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Conscription of the work shy?

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Conscription of the work shy?

Postby macgamer on Sun Nov 07, 2010 11:25 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11706545

Is this giving the long-term unemployed experience of a day's labour and thereby the encouragement they need to change their disposition or borderline fascism to appease the Daily Mail readership?

The Lib-Dems seem to be going for it.
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Re: Conscription of the work shy?

Postby jollytiddlywink on Mon Nov 08, 2010 12:35 am

Well done on using the correct definition of appeasement; giving fascists what they want.

I'm not sure what purpose exactly this is meant to serve. If you've been unemployed for a while, either you are trying to find a job or you're not. If you are still looking, is spending a couple of weeks doing manual labour going to help (unless you're a manual labourer anyway)? If you're not looking, and don't want to work, presumably a few week's work and then back on the dole would be preferable to getting a job.
So I think this won't be any help at all, at least for the reasons given. I suspect that as appeasement goes, this is the equivalent of turning up in the Munich of Daily-Mail-land and instead of offering Prague, saying 'here's a bottle of really nice beer made in Prague, would you like that instead?'

Frankly, I think they'd be on a better idea if they made it a public works project: picking up litter, painting over graffiti, planting trees, helping build roads, etc. Not because the unemployed should be punished or because they are supposedly work-shy, but because paying them a bit more to do work would be good Keynesian policy, and because the end results would either be socially (clean parks,nice trees) useful, or economically (newly-built infrastructure) useful. And that would surely be a better policy all round. Which means the Tories won't do it, of course.
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Re: Conscription of the work shy?

Postby macgamer on Mon Nov 08, 2010 10:11 am

They are supposedly publishing a white-paper on the matter on Thursday so it will be interest what exactly they have in mind when they say labour and who exactly would qualify.

Public works seems to resolve some of the economic problems for Germany and Italy that and defaulting on their loans and refusing to pay reparations. It might be an option if things get really bad - Britain defaulting on its loans and refusing to pay EU membership fees ;)
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Re: Conscription of the work shy?

Postby macgamer on Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:59 pm

Iain Duncan Smith has given a speech on welfare reform:
http://www.dwp.gov.uk/newsroom/minister ... 1-10.shtml

Iain Duncan Smith wrote:Reforms – headlines messages
[...]
First, to those who are vulnerable and unable to work, this White Paper proves we remain absolutely committed to supporting you.

We will continue to provide extra support for those with disabilities, caring responsibilities and children.

Second, for those out of work who are capable of working, our reforms mean it will always pay for you to take a job.

And by unifying out-of-work benefits, Housing Benefit and Tax Credits into a simplified single Universal Credit, we will end the risk and fear associated with moving in and out of work.

But this is a two way street. We expect people to play their part too. Under this Government choosing not to work if you can work is no longer an option.

That is our contract – we will make work pay and support you, through the Work Programme, to find a job, but in return we expect you to cooperate.

That is why we are developing sanctions for those who refuse to play by the rules, as well as targeted work activity for those who need to get used to the habits of work.

Impacts of reform

Some 2.5 million households will get higher entitlements as a result of the move to Universal Credit.

We expect to lift 350,000 children and 500,000 working-age adults out of poverty by the standard measure.

This is just our analysis of the static effects of reform.

Analysing the dynamic effects isn’t easy, but we estimate that the reforms could reduce the number of workless households by around 300,000.

And around 700,000 low-earning workers will be able to keep more of their earnings as they increase their hours.

Third, this White Paper delivers a fair deal for the taxpayer.

We expect to reduce administrative costs by more than half a billion pounds a year, and to reduce levels of fraud and error by £1 billion a year.

And clearly everyone will benefit if we move people off welfare and into work.
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Re: Conscription of the work shy?

Postby zachtan2003 on Tue Dec 07, 2010 12:38 pm

I lived with a couple in a house a few months ago. They were both unemployed and they were not looking for jobs. They rented the room to me and required cash only payment for the rent.

They get benefits and payment from the government and also they get cash by renting out the rooms in the house.

They told me that there were no jobs in St Andrews and kept complaining about this and that. From my point of view, people have to move to a place where they can get jobs. I moved to St Andrews because there was a job for me here. I mean, if the couple wanted to enjoy the peace and nice beach in the town, there are costs they have to pay. If they can not afford the price ( jobs, rents, living costs etc) then they will need to move.


