[s]Miss Maryland wrote on 03:30, 31st Aug 2003:
I think the reason people have requested unregistered users to name themselves is so they can identify the person and realize what they did to hurt or upset said person.
Do you? I think it's so they can say "h'm, that's the blighter who spouted all that clique crap about us, grr". And so I can completely understand why people are wishing to remain anonymous.
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Re:
by benedict on Sun Aug 31, 2003 3:08 am
i think the unregistered users have made some pretty valid points.
again i hope that if The Sinner's image has been tainted that folk will look past that. if there's just a few Sinner users that put you off then don't let it put you off completely. if you don't like a comment then treat it with the contempt it deserves & ignore it. hopefully you'll be backed up if some folk start to gang up & marginalise you. & hopefully the spirit of The Sinner as an open forum for all students (& related folk) can be better preserved as a result.
[hr]watches should have a smiley face on them as it's always time to be happy
again i hope that if The Sinner's image has been tainted that folk will look past that. if there's just a few Sinner users that put you off then don't let it put you off completely. if you don't like a comment then treat it with the contempt it deserves & ignore it. hopefully you'll be backed up if some folk start to gang up & marginalise you. & hopefully the spirit of The Sinner as an open forum for all students (& related folk) can be better preserved as a result.
[hr]watches should have a smiley face on them as it's always time to be happy
-
benedict
Re:
by RaphX on Sun Aug 31, 2003 3:13 am
I haven't read this thread in extreme detail, and I don't intend on doing so. But here's how I see it.
A bunch of people who were friends from the same hall a couple of years ago also happened to post on the sinner as well. It got to the point where they would tell people that they were going to the union or wherever, and offered to whoever else felt like doing the same thing to come and meet up with them at some point.
It has gotten to the point where people know each other personally, talk to each other in #thesinner (UICN) on a regular basis, and on msn on a regular basis, and will meet up whenever they please, be it termtime or otherwise.
I'm very sorry if you consider this to be exclusive to anyone, but I don't believe this is the case. It's not about being a group which you have to gain the right to join.
It just so happens that some people who read these messageboards are closer to each other than others.
The people I hang out with are very nice people, and a large number of those people happen to post on these boards. In turn, a few of those are people I happened to meet as a result of us posting here, and meeting in the flesh as a result. If anyone else wishes to do the same, then go for it. If you choose not to meet others who post here, then go for that option - it makes no difference to those who do, because it doesn't mean you're "excluded" and cannot take part in whatever else happens in The Sinner.
To be honest, all this has been rather unpleasant. To both parties who have been "attacking" and "defending" - firstly it's one big party, which shouldn't be treated like a civil war.
Secondly, if you post in The Sinner, or any forum for that matter, the chances are you'll get made fun of, in a light-hearted manner. OK, people will come across as shallow in some respects, but that doesn't take away from the fact that the majority of people reading these boards are good people, and like to poke fun, however misguided. Hell, go ahead and call me a stupid ginger hoor if you like - it's all in good fun for people who get along. And if you don't like being made fun of like that, say so politely, and the good folks will respect that wish and back off.
Thirdly, for dealing with making posts on a thread of this nature, it doesn't help to use aggression, to shout (use caps), or to be sarcastic to the point of being snide. This applies to those who feel aggreived for whatever reason, equally does it apply to people who wish to respond to whatever it is they feel they have to respond to. "I'm sorry, but we'll have to agree to disagree" never did anyone any harm.
Finally, if you really want to know how nice someone is, talk to them personally, be it face-to-face, or over instant messenger. And if you don't have their contact, use this forum's email system to say that you'd like to offer to talk. That way, you can find out more about a person, and thereafter be able to decide a little better whether you will hang out with him/her a little more, or just remain a passing contact, to whom you can wave if you see them across the street, or realise if this person is simply not compatible with the type of person you are.
Thank you
- Chris
I have a face... it's on my profile, which needs updating
A bunch of people who were friends from the same hall a couple of years ago also happened to post on the sinner as well. It got to the point where they would tell people that they were going to the union or wherever, and offered to whoever else felt like doing the same thing to come and meet up with them at some point.
