Let the American bashing commence

[larkvi]

A very good post. I think you win the bottle of port this week, old boy.



Excellent. I even still have a bit of that Scotch around from the last floor prize (though I wouldn't touch the Thai wine...)

[Deej]

Ya'll do seem to spend a lot of time thinking about ways to slam Americans. I won't get into a fight with you, but I will say this: there is a lot more to living here in the states than all the stuff ya'll yell about. I AM one of the poverty ridden people; I take in less than 12000 pounds a year and am raising two children and going to uni full time to boot. I pay for it completely through scholarships as I am not eligible for federal aid. I have, in the last three years, worked as many as three part time jobs at a time. I have no health insurance. However, I have learned where all the free things to do in Atlanta are to be found, and I know which hospital to go to in a dire emergency. There ARE plans for indigents. Nobody ever talks about this sort of thing. But there are plans in place and smart people can find them. I lack for little and live debt free because I have learned how to do so. I only buy what I can afford and save for the things I need. It is not easy, but I will make my way to St. Andrews next year and scholarships will most likely pay my way. Please don't scream about us if you don't have all the facts. I know many of you hate our government, but there are a lot of positives that come out of it. People like me can own a home, and there are programs that make sure my kids have hot school lunches, lunches I cannot afford. It's not ALL bad. No government is perfect. And I can't make any excuses for things that go on that affect other countries adversely. That is indeed a bad thing. But the US has given so much to so many countries, too. Please don't let that sort of thing get too far out of your mind. It's not right to blame all of us for governmental things; I don't think badly of you because of things your government does. Well, I know you are going to rip me apart, but I thought somebody ought to at least point out that even the not-so-good can do pretty okay things sometimes. Have a nice day, anyway.

[Miss Maryland]

but i thought american bashing was a constant conversation topic among sinners?

[hr]"America started out trying to be like Greece, but it ended up more like Rome."

-Gore Vidal


http://www.angelfire.com/poetry/colescott

[larkvi]

Well, I know you are going to rip me apart,

With good reason, too.

You seem to be suffering from the misapprehension that sinner message boards are a place for reasonable and intelligent decisions. I must inform you that, in this, you are sadly mistaken. Next time, try to be more insulting and/or boorish. Otherwise, I am afraid, we will have no option but to see you banned for not following proper board procedure

Anyways, please remember that this is the American-bashing board. Cogent opinions from Americans are not appreciated--you might actually challenge unfair stereotypes of Americans for our dear readers, and we wouldn't want that now, would we?

Try again, and act dumb...

[James Baster]

[s]Greebo wrote on 23:33, 6th Aug 2003:
Rennie, I think when Dan says supporting the troops, he means acknowledging the fact that they're risking their lives, regardless of whether or not you, or they, agree with the cause.

You can support the troops and not support their actions.

Unfortunetly, the Political spin doctors have turned this into a black & white situation where either your a flag waving patriot, or your a scum ball who wants nice Mr. Jones from down the street to die a horrible gory death. In the eyes of most people, there is no middle ground. Its amazing how many times poloticians reduce situations to Black and white for there own gains, and its annoying how often it works.

Dan, you odviusly know far more about this topic than me so I'm not going to argue with you. Maybe its just my revolt at a country which is so capatalist, but I got the impression from my summers in America that both the government and some of the people don't give a rats arse. And I stand by my gun thing. You need gun control. Its a ludicrus situation, and to my mind sums up whats wrong with american mentatility nicely.

Now I've spent so long slagging everything off, heres my solution :- I would take a leaf from the Australians and make everybody vote. You vote is still private; you can just go to the booth and spoil the paper but if you don't turn up, your fined. And this does work in making people there more polotically aware. I said before Democray doesnt work; I've had friend here complain things like the students representation doesnt work, but the reason it doesnt work is because we dont make it. If everyone got involved and voted in an informed manner, it would.

Oh, I would also want to remove the influence of buisness from politics; not only cap the level of donations but ban all polotitions from buisness ties. But at this stage, I have to say "Get Real, Thats Never Going To Happen In America" but I'm optomistic; it might happen here.

[Al]

It appears that you don't have to act dumb.

Using Rule 23b of the United States Code for Action as a guide, I can safely say that criticising the actions of the American government IS NOT the same thing as bashing Americans.

