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ExPat Right to vote?

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ExPat Right to vote?

Postby RedCelt69 on Tue May 17, 2011 9:48 am

Well, this has annoyed me.

If you leave a country (and 15 years is a reasonable cut-off point, imo) you lose the right to decide who runs that country. Those who do live in that country - and are the ones who have to live with the result of the election - they not you get to choose who runs their country. Not you. I don't care how many Germans you killed in the war. If you want to vote, campaign for the Italians to give you a vote; not the country you deemed unfit to live in.
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Re: ExPat Right to vote?

Postby macgamer on Tue May 17, 2011 10:21 am

I agree with you. Although the only case they may have is if they pay certain UK taxes. There should be representation for those who are taxed. Perhaps create a special overseas constituency to represent them.
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Re: ExPat Right to vote?

Postby Delts on Tue May 17, 2011 2:07 pm

I completely disagree with both of you. Despite being abroad the laws of the UK still heavily effect expats. Especially with regards to foreign policy. A lot of expats live abroad to work for the foreign operations of British companies, not just retired pensioners who wanted a bit of sun. Is it fair that these people get no say?

How our government acts also has an influence on these peoples lives with regards to foreign attitudes towards Brits. I'm sure oil workers in middle east and african countries are likely to feel very strongly about how our government portrays us, especially when bad pr could put their lives in danger.

Whilst I feel that they should not have a vote in local council elections unless they still have property in the UK they certainly should still be allowed to vote in general elections no matter how long they've been out of the country. Unless they have property and pay council tax then local elections do indeed have very little influence on them, if any at all.

It's not a case of shunning the UK, I'd argue that most who felt that way would have gone on to get citizenship of their adopted countries, although I have no figures to back this up sadly. The idea of being denied a say in the country that still governs a significant part of your life just because you don't meet some residency criteria (which I'm struggling to find) I find slightly absurd.
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Re: ExPat Right to vote?

Postby RedCelt69 on Tue May 17, 2011 4:15 pm

My parents were economic migrants. They left Scotland and moved to England shortly before I was born.

English friends would ask me, on occasion, what my views were on Scottish independence (when talk of a referendum was first raised). My views, I explained, were completely meaningless. If I'm not living in the country, I have no right to offer my input into how people in my "home" country are governed. I was, after all, not going to have to live with the consequences. I mean... I had views, but they were my own. I certainly deserved no say.

Since I relocated to Scotland, I do have a say. Whatever the result of a referendum, I (along with everyone else living here) will be affected (not effected) by the consequences.

The same applies to ex pats. Bringing in some mention of taxation or "how the country is perceived abroad" is a non-argument. In the course of 15 years, 3 or 4 governments will have come and gone. Your connection to the political reality is more or less absent. No matter how many British newspapers you read. The people experiencing a country's governance are the ones who have a say in how it should be governed.

If they are working abroad, or have another similar (good) reason for not being in the country... they can get their vote back when they return.

I mean, Jesus, prisoners have a more valid right to vote than ex pats. And they haven't got it.
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Re: ExPat Right to vote?

Postby RedCelt69 on Tue May 17, 2011 6:30 pm

Additionally, from that article:
"It is estimated that 5.5 million UK citizens live abroad, but fewer than 13,000 had registered on UK electoral rolls by 2008."

So, of those estimated ex pats, 0.2% voted. That's a very low turnout, even compared to home-based voting apathy.

Imagine, though, if one general election every UK citizen living abroad decided to vote. 5.5 million added to the population of the UK (68 million). That would have more than a little significance for the end result. And those 5.5 million wouldn't reap the benefits (or disasters) that they gave to us.
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Re: ExPat Right to vote?

Postby jollytiddlywink on Tue May 17, 2011 9:27 pm

I don't agree with you, redcelt. While there may need to be some cut-off point, as you say, I think it's unsustainable to suggest that just because British citizens are overseas means that they surrender any ability to vote for the government here. Consider the case of people who are overseas for economic reasons. If they work for an international company and their job moves to, lets say, Dubai, and then to Cairo, and then to Hong Kong, and then to Beijing and then to San Francisco, each time for 18 months or so. They'll be away from home for most of a decade, with no chance to vote in any of those places. Do they, then, simply fall of the face of the political earth? Do they have no say in how anywhere is governed?
I disagree with you that just because a British citizen no longer lives here means that they have no interest in how the nation they belong to, are part of, is governed. I'm Scottish and I'm currently living in England. I wholly refuse to follow you in denying myself the right to a voice in the politics of the country where I was born. You may do so if you wish, but I certainly will not.
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Re: ExPat Right to vote?

Postby Delts on Tue May 17, 2011 11:38 pm

RedCelt69 wrote:Additionally, from that article:
"It is estimated that 5.5 million UK citizens live abroad, but fewer than 13,000 had registered on UK electoral rolls by 2008."