It has gotten to the point where people know each other personally, talk to each other in #thesinner (UICN) on a regular basis, and on msn on a regular basis, and will meet up whenever they please, be it termtime or otherwise.
I'm very sorry if you consider this to be exclusive to anyone, but I don't believe this is the case. It's not about being a group which you have to gain the right to join.
It just so happens that some people who read these messageboards are closer to each other than others.
The people I hang out with are very nice people, and a large number of those people happen to post on these boards. In turn, a few of those are people I happened to meet as a result of us posting here, and meeting in the flesh as a result. If anyone else wishes to do the same, then go for it. If you choose not to meet others who post here, then go for that option - it makes no difference to those who do, because it doesn't mean you're "excluded" and cannot take part in whatever else happens in The Sinner.
To be honest, all this has been rather unpleasant. To both parties who have been "attacking" and "defending" - firstly it's one big party, which shouldn't be treated like a civil war.
Secondly, if you post in The Sinner, or any forum for that matter, the chances are you'll get made fun of, in a light-hearted manner. OK, people will come across as shallow in some respects, but that doesn't take away from the fact that the majority of people reading these boards are good people, and like to poke fun, however misguided. Hell, go ahead and call me a stupid ginger hoor if you like - it's all in good fun for people who get along. And if you don't like being made fun of like that, say so politely, and the good folks will respect that wish and back off.
Thirdly, for dealing with making posts on a thread of this nature, it doesn't help to use aggression, to shout (use caps), or to be sarcastic to the point of being snide. This applies to those who feel aggreived for whatever reason, equally does it apply to people who wish to respond to whatever it is they feel they have to respond to. "I'm sorry, but we'll have to agree to disagree" never did anyone any harm.
Finally, if you really want to know how nice someone is, talk to them personally, be it face-to-face, or over instant messenger. And if you don't have their contact, use this forum's email system to say that you'd like to offer to talk. That way, you can find out more about a person, and thereafter be able to decide a little better whether you will hang out with him/her a little more, or just remain a passing contact, to whom you can wave if you see them across the street, or realise if this person is simply not compatible with the type of person you are.
Thank you
- Chris
I have a face... it's on my profile, which needs updating
-
RaphX
Re:
by Greebo on Sun Aug 31, 2003 3:47 am
WARNING: HORRIBLY LENGTHY
Ok lets start from the top and work our way down
To unregistered user nameless wonder #1 (PLEASE put some kind of name next to your post so I can reply to you each indivdually)
Like in the union, people have actually said, so thats what kinda people are on the sinner? not for me then.
What on earth is that meant to mean? We go out, we get drunk, we play air hockey, we socialise - in short, we do what any other students do.
Where's the problem?
To wonderboy (Thank you for using a name I can refer to)
Immediately defensive. no one is attacking anyone, they are pointing out something that is fairly obvious.
I've been put on the defensive by what's been posted, more so since oli posted the latest batch of approved posts. You keep saying it's obvious - I'm sorry but it's not obvious to me.
You seem to take control of anything that has sinner in the title. It's amusing of course but the joke has worn thin.
I control nothing that is in the sinner - I never use it's name [for events I organise] without permission, I never control the events. I do my best to help out when it's needed and I socialise with other users, if that's a crime then let's find a rope and tree.
Snobbery. Assumming that you are so right no one will answer your questions and that everyone else is in the wrong.
Nope, not snobbery. I didn't assume I am right - I said I had to question their motives for continuing to post claims without backing them up. Debate 101: If you make a point or an accusation against someone then you must be prepared to back it up with evidence, otherwise the point is nothing more than baseless opinion.
Actually they were. They were advertised on here fairly often and more importantly when out at night people go, oh thats that sinner bunch lets sit over here insted.
At best we might've said "Oh we're going out, if you feel like joining us, do so" - We have never ever forced anyone to join us, if people don't want to sit with us, they're entirely up to them.
I suppose your friends have been criticised here but not unjustly, reasons have been given and opinions backed up. You might disagree with them but that does not make them unjustified. And yet you still behave defensively.