[hr]"Rest is not idleness, and to lie sometimes on the grass on a summer day listening to the murmur of water, or watching the clouds float across the sky, is hardly a waste of time".

[medea]

I'll hold my hand up that I'm quite ill informed on most of the political stuff, but whilst I was in America with a friend in January, I saw a few things that really shocked me.

In Washington DC airport I saw a shop selling 'pro-America' merchandise. This highly serious shop was selling things like mugs and t-shirts with Bush's face on and numerous 'God Bless America' sticker & pens and such.

If this wasn't bad enough, what really got to me were the toilet rolls & dart boards (or equivalent) with Saddam Hussein & Bin Laden's face on them. Now if this isn't going to provoke someone to get some revenge then I have no idea what is. How politically insensitive and damn right stupid is this?

The person who was with me at the time is normally a very sensible & intelligent guy & even he was outraged at what was in the shop AT AN AIRPORT. I'm sure he'd agree with me on this one.

Surely, this is not the way forward. I'm still raging about it 6 months later.

[Guided By Vices]

I'm all in favour of having a go at the American government and even at some of the bizarre attitudes that a lot of Americans seem to have towards the world. But...

I think we British are deluding ourselves if we think that our government is any less complicit in recent military action and in American neo-colonialism than the Americans themselves. And whilst Americans might seem rather more jingoistic than the British, if anyone remembers the Falklands War then they'll realise that this attitude is not entirely alien to these shores either.

I'm happy to have a go at Americans but if we have any sense of 'collective responsibility' then I think we need to consider our own backyard first.

[dan greenberg]

First off, let me just express my thanks. I believe that the reason, or at least a primary reason, that St. Andrews accepts Americans at such a high rate is because we come from both a very powerful and a very controversial country. As such, the U.S. is expected to be in the news a lot. I think it is the hope of those in charge of St. Andrews that the Americans on campus will incite discussion when America makes a particularly controversial move. And it is through discussion that we become smarter, not just more adept at arguing, but we also forge new connections, and learn how to think in a constructive way. So thank you to all that have taken part in the discussion, let's have a good one. And humor helps, it takes down the tension. Thanks also to the jokers.

Al: you don't seem to be very good at this. To have a good discussion, we need good evidence to support a statement. For instance, I have no idea what to make of your statement, because I don't know where it came from. But let me take a stab. Perhaps you refer to the fact that George Washington owned slaves. Yes, he did. I admit it, it's true. For him, not every man was created equal. But no one in America owns slaves nowadays. There's the spirit of change in America, and the capability to have that change occur. I'll try to keep this theme constant and support it with evidence. And please, Al, take a page out of Rennie's book.

Melkor: right on, very apt. Big Bush presumably summed up in the Patriot Act, a form of ensuring freedom that actually takes it away. It's too bad. However, I'm counting on the 'spirit of change' to get rid of that.