Having read the electoral commission website this low turn out is explained due to low awareness of expats ability to vote and only recent legislation making it relatively easy to obtain a postal or proxy vote.

To take an extreme and absurd case, do you agree with the situation where a British Soldier is stationed to a foreign country, elects to do multiple tours there, losing the right to vote? Away from the front line it could be feasible for a soldier to stay away for several years. Just because they haven't lived in Britain they have no right to say what the government does, right?
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Re: ExPat Right to vote?

Postby Gubbins on Tue May 17, 2011 11:55 pm

RedCelt69 wrote:My parents were economic migrants.

So are mine. And so am I. Different countries, different reasons, and both my parents and myself are looking forward to moving back to Scotland whenever circumstances allow.

For my own part, I am immensely frustrated that I may be out of the country and thus incapable of voting in any Scottish independence referendum that may happen. I had resigned myself to this, but this thread got me thinking: in the modern era, what level of interest should you need to have a say in how a democratic country is run? What about if you are paying taxes primarily in that country? What if your main source of income comes from that country? What if you have a (government or private) pension coming from that country? What if you are in the country on a temporary or student visa? What if you are a foreign national with a residency permit? How long do you have to be in a country to be eligible to vote? Should all the above categories have an equal vote to someone who is a permanent resident?

Allow me to test the water with the example of my parents. They arrived in Australia (where voting is compulsory) a week before a general election. They had no idea who the parties or their policies were (arguably this could be their fault, but this was in the days before the Encyclopaedia Internetia). Should their vote have counted as much as an Australian's? They are now resident in Portugal, but continue to receive a UK pension. Should they still be eligible to vote in UK elections (which govern their income)?

Here's a suggestion I've been mulling over: a person can cast a single vote for their country of residency. If they move country, they can either choose to take that vote with them, or transfer that vote to their destination country. One person, one vote, one country. Should be relatively easy to police - in Europe if nowhere else. On the other hand, if only 0.2% of expats vote, then it's fairly inconsequential (especially without AV) whether they have the vote or not: we might as well let those who want to.
...then again, that is only my opinion.
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Re: ExPat Right to vote?

Postby RedCelt69 on Wed May 18, 2011 9:01 am

I could be more easily convinced if a vote wasn't a binary thing; one man one vote.

Someone who has spent more than 15 years living in a different country should not have the same voting power (because, for instance, they have a house in the UK) as someone who lives the experience day in day out.

If people have *some* say in the politics of a country that they aren't living in (whether because of taxation, pension or their property) it would be more defensible if they had *some* vote.

Perhaps there should be a tally-system, whereby the level of your citizenry could be decided on a number of factors: your knowledge of politics, your possession of property, your level of incarceration and whether or not you actually live in the country. Those who possess those (and whatever other characteristics) get the full 10 points to spend on their preferred party. Everyone else... they get to spend their few points as they like.

Perhaps we should hold a referendum to change the voting system?

That would be bound to go well.
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Re: ExPat Right to vote?

Postby Hennessy on Wed May 18, 2011 4:02 pm

Disagree with you redcelt.

There's an interesting article I was reading not so long ago about Irish emigration (those who leave the country to try and get away from grinding poverty or the lack of opportunities are cut off from voting) and it struck me that this country has a bit of a recent history of emigration too.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... d-election
(article on Irish emigration)

Countless millions went off to populate the colonies during the Empire, some of whom are still alive, but there is a comparatively recent history of emigration as well. Not as prominent as our immigration problem but it appears this country is bleeding out predominantly white, comparatively wealthy skilled workers and being transfused with relatively unskilled poor people from the the most brutal and backward corners of the world,"White flight" as they say, affecting a whole country.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... he-UK.html


I'd support these people being entitled to vote, if only in the vague hope their continued link to the country might lure their children back here to keep alive some sense of British Civilisation (which is leaving in dribs and drabs along with them).
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Re: ExPat Right to vote?

Postby Haunted on Thu May 19, 2011 11:10 am

I agree largely with Redcelt that ex-pats have no business voting in constituencies in which they no longer live.

However, these people do still have some interest in the government of the UK and one of the best solutions I've heard would involve in the creation of an MP for ex-pats. This way they get representation without corrupting the constituencies where they don't live.
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Re: ExPat Right to vote?

Postby Humphrey on Fri May 20, 2011 1:42 pm

Well, i'm now an expat living in the USA and personally I agree with Redcelt and Haunted. I am resident for tax purposes in the US and I pay taxes to the federal government and the state. I no longer pay tax in the UK and I'm actually in the process of claiming tax back off them. So why should I have the right to vote in UK elections if I am no longer contributing to that society ?

Haunted wrote:However, these people do still have some interest in the government of the UK and one of the best solutions I've heard would involve in the creation of an MP for ex-pats. This way they get representation without corrupting the constituencies where they don't live.


This is a fair solution but I think the cost of implementing it outweighs the benefits. Plus most expats probably don't give a toss anyway.
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