So are you saying that if someone comes into the sinner and criticises my friends, and I happen to disagree (usually with good reason) then I cannot jump to their defense? Are you saying you wouldn't jump to the defense of one of your friends?
Yeah you do. Subtly you do. "you don't want to meet us, what do you have to hide" is the general feeling.
There is a difference between encouraging people to meet and saying the above. If we ever said the above, then it was never said seriously (at least not by me and, as far as I'm aware, not by my friends).
Everywhere, but if you think Im gonna trawl through last years threads you can think again.
See Debating 101 again.
Even just think of an example and tell me what the thread was about, chances are I might remember it and be able to find it.
No said you told people that. It is implied. Strongly.
Debating 101 again please.
Just read your post and the ones before it by your comrades. Its easy to see.
Yet not by me, point out please.
To Fingermouse
Now't to say - except a good post...though I'd be interested to hear your reply to the question(s) I pose at the end of this post.
To Cat
Just a general reply for you I'm afraid, not a line-by-line dissection.
You're another one who's said it's obvious - it's not obvious to me - please point it out.
And we have never claimed to be the physical embodiment of the sinner - the sinner consists of approx 600 odd users - how one earth could be claim to be a physical embodiment when we make up what? 4 or 5% of users?
See above for jumping to people's defenses.
To catch
Now't to say - is for ten, not me.
Ten goes too far on a more than regular basis - I (and others) recognise this and perhaps I let it slide more than I should since he was essentially my first friend when I came to university. I don't advocate it, so I won't defend it.
To unregistered user nameless wonder #2
I wouldnt reccommend the chatrrom to anyone, not from what ive heard.
Er...have you actually tried coming in to say hello? It might not be as bad as you've heard....you might actually find it fun!
And the only ones in the clique are ones who actually live in this country. thats how they all manage to meet up strangely enough.
....eh!?!? We all go to university in st andrews - so of course we meet up...that's kind of the point of the message board - it's a message board that's primarily for students in st andrews. It's the most common denominator between us. Fail to see your point here
Those in it refuse to admit it exists and as long as it remains so it will never be fixed. it wouldnt take much to think before you post but i guess its asking too much.
Think about what? As far as I'm aware I haven't changed my posting habits at all from prior to the meets to after the meets. I still defend my friends, I still post in what interests and applies to me.
Again - see the question(s) posed at the end of this post
To anonimous
http://www.thesinner.co.uk/messageboard-viewthread.php?thread=2545&page=4 this page and the next. An unregistered user God dammit posts a couple of times. Now they may not have been very polite, but their argument was objective. But the pack mentality in flaming him is ridiculous, well beyond what is needed.
Excuse me? Not only did they make points without backing them up (see debating 101), but they insulted me personally "And as for the flaming, he should expect that for being plain dumb." Friends defended - as I recall, others actually made his point in a better way (not sure it was that thread though).
Would be fine if it was a one off but isn't. To be honest you come across as extremely insulting most of the time and utterly self important. I think almost all the so-called snobbery in the group is down to you and you alone. You are not the sinner, nor are you famous or infamous or remotely evil. You are just rude.
As I said above - you're right to a degree - ten does overstep the mark on occasion. I do not advocate nor defend it.
Also, critising people who choose to remain anonimous is ridiculous. Had it occurred to you that some people do not wish to be a member of this site? Just as people do not want to engage in sinner things outside of the forum, some remain to stay still further in the shadows. this is a message board, people shouldn't feel like they have to have a persona for their opinions to be listened to. And this thread proves that that indeed is the case.
I think people may be mistaking what people are saying here - we have nothing against unregistered users. Some people (not me) do have something against people posting criticism without putting some kind of a name to it though - the only thing I will say is that putting a name to it makes it a helluva lot easier to reply to people, rather than endless nameless wonders.
Especially in the union. And when I say others I'm talking about a lot of people. It has gotten to the stage where it is almost embarrasing to admit that you post on the sinner.
I'll just copy what I posted above:
What on earth is that meant to mean? We go out, we get drunk, we play air hockey, we socialise - in short, we do what any other students do.
