Marriage

[hmmm]

Does it mean anything these days?

[mossop]

[s]Unregisted User hmmm wrote on 00:37, 21st Aug 2003:
Does it mean anything these days?


Yes! Well, to me it does anyway, which is good, because I'm engaged and getting married in 2006! Just as well then....

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[Greebo]

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[Pussycat]

[s]Unregisted User hmmm wrote on 00:37, 21st Aug 2003:
Does it mean anything these days?

In general? With most people I don't think so.

[Sarah]

I was engaged to someone for four years, now I'm not. So in my experience engagement means nothing. My advice is, if someone asks to marry you, don't believe it till your walking back down the aisle. Even if you have a ring. I suppose I'm a bit cynical in my old (23) age BUT having said that, I would take marriage seriously, if I ever made it that far...

[Saki]

It means something to some people and not to others. There's no universal answer.

[Pussycat]

This is slightly detracting from the original question but I thought I'd mention it anyway. What I have noticed in my circle of friends and in my family is that those who hold strong their religious beliefs and are therefore against sex before marriage, and subseqently against living together before marriage, are much more pro-marriage.

That on its own is no bad thing. But, when it comes down to those people then wanting to get married after say 12-18 months together without actually living together are they going to find marriage as easy as a couple who have been previously living together? And are they going to think it through as much? Which leads to the question: does marriage therefore mean as much, or is it just (rather crudely I'm afraid) a means to an end?

Personally I think marriage without living together first is a bit of a bad idea. I'm pretty sure this thread has been done before mind you.

[Aureliano]

[s]Pussycat wrote on 12:34, 22nd Aug 2003:
What I have noticed in my circle of friends and in my family is that those who hold strong their religious beliefs...are much more pro-marriage.

Interesting. While I'm sure this stereotype holds true to some extent, I have recently in my life befriended many people from broken Christian families. Fine, this does not mean that their beliefs might not be strong at the beginning, but clearly suggests that these values alone are not enough to always make it last. I would argue tradition (esp. cultural) to be more of a deciding factor for personal convictions, with religion also playing an important role.


Which leads to the question: does marriage therefore mean as much, or is it just (rather crudely I'm afraid) a means to an end?
Personally I think marriage without living together first is a bit of a bad idea.

Agreed. Kind of
Very often the firmest relationships develop after a long history and/or previous friendship. Thus there might already be an almost complete sharing of one another's lives, without actually 'living together'.

This is not to say that a good marriage can't follow after only several months of acquaintance. Just that in the best scenario it is well thought-out and rational. And just what is perfection in marriage? We all have varying values and wants, thus no two marriages are the same.

Oh.. just had to plug some Anna Karenina in here:
"Happy families are all alike; every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way."

Impulses and a punch-drunk emotional state can be fun, but an underlying rational love is the way to go. From these few points it should be clear what my stand is: fairly optimistically pro-marriage, although with a realist grasp.

[Pussycat]

[s]Aureliano wrote on 13:34, 22nd Aug 2003:
While I'm sure this stereotype holds true to some extent, I have recently in my life befriended many people from broken Christian families.

It is probably because I am from a so-called broken Christian family that I am personaly totally against getting married without living together first. But of course many people from non-broken Christian families refuse to aknowledge that this could happen.

In my own experience, you can only truly know someone by sharing every part of their lives. When just dating you only see the best of that person - they look their best, and are on their best behaviour. When you live with someone you see all the grumpy times too and you see each other first thing in the morning - definitely not the most attractive look!

When it comes to relationships and the issue of marriage nowadays, I consider myself to be much more of an optimist for my own situation. However it worries me when I see people rushing into marriage in quite a naive fashion. I don't mean to sound condescending, it's just that when you live with someone you do "grow up" an awful lot regardless of your age.

[fluKe]

I agree completely. Apart from the not looking attractive first thing in the morning, my girlfriend looks great first thing in the morning

[Saki]

Actually, I think statistics show that couples who live together before they marry are more likely to divorce.

There are clearly other factors working here though: for example, religious couples are less likely to divorce however unhappy. But, I felt it was worth mentioning.

[stan]

[s]Pussycat wrote on 12:34, 22nd Aug 2003:
or is it just (rather crudely I'm afraid) a means to an end?

not anymore, they abolished the tax breaks for married couples so rather cynically there is no real point nowadays.

Personally I think marriage without living together first is a bit of a bad idea.


the phrase try before you buy springs to mind. for now, i agree with saki's first contribution to this thread.

[Pussycat]

[s]stan wrote on 14:51, 22nd Aug 2003:
[s]Pussycat wrote on 12:34, 22nd Aug 2003:[i]
or is it just (rather crudely I'm afraid) a means to an end?

not anymore, they abolished the tax breaks for married couples so rather cynically there is no real point nowadays.[/i]

Actually I meant the whole no sex before marriage thing.