Rennie: Thank you so much not just for your evidence but also your civility and lack of arrogance in the pursuit of discussion. The use of the word 'think' is notable. Thank you for not having the attitude of I'm right, everyone else is wrong.
You're right in all your accusations. America simply isn't a social welfare state as many nations in Europe are. I think, in my primitive attempts at psychology, that this goes along with the fostered view of an American as an independent. The state leaves one to work his way out of wherever he is. The state does provide for well for those who attempt to work their way out (or at least their kids). It's rough, but I think it's a cultural state.
Righto Rennie, I'm well off, it's how I can afford to attend St. Andrews, but I wasn't aware of a lack of experience in the real world. Rather, my family's wealth has allowed me to gain valuable experience in the 'real world.' I've grown up in Saudi Arabia since I was four. During the Gulf War, my family stayed and watched scuds fly over our roof. We took our Christmas photo in gas masks. After the OPM-Sang bombing, I watched my friends whose dads were in the military whisked away, some crying because they'd lost close friends in the bomb blasts. I've had the chance to go to India, and Oman, and other countries near where I live. And the poverty there is unheard of in the states, and if you think the way America treats its minorities is bad, you'd vomit when you saw how the Arabs treat Pakistani and Indian workers.
Really, the one of the parts of the real world I don't know very well is America. But most of the poor I've talked to in other countries want very much to go there, based on the stories of their cousins and siblings who've worked hard and done well there.
Also, Rennie, most Americans don't have two first names. I meant Americans supporting troops as an example of pride, hoping they come home safe, respecting their risk. Thank you Greebo.
I know my country's history. Thank you for airing it's dirty linen, that's important. Mostly, our government works for its constituents, which is to say, Americans. However, the American people deserve more charity than that. The forces sent to Yugoslavia to try and restore peace were largely a result of domestic pressure, Americans feeling bad for the rest of the world and so forth, and wanting to help out.
As to the four billion people who dislike America, they're not wrong, they have their reasons, as you have yours. I simply disagree. But hey, everyone's different. And 4 billion is less than half of the world's population, so America's score is something like a six by the St. Andrew's scale, right? and that's about enough to get a degree, I think. I'm a little confused with the whole system.
Keynes: economic mobility, right on. One has to work for a place, but it can take a long time. I think I'd like to call it the phenomenon of generational earning, or something like that. For instance, my great grandfather was a poor Polish immigrant. He fathered my grandfather, who due to my great grandfather's work was able to become an Exxon engineer, and provide for his children, among them my mother. My father's story is a bit more blunt. He was a farmboy from Arkansas, very poor. He went to West Point for the education, worked hard and got it, then served his time with the military flying in the Vietnam War. He then worked hard to provide for his kids, among them me. And I am very fortunate that the generations before me worked to place me where I am, and I admit that and recognize it. I must continue working to maintain and further that place. That's why I barely slept in high school (public school for those of you from the UK).
Anon.: I stand corrected, thank you. I'm afraid I left my class notes at home, and I get my hot spots confused. However, please don't use the word ninny, I have no idea what it means. It goes along with those other insults in Harry Potter that I can't make heads or tails of. For instance, what is a 'git'?
And I would have voted for McCain, but I was too young to vote. a pity.
Larkvi: Check out FIRM. It was started by an alum of my high school, and is working to promote independent networks to serve the people. Once again, hard work and the spirit of change gives hope in the attempt.
James: I have no idea what St. Andrews is like, I've never been there. Please though, feel free to dislike my country, even dislike my heritage. That's your opinion, you're entitled to it. But please don't nail me just because I'm American, I bruise easy. Hope we can talk, and then maybe you can either like or dislike me as a person.
Also, in terms of free health care. Democratic candidate Howard Dean has an interesting proposition (he's my vote). His plan provides free national health care. I harken back to the theme of the spirit of change. Perhaps he'll even win. But regardless, radical ideas have managed to seep into the mainstream in the past with popular support. Woodrow Wilson borrowed extensively from the Progressives. Change again.
And yes, I do believe that they should reprimand someone for hinting at a bomb. Not so severely, but they should. It lets Americans who aren't as confident and brave as you feel that they are safe. And that in turn thwarts the terrorists, who are trying to terrorize. The airports are simply trying to make sure the bastards don't win.
As to hating Johnny Foreigner, many Americans get Bush's evil ploy. We're on to slippery Willy, tricky Dicky, and so forth. There was a huge stink raised at my high school about Bush using the war on terror to try to win a second term and to mask his attempts (successful unfortunately) to sell the U.S. environment to big business.
Deej: cheers mate, best of luck.
Sorry it took so long to respond, but I work from 8 in the morning to 11 at night on my brother's house. Family's got to stick together. It's a measure of the importance of not only this topic, but of discussion to me, that I cut into valuable sleepy-weepy time. I'll feel it tomorrow. Once again, thanks all, please, continue to discuss.

dan
p.s. Rennie, sorry that your response was deleted, I'll take care with this one, it's my baby, a very fat baby.

[Life's Rich Pageant]

[s]Unregisted User dan greenberg wrote on 04:44, 7th Aug 2003:
As to the four billion people who dislike America, they're not wrong, they have their reasons, as you have yours. I simply disagree. But hey, everyone's different. And 4 billion is less than half of the world's population, so America's score is something like a six by the St. Andrew's scale, right? and that's about enough to get a degree, I think. I'm a little confused with the whole system.


Dan, you make a handsome defence. I would also probably give the US a six on the St Andrews scale for their foreign policy. Unfortunately this would not be enough to get a degree.