Where's the problem?
Ok, Now to Everyone who's saying there is a clique
Many have criticised, few have offered a solution.
What would you have us do differently?
Not meet/ Not meet in the union? Not gonna happen - we're friends and we have have every right to be in the union at the same time as anyone else.
Not defend our friends? Again not gonna happen - defending friends is what friends do.
Stop encouraging meets? Suppose I can do that - but why? I like meeting new people.
Not recognise each other when posting? Nope, that's going to happen no matter how hard we try not to. In jokes are in jokes - people who are in, get them, people who don't, don't. Happens everywhere, not just here.
So what to do?
Edit: Oh and I'll be away tomorrow through to monday afternoon or thereabouts so don't expect any responses from me (unless I commandeer (nautical term) amanda's computer)
[hr]http://greebopichost.netfirms.com - Loadsa drunken photos and suchlikes.
Ok lets start from the top and work our way down
To unregistered user nameless wonder #1 (PLEASE put some kind of name next to your post so I can reply to you each indivdually)
Like in the union, people have actually said, so thats what kinda people are on the sinner? not for me then.
What on earth is that meant to mean? We go out, we get drunk, we play air hockey, we socialise - in short, we do what any other students do.
Where's the problem?
To wonderboy (Thank you for using a name I can refer to)
Immediately defensive. no one is attacking anyone, they are pointing out something that is fairly obvious.
I've been put on the defensive by what's been posted, more so since oli posted the latest batch of approved posts. You keep saying it's obvious - I'm sorry but it's not obvious to me.
You seem to take control of anything that has sinner in the title. It's amusing of course but the joke has worn thin.
I control nothing that is in the sinner - I never use it's name [for events I organise] without permission, I never control the events. I do my best to help out when it's needed and I socialise with other users, if that's a crime then let's find a rope and tree.
Snobbery. Assumming that you are so right no one will answer your questions and that everyone else is in the wrong.
Nope, not snobbery. I didn't assume I am right - I said I had to question their motives for continuing to post claims without backing them up. Debate 101: If you make a point or an accusation against someone then you must be prepared to back it up with evidence, otherwise the point is nothing more than baseless opinion.
Actually they were. They were advertised on here fairly often and more importantly when out at night people go, oh thats that sinner bunch lets sit over here insted.
At best we might've said "Oh we're going out, if you feel like joining us, do so" - We have never ever forced anyone to join us, if people don't want to sit with us, they're entirely up to them.
I suppose your friends have been criticised here but not unjustly, reasons have been given and opinions backed up. You might disagree with them but that does not make them unjustified. And yet you still behave defensively.
So are you saying that if someone comes into the sinner and criticises my friends, and I happen to disagree (usually with good reason) then I cannot jump to their defense? Are you saying you wouldn't jump to the defense of one of your friends?
Yeah you do. Subtly you do. "you don't want to meet us, what do you have to hide" is the general feeling.
There is a difference between encouraging people to meet and saying the above. If we ever said the above, then it was never said seriously (at least not by me and, as far as I'm aware, not by my friends).
Everywhere, but if you think Im gonna trawl through last years threads you can think again.
See Debating 101 again.
Even just think of an example and tell me what the thread was about, chances are I might remember it and be able to find it.
No said you told people that. It is implied. Strongly.
Debating 101 again please.
Just read your post and the ones before it by your comrades. Its easy to see.
Yet not by me, point out please.
To Fingermouse
Now't to say - except a good post...though I'd be interested to hear your reply to the question(s) I pose at the end of this post.
To Cat
Just a general reply for you I'm afraid, not a line-by-line dissection.
You're another one who's said it's obvious - it's not obvious to me - please point it out.
And we have never claimed to be the physical embodiment of the sinner - the sinner consists of approx 600 odd users - how one earth could be claim to be a physical embodiment when we make up what? 4 or 5% of users?
See above for jumping to people's defenses.
To catch
Now't to say - is for ten, not me.
Ten goes too far on a more than regular basis - I (and others) recognise this and perhaps I let it slide more than I should since he was essentially my first friend when I came to university. I don't advocate it, so I won't defend it.
