sun Aug 15, 2010 3:10 pm

jollytiddlywink wrote: Please note, further to this, that homosexuality is not indirectly associated with any physical or psychological disorders, either...

Everything has to be spelt out for you. I was suggesting that depending of the form of homosexual lifestyle it can risk high rates of STI transmission, which is what that study is aiming to analyse. If even gay couple are accepting of promiscuity within marriage this does not bode well for health. As much as it would in a heterosexual marriage. Generally heterosexually relationships there is an expectation of fidelity, if this is entirely absent from a large enough number of homosexual relationships there will be no hope at controlling STIs, especially given the comment in the link about unprotected sex.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/04/magaz ... ral&src=me
It discusses homosexual behaviour in the animal kingdom, and also discusses the evolutionary and genetic benefits of homosexuality. After all, if it were maladaptive, then there would not be 10% or so of the species with this orientation generation after generation after generation.

That example about albatrosses, one of the 'homosexual' partners will have zero sexual reproductive success. The only way that it may be beneficial would be if was an example of kin selection where an aunt / uncle / cousin helps improve the reproductive success of their relation. Clearly this does not require homosexual sex. So really the only way that homosexual sex can be understood to be a beneficial trait is if one is having incestuous intercourse which maintains the bond, and in exchange resources are used to raise the offspring resulting from heterosexual sex.

I suppose a human equivalent would be some sort of menage a trois with a homosexual being the third party.

This trait does not seem beneficial enough to be selected for, so homosexuality is unlikely to have a genetic component, although I'm not ruling it out. So instead the causal factors are more likely to be environmental.

"In the beginning..." Does that ring any bells? Or is Genesis one of the bits of that book that isn't convenient for you, so you ignore it?

Thanks, but I don't need you to interpret the bible for me. Provided that I acknowledge that God is the Creator and Sustainer of the Universe, it is up to our own consciences as to how it all came about. So evolution is the best theory to explain how the diversity of species came to be.

Spare me. Having sex with only those of the same gender IS THE DEFINITION OF HOMOSEXUAL! You don't need to affix a bacterial adjective to the term to make that clear... all you've done is construct a rather sinister tautology and stick to your habit of using different terms than anyone else, apparently just for the hell of it.
For your information, there is a term for the people who inhabit the middle of sexuality spectrum. They are bisexuals, or 'bi' for short. Just so you don't further muddy the waters by inventing more terms that don't need to be invented.

There is a difference between attraction and practice. For me, a homosexual is person who practices homosexuality. Attraction is no always black and white, rather a continuum. A married person who has children and practices heterosexuality, may also have also experience homosexual attraction from time to time but never engage in homosexual sex. This does not make them a homosexual or a bi-sexual. They are a heterosexual.
"Progress should mean that we are always changing the world to fit the vision, instead we are always changing the vision."
- G.K. Chesterton, Orthodoxy, 1908
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Re: Anti-Gay Bishop appointed to School of Divinity

Postby Senethro on Sun Aug 15, 2010 5:22 pm

macgamer wrote: So evolution is the best theory to explain how the diversity of species came to be.

And its also terribly convenient when you need to invent a reason to bash the homos!

Darwin didn't describe his theory so you could try to dictate current social mores based on your version of evolutionary history. For shame, biologist!
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Re: Anti-Gay Bishop appointed to School of Divinity

Postby Al on Sun Aug 15, 2010 10:47 pm

macgamer wrote:There is a difference between attraction and practice. For me, a homosexual is person who practices homosexuality. Attraction is no always black and white, rather a continuum. A married person who has children and practices heterosexuality, may also have also experience homosexual attraction from time to time but never engage in homosexual sex. This does not make them a homosexual or a bi-sexual. They are a heterosexual.


So, your wisdom - gained after, I presume, your many years of study in the field - can be boiled down to "homosexuals are homosexual and heterosexuals are heterosexual". What an insight.
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Re: Anti-Gay Bishop appointed to School of Divinity

Postby Al on Sun Aug 15, 2010 10:55 pm

macgamer wrote:male and female genitalia are complimentary


This is an interesting idea about which I'd like to learn more. What do they say to each other? "I love what you've done with your hair" or "My, you've grown since I last saw you".

penis and rectum are not complimentary and risk injuring each other.
Violence often follows insults.
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