[Al]

"Al: you don't seem to be very good at this. To have a good discussion, we need good evidence to support a statement. For instance, I have no idea what to make of your statement, because I don't know where it came from. But let me take a stab. Perhaps you refer to the fact that George Washington owned slaves. Yes, he did. I admit it, it's true. For him, not every man was created equal. But no one in America owns slaves nowadays. There's the spirit of change in America, and the capability to have that change occur. I'll try to keep this theme constant and support it with evidence. And please, Al, take a page out of Rennie's book."

Who said anything about George Washington? I made the point, and I stick to it, that the USA was born in duplicity, cruelty, and the desire to conquer the weak. And I cannot see that much has changed.

[hr]"Rest is not idleness, and to lie sometimes on the grass on a summer day listening to the murmur of water, or watching the clouds float across the sky, is hardly a waste of time".

[James Baster]

[s]Unregisted User dan greenberg wrote on 04:44, 7th Aug 2003:
James: I have no idea what St. Andrews is like, I've never been there. Please though, feel free to dislike my country, even dislike my heritage. That's your opinion, you're entitled to it. But please don't nail me just because I'm American, I bruise easy. Hope we can talk, and then maybe you can either like or dislike me as a person.

You know, I never really set out to Nail you simply because your American. In fact, I never actually set out to nail you. I just happened to disagree with one small thing you said; among the lots of things you did say I do agree with.

And yes, I do believe that they should reprimand someone for hinting at a bomb. Not so severely, but they should. It lets Americans who aren't as confident and brave as you feel that they are safe. And that in turn thwarts the terrorists, who are trying to terrorize. The airports are simply trying to make sure the bastards don't win.

Oh wait, something else I disagree with. You think they should reprimand someone for hinting about a bomb. Lesson for you: This is a hint that there is a bomb in the bag. "There might be something that goes BOOM in this bag! HeHe!" This is a note of political outrage. "[Expletive] you. Stay the [expletive] out of my bag you [expletive] sucker. Have you found a [expletive] bomb yet? No, just clothes. Am I right? Yea, so [expletive] you." See the difference?

Do you really belive that these security measures should be done just to make people feel safer? I was almost once in a bar fight, scared me shitless. Can you go around and arrest everyone who makes a joke about bar fights? I'd feel a lot safer, Thanks.

And how can you belive the whole terrorism scare is a political ploy yet support these stupid security measures? Can't you see the contradiction?

And I am not a confident or brave person. I get scared walking in dodgy areas in cities, just the same as everyone else. I just have a sense of porportion about this, thats all. Again I say; if your going to get worked up and security alert about something, pick a real threat that actually has a decent chance of getting you.

And on the don't let the bastards win front: I fully agree. I was surronded by University students in Boston on Sep 11th; I'm will never make light of that painfull experince. However, I think that when we live in a police state with our civil libertys being steadily erroded I think the terrorists arent doing to badly, myself.

[s]p.s. and thanks for taking the time to join in this argument; its good to have your views[/s]

[Pussycat]

[s]Unregisted User dan greenberg wrote on 04:44, 7th Aug 2003:As to the four billion people who dislike America, they're not wrong, they have their reasons, as you have yours. I simply disagree. But hey, everyone's different. And 4 billion is less than half of the world's population, so America's score is something like a six by the St. Andrew's scale, right?

Sorry to be pedantic but the world population currently stands at slightly under 6.5 billion. Not so good then.

[Anon.]

[s]Unregisted User dan greenberg wrote on 04:44, 7th Aug 2003:
However, please don't use the word ninny, I have no idea what it means. It goes along with those other insults in Harry Potter that I can't make heads or tails of. For instance, what is a 'git'?

Aren't they both fairly obvious from the context?

Anyway, if you don't know something, find it out, don't expect to be told.

[Rennie]

Greebo:

This is what I mean, when I said that comment about supporting the troops. I support the notion that I don't want them to die, and surely this should make me more anti war rather than less? Or am I just being stupid?

I mean, it's not like we have to worry anytime soon about Iraq's WMD's coming for us now they're all gone. Jeez, you sell a country chemical weapons, and then, when you decide you don't want them to have them, you nicely ask for them back and are told to piss off. Now that's not very polite, is it Saddam - so now we'll 'hunt you down'*1?