To unregistered user nameless wonder #2
I wouldnt reccommend the chatrrom to anyone, not from what ive heard.
Er...have you actually tried coming in to say hello? It might not be as bad as you've heard....you might actually find it fun!
And the only ones in the clique are ones who actually live in this country. thats how they all manage to meet up strangely enough.
....eh!?!? We all go to university in st andrews - so of course we meet up...that's kind of the point of the message board - it's a message board that's primarily for students in st andrews. It's the most common denominator between us. Fail to see your point here
Those in it refuse to admit it exists and as long as it remains so it will never be fixed. it wouldnt take much to think before you post but i guess its asking too much.
Think about what? As far as I'm aware I haven't changed my posting habits at all from prior to the meets to after the meets. I still defend my friends, I still post in what interests and applies to me.
Again - see the question(s) posed at the end of this post
To anonimous
http://www.thesinner.co.uk/messageboard-viewthread.php?thread=2545&page=4 this page and the next. An unregistered user God dammit posts a couple of times. Now they may not have been very polite, but their argument was objective. But the pack mentality in flaming him is ridiculous, well beyond what is needed.
Excuse me? Not only did they make points without backing them up (see debating 101), but they insulted me personally "And as for the flaming, he should expect that for being plain dumb." Friends defended - as I recall, others actually made his point in a better way (not sure it was that thread though).
Would be fine if it was a one off but isn't. To be honest you come across as extremely insulting most of the time and utterly self important. I think almost all the so-called snobbery in the group is down to you and you alone. You are not the sinner, nor are you famous or infamous or remotely evil. You are just rude.
As I said above - you're right to a degree - ten does overstep the mark on occasion. I do not advocate nor defend it.
Also, critising people who choose to remain anonimous is ridiculous. Had it occurred to you that some people do not wish to be a member of this site? Just as people do not want to engage in sinner things outside of the forum, some remain to stay still further in the shadows. this is a message board, people shouldn't feel like they have to have a persona for their opinions to be listened to. And this thread proves that that indeed is the case.
I think people may be mistaking what people are saying here - we have nothing against unregistered users. Some people (not me) do have something against people posting criticism without putting some kind of a name to it though - the only thing I will say is that putting a name to it makes it a helluva lot easier to reply to people, rather than endless nameless wonders.
Especially in the union. And when I say others I'm talking about a lot of people. It has gotten to the stage where it is almost embarrasing to admit that you post on the sinner.
I'll just copy what I posted above:
What on earth is that meant to mean? We go out, we get drunk, we play air hockey, we socialise - in short, we do what any other students do.
Where's the problem?
Ok, Now to Everyone who's saying there is a clique
Many have criticised, few have offered a solution.
What would you have us do differently?
Not meet/ Not meet in the union? Not gonna happen - we're friends and we have have every right to be in the union at the same time as anyone else.
Not defend our friends? Again not gonna happen - defending friends is what friends do.
Stop encouraging meets? Suppose I can do that - but why? I like meeting new people.
Not recognise each other when posting? Nope, that's going to happen no matter how hard we try not to. In jokes are in jokes - people who are in, get them, people who don't, don't. Happens everywhere, not just here.
So what to do?
Edit: Oh and I'll be away tomorrow through to monday afternoon or thereabouts so don't expect any responses from me (unless I commandeer (nautical term) amanda's computer)
[hr]http://greebopichost.netfirms.com - Loadsa drunken photos and suchlikes.
-
Greebo
- Posts: 1139
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
Re:
by benedict on Sun Aug 31, 2003 4:11 am
i think there may have been a few occaisions where there was a 'Sinner meet up' thing mentionned (i think?). but these weren't meant to do the harm they have maybe done. it was quite innocent & i'm certain was genuinely a quite open invitation to join a group of Sinner users in the Union & such. if it came across as elitist (or similar) then there's been a misunderstanding (not aportioning blame to any particular side). i can quite see why folk may have seen such a get together as such.
using The Sinner's name seemed like a good idea at the time as a way of attracting some folk but the good intentions over time may have developed negative connotations for some. i think quite a few folk have regarded The Sinner as a good way to bring folk closer together & some of those meetings were for that purpose to some extent.