[Deej]

Living together before getting married does not tell you what the person is all about. There's something about a marriage certificate--the finality of it--that changes a relationship. Having experienced this myself, and lived together with a couple of people besides my former husband, I can safely say it's not the best road. You can always get out if you are only living together, and so people tend to behave with more decorum. It's harder to get out of a marriage. The best of all worlds is to know the person so well that marriage is the best way to decorate what is already an incredible relationship. It's not the living together that teaches you that, but the willingness to continue going the extra mile after the relationship has become permanent (i.e. marriage). Often people, in their spousal familiarity, forget how important the little loving details are, like kind words and gestures. So often those things pass away. People take each other for granted...

[Neferet]

Many people see no point in marriage as they are already happy and complete together. I would be surprised if this happened to those who do not live together.

When you know you are with the right person, marriage often makes no difference, you do it because it's a nice thing to do, show the world your love etc.

It is not the be all and end all of a relationship.

[Guided By Vices]

Marriage clearly does still mean something, it's just that to many people it represents something rather different to what it used to. Many people in long-term relationships make a deliberate choice not to get married not because it wouldn't make any difference but because it would affect their lives in ways they do not desire. People are increasingly individualistic (not necessarily a bad thing) and even if they are in a long-term relationship then they often see the formality of marriage as an unnecessary constraint on their individual lives. Whilst marriage is no longer the only socially acceptable way to represent a long-term relationships or a family life to the world, its formality renders it a very meaningful boundary in terms of how the individual participants relate to one another.

In other words I agree with Deej.

[Neferet]

[s]Guided By Vices wrote on 20:39, 22nd Aug 2003:
Many people in long-term relationships make a deliberate choice not to get married not because it wouldn't make any difference but because it would affect their lives in ways they do not desire.

And many choose not to get married full stop. Not becasue it would change or affect their lives but because it wouldn't.

Marriage isn't something you have to do nowadays and for many it's unnecessary. It doesn't mean you are any less committed or more independent minded. It certainly does not trivialise the relationship.

It's more than likely that most long term relationships will end in marriage, because it is a nice thing to do. But in the meantime your relationship is no less meaningful or permanent.

Example: two students are in a loving and committed relationship. Later down the line no doubt they'l get married. They don't at the moment because there is no need, they are students and skint. They have no proper jobs or their own house yet. So they wait. Why should their relationship stand for less than if they were married?

It's not like when your married you suddenly start loving each other even more and it's certainly not like you then go "oh now we're having a proper relationship".

Argh. Marriage has nothing to do with it, it differs for different people on whether they stay committed, show their true selves etc. Labels change absolutely nothing.

[Guided By Vices]

Hmm, okay. I think some of your comments are actually in agreement with mine but maybe I should clarify. I'm not saying that if people get married that it automatically makes them more committed or more loving. I'm just saying that it has certain other important effects.

Marriage is not just a label. It is a formal and legal classification of a relationship. Even when the personal relationship ends the legal tie of marriage will continue until there is a divorce (at least in our society). No long term relationship is easy to walk away from but it will always be slightly easier to walk away from one that does not involve marriage. Being married might not make people feel any differently towards one another but the legal aspects are still significant and still make a difference to the relationship. Of course these days people have a choice but the reasons they either choose marriage or choose to remained unmarried (whilst inevitably different for different people) will always be based partly on the affect that the formality of marriage would have on their lives.

All I am saying is that a relationship becomes different (not better or worse, just different) when people get married because this still marks an important boundary between a relationship that is just between two people and a relationship that is formally recognised by society at large. Marriage gives the relationship a different meaning to society (e.g. in law) and even if this does not always affect what the relationship means to the two people involved it often will.

[Neferet]

In my experience with marriages in my family, the actual event of marriage has no effect on the actual marriage. Legal stuff changes, the name on your Christmas cards is different etc but the actual relationship does not change.

And often in serious long-term relationships the formality of the marriage isn't even a consideration. Why would it be if you are already at that level of committment and trust already? It doesn't matter.

Personally I don't see why long-term relationships are treated differently from marriages.

[Deej]

I don't know any flowery way to put it or how to even explain it...but that piece of paper and the connotations that go with it just change the relationship. I don't have any words to explain how; it just does. The depth of it becomes different. Perhaps it's like sealing something? Putting a mark on it that says it can never be someone else's?

What I am certain of is that it changes you forever. I have had serious long term relationships break up that cannot come close to the pain of the dissolution of my marriage. Because somehow, it was different.

The bond--I think that's the different part. I don't think of any past long term boyfriends any more. But not a day goes by that I do not think of my ex husband, and I don't even have any bitterness for him, and I don't love him. But he was a part of me that is no longer there, and I feel neutral about him as a person, but every day something happens or comes before me that reminds me of something about our life.

I have no other explanation. Marriage does something different to you.