Dan:

Nice post. Everything I say, I say it because it's what i think is true. I don't want to force other people to believe me, but I try and put my case across logically, with reasoning so that the other person will see my point. It rarely works.

Deej:

I'm glad you're coming to St Andrews, and that you've been able to make it due to various loans and aid packages. I should have mentioned that in my original post that there are a lot of aid packages out there to be claimed (although, i think they're mostly private financed - meaning the Government didn't do anything about it)

But, my point i'm getting at is that you shouldn't have to work 3 jobs when you've got kids to look after. The state should provide for you, like in most of Europe, and help you in the early years at least. I don't think the US do this enough, and this causes massive social problems in the future, with kids being left alone and without parental guidance - not because they have bad parents but because the parent wasn't able to be around their child enough due to work commitments.

James:
You're spot on when you say that the voting should be like Australia's system. But, why change it when it's working? The system in the US/UK is terrible, but if no one is complaining enough then it will never be changed. The way we have it suits the Government perfectly - even if there is massive dissatisfaction they still are unlikely to be voted out - 1. because of voter apathy 2. because there isn't a difference between the main parties.

Let the bashing/informed rational debate continue.


*1 - The phrase 'hunt you down' actually means 'we'll let you live a luxurious life far away from anyone who would ever find out the truth, pretend to kill your sons and take all your country's wealth' It's just shorter to say 'hunt you down'.

[Rennie]

And Dan, Pussycat is right on her figures. So that puts the US on a 3 at St Andrews. Which is a poor fail.

[Keynes]

[s]Unregisted User dan greenberg wrote on 04:44, 7th Aug 2003:
And I would have voted for McCain, but I was too young to vote. a pity.
Also, in terms of free health care. Democratic candidate Howard Dean has an interesting proposition (he's my vote). His plan provides free national health care. I harken back to the theme of the spirit of change. Perhaps he'll even win. But regardless, radical ideas have managed to seep into the mainstream in the past with popular support. Woodrow Wilson borrowed extensively from the Progressives. Change again.
And yes, I do believe that they should reprimand someone for hinting at a bomb. Not so severely, but they should. It lets Americans who aren't as confident and brave as you feel that they are safe. And that in turn thwarts the terrorists, who are trying to terrorize. The airports are simply trying to make sure the bastards don't win.
As to hating Johnny Foreigner, many Americans get Bush's evil ploy. We're on to slippery Willy, tricky Dicky, and so forth. There was a huge stink raised at my high school about Bush using the war on terror to try to win a second term and to mask his attempts (successful unfortunately) to sell the U.S. environment to big business.
Deej: cheers mate, best of luck.
Sorry it took so long to respond, but I work from 8 in the morning to 11 at night on my brother's house. Family's got to stick together. It's a measure of the importance of not only this topic, but of discussion to me, that I cut into valuable sleepy-weepy time. I'll feel it tomorrow. Once again, thanks all, please, continue to discuss.

dan
p.s. Rennie, sorry that your response was deleted, I'll take care with this one, it's my baby, a very fat baby.


It's really a shame that McCain didn't win the Republican primary. I actually helped organize his campaign in Oklahoma, although as a registered Democrat, I couldn't vote in it... I would have voted for McCain in the general elections, however, had he won.

I actually got to see all the Democratic candidates except Kerry speak at CDA's Winter Conference in DC. Most Democrats do support universal healthcare now (Gephardt actually got the ball rolling on that issue).

Dean is really amazing, and very intelligent. He also speaks his mind, which, unfortunately, can hurt him politically. For example, he said publically that the US would not always have the strongest military, citing numerous historical examples as evidence. He's right, but of course, no one wants to hear statements like that. He is also really supportive of students.

I'm not sure if Dean is electable, but I am hopeful. Personally, I would like to Wesley Clark run for president. He's incredibly intelligent, and frankly, has the qualities a president ought to have.

Requiring everyone to vote a la Australia is an interesting idea, but I feel that it would be beneficial only after serious campaign finance reform.

You know Dan, you seem like you would be a very interesting person to talk to. I am very curious about embassy life [am considering a career in diplomacy], and also want to travel to India. I know quite a bit about India's culture, and also speak a small bit of Hindi. You also have good political taste.