I don't know what to say about this but as a foreigner, I do think it is a main issue needs to be sorted for the future of the country.
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Re: Conscription of the work shy?

Postby Spike on Tue Dec 07, 2010 12:45 pm

Congratulations, you've helped someone commit benefit fraud and most likely tax evasion. Paying someone or being paid cash in hand is very dodgy at best and incredibly illegal at worst.
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Re: Conscription of the work shy?

Postby Anonymouse on Tue Dec 07, 2010 1:28 pm

Spike wrote:Congratulations, you've helped someone commit benefit fraud and most likely tax evasion. Paying someone or being paid cash in hand is very dodgy at best and incredibly illegal at worst.


It's never illegal.
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Re: Conscription of the work shy?

Postby RedCelt69 on Tue Dec 07, 2010 3:51 pm

Spike wrote:Congratulations, you've helped someone commit benefit fraud and most likely tax evasion. Paying someone or being paid cash in hand is very dodgy at best and incredibly illegal at worst.

Can something be incredibly illegal? Isn't it a binary state, like pregnancy?
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Re: Conscription of the work shy?

Postby wild_quinine on Tue Dec 07, 2010 5:04 pm

zachtan2003 wrote:I don't know what to say about this but as a foreigner, I do think it is a main issue needs to be sorted for the future of the country.


I don't know what to say about this but as a tax-paying citizen, it kind of bugs me that you've contributed to the situation and yet have some third party wisdom on how important it is that we sort it out. Kind of like having your taste in porn criticized by the guy who stole your laptop.

RedCelt69 wrote:Isn't it a binary state, like pregnancy?


Hell, I'm not even sure pregnancy is a binary state.
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Re: Conscription of the work shy?

Postby Spike on Tue Dec 07, 2010 7:25 pm

Anonymouse wrote:
Spike wrote:Congratulations, you've helped someone commit benefit fraud and most likely tax evasion. Paying someone or being paid cash in hand is very dodgy at best and incredibly illegal at worst.


It's never illegal.


Sure it's only Tax evasion, False accounting, Underpayment of class 4 National insurance Contributions, Money Laundering, Fraud and possible Benefit Fraud...

[SARCASM]nothing Illegal about any of those![/SARCASM]
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Re: Conscription of the work shy?

Postby Gubbins on Tue Dec 07, 2010 8:34 pm

Spike wrote:It's never illegal.


Sure it's only Tax evasion, False accounting, Underpayment of class 4 National insurance Contributions, Money Laundering, Fraud and possible Benefit Fraud...[/quote]

Paying someone or being paid in cash isn't illegal, failing to declare it to the Inland Revenue is, which is (I think) Anonymouse's argument. As far as I can tell, however, there is no legal reason why Zachtan2003 should have declared the money as I doubt he was due to pay tax here anyway. The landlords, on the other hand, are accusable of the offences you mention.
...then again, that is only my opinion.
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Re: Conscription of the work shy?

Postby Spike on Wed Dec 08, 2010 10:02 am

Which is why I said that he helped someone commit all those offences ^_^
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Re: Conscription of the work shy?

Postby zachtan2003 on Wed Dec 08, 2010 7:37 pm

Hmmmm maybe you are right. I pay tax and national insurance to the British government every month as well... I can understand how you feel.

But at first, I thought they were the old fashioned kind of persons who preferred cash rather than bank transfer and I didn't know that they were unemployed. This is my fault as I should have done more research before I decided to move in.


It was really dodgy as I told them that I wanted to move out.... after 2 months staying in the house, they threatened to throw away my stuffs and wanted me to get out of the house by 5pm on that day. I told them that I have paid the rent until the end of the month and they said ' Where's the contract' and 'You have found a cheaper place, haven't you?'.
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Re: Conscription of the work shy?

Postby Spike on Wed Dec 08, 2010 8:30 pm

If you're feeling particularly vindictive you could always report them to the department of work and pensions, or even to HMRC.
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Re: Conscription of the work shy?

Postby jollytiddlywink on Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:23 am

Spike wrote:If you're feeling particularly vindictive you could always report them to the department of work and pensions, or even to HMRC.


Never mind feeling vindictive. If you're feeling honest, report them!
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Re: Conscription of the work shy?

Postby Kegrad on Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:29 am

Slightly offtopic, but for future reference, zachtan2003, even if you don't have a contract, you still have rights. I'd imagine it'd be hard to show either way, but have a look at the shelter website for more details about housing law (renting etc). http://www.shelter.org.uk/
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