I have, unfortunately, only been to England and France. However, I am planning to travel to many places in the world once in Europe--Greece for ceratin so far, and hopefully many other countries.

--Lindsay



[hr]

Challenge is pleasure.

[Guest]

Thanks James, an interesting post, and in my mind, spot on. Except I really don't know too much about the American situation, not having spent much time there, but from what I do know, you're absolutely right. But this change thing I'm talking about is still continuing, that's the glory of democracy, and why it can work. The advocacy group Democracy for All (or something along those lines) boasts a plan to provide public funding to candidates by taxing Americans six dollars a year. That doesn't forbid business from making "donations" or bluntly, bribes. But it does put more people over the advertising threshold.
And right on again, voter polls in the U.S. have been the lowest in years recently. Many people do not give a rat's arse. That's a problem, we need people who care in order to change. I wish we had more people like you who were actually American, then perhaps we'd get a good vote.
And we need gun control. But hopefully, with movies like 'Bowling for Columbine' by Michael Moore (and of course all the school shootings and handgun deaths), people will vote for it eventually.

Great solution, Americans do care dearly about money for the most part. I think it would work, extraordinarily bright. But I think to that I'd also like to find out why Americans aren't voting. I think it's more than just apathy, that actually the old boys in DC have spent so long in power, that some think they can't change the government or benefit from it anymore, and thus don't vote. That's the death knell of democracy, and the end of change when people won't make it happen. Thanks again James, you're extraordinarily bright and perceptive.

[Dan Greenberg]

sorry Pussycat, I have no idea where I got that figure from. I guess I was just trying to spin doctor it through and hope no one noticed. Though I guess I chose the wrong crowd, oh well, fool some of the people ... but hey, on the st. andrew's scale it seems no one, especially me, has any idea how they actually calculate the grades anyway.

Al, I still don't see where you're coming from, can you give me examples?

James, thanks again. All that talk about 'nailing' was just a lame joke on my part. I was talking about your first post where you said you wanted to nail your host's brother. sorry, i guess that joke was like beating a dead horse, it's not going to neigh or go anywhere. (an analogy I picked up somewhere in the country). I still stick by strict security measures, America needs to get more people back in the air. The U.S. is just so big landwise (and apparently, thanks to neo-colonialism, getting bigger all the time ) that if people are scared to fly, we're screwed. And yes, taking civil liberties away is the worst thing. I think Bush justified it by saying its stricter for a period of time to ensure more freedom later. Personally, I hate it. I have a cousin whose wife and kid were brutally murdered (the American psychosis), and under the Patriot Act he was held for a a year and a half without charges in maximum security in Colorado, allowed one book a week. That's not doing anything constructive aganist terrorism, rather, it's terrorising the populace. Now my cousin has a record even though he was never convicted, and is working construction where before he held a desk job. Well, time to get the wheels rolling on my brother's house, I can't believe I slept in this late, it's going to have to be a late night!

[Deej]

Oh, Rennie, sorry to seem misleading--I didn't mention that I only worked my jobs during my children's school hours. In fact, I did two of them in their school. So I was able to be a room mom while I worked and attended university.

There are social programs...maybe not as easily used as those in Europe, but there are all sorts of agencies to help one be on one's feet. I've not had to take out a single loan since I've been in uni because I've had more than $20000 in scholarships in the last 4 years. It's good to make good grades!

I understand what you are saying about government aid, but you know that comes with a price--when the government gives you something, you must also answer for it. I don't like too much government--I don't want to have to justify my accounts to a social worker every six months, and I don't want to have a government inspector in my home to see if I'm doing an okay job. So I tend to not want to take government aid, even if I'm eligible, unless it's a last resort. I'd much rather show my kids a good work ethic. It takes some creativity (for example, I have just traded a family portrait commission for a new air conditioner for my house--about $2000 usd). But it keeps me free from governmental influence.

I'm not romping on what you said, but there are an awful lot of us who find creative ways to provide for our families, even when we fall into the category of "below the poverty line". Life is too short to give up just because one is financially limited. If you want something bad enough, you can make it happen, and you can even do it all by yourself. Thanks for the comments though---because there are indeed people who live exactly as you said.
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Who was it who said to try to act dumb? Can't remember. I shall do my best! Wouldn't want to remove your reasons for bashing. Stomp away...