[hr]watches should have a smiley face on them as it's always time to be happy
using The Sinner's name seemed like a good idea at the time as a way of attracting some folk but the good intentions over time may have developed negative connotations for some. i think quite a few folk have regarded The Sinner as a good way to bring folk closer together & some of those meetings were for that purpose to some extent.
[hr]watches should have a smiley face on them as it's always time to be happy
-
benedict
Re:
by FingerMouse on Sun Aug 31, 2003 12:17 pm
[s]Greebo wrote on 04:47, 31st Aug 2003:
To Fingermouse
Now't to say - except a good post...though I'd be interested to hear your reply to the question(s) I pose at the end of this post.
Actually, I've nothing to say about this bit of your post, Greebo, I just liked it and wanted it to appear again :7D
Ok, Now to Everyone who's saying there is a clique
Many have criticised, few have offered a solution.
What would you have us do differently?
Not meet/ Not meet in the union? Not gonna happen - we're friends and we have have every right to be in the union at the same time as anyone else.
Not defend our friends? Again not gonna happen - defending friends is what friends do.
Stop encouraging meets? Suppose I can do that - but why? I like meeting new people.
Not recognise each other when posting? Nope, that's going to happen no matter how hard we try not to. In jokes are in jokes - people who are in, get them, people who don't, don't. Happens everywhere, not just here.
Well, personally, I (in my various guises) have always viewed the sinner as a forum in which I could express and explore my own and other's opinions. About what, I don't mind, I just enjoy the kind of in-depth, thought out discussion that these kind of forums (should) encourage. Whether this be through my own social inadequaces/laziness in not expressing these opinions well verbally to people I do know IRL or whether I just like picking fights and don't want to do so with my actual friends isn't really relevant.
Mostly I do actually like having these kind of discussions with people I specifically don't know because it's easier to find a wider range of views of a subject that way. Either way, I have never viewed the Sinner as a way to meet people IRL, much as I've come to enjoy sparring, and sometimes agreeing, with some of the regulars, actually getting to know you would defeat much of the object of using the site for me.
Anyway, that's my own personal bias in approaching the Sinner, and probably goes a long way to explaining way I was slightly put off by the new atmosphere that the 'Sinner Dinners' era brought about. However, as you've phrased your questions (not that they're badly phrased, they seem to cover the issues fine) it does seem like it's not something that is going to be solved easily. As I said in my last post, people complaining about regular posters ganging up on them when they're attacking the site itself is always going to happen because regular posters, obviously, like the site. People who come along saying that x or y prepackaged messageboard code is better than the Sinner code, it may be the glib answer but it's also the sensible one to say that they should go use x or y based boards.
And with regard to cutting through the air of familiarity for non-members of the inner circle (I was trying to make that look like an omninous moniker (ooh, say that out loud, it sounds very cool), wonder if it'll catch on?), then I don't see any sure fire way of doing it without you guys being constantly and totally vigillante each time you post for anything that might be a bit to pally (which we all know isn't going to happen).
The only thing I can say, and it's a small point, but on threads discussing universal topics (ie not ones about the events of the last time you all got together, that's between you anyway) watch out for references along the lines of "I know of thing x having happened, person y know what I'm talking about ;7)" . I have spotted that kind of thing occasionally around the site and it really locks things up for everyone who isn't person y, if you see what I mean.
Hmmm, I just took a very long time to reach an "I don't know" conclusion. Clearly, everyone interested in using the Sinner should be made to choose between knowing anyone else in St Andrews in person or being allowed to use the message boards.
[s]I really shouldn't have put that should I? I give it about an hour before someone takes me seriously and jumps on that particular band wagon.[/s]
To Fingermouse
Now't to say - except a good post...though I'd be interested to hear your reply to the question(s) I pose at the end of this post.
Actually, I've nothing to say about this bit of your post, Greebo, I just liked it and wanted it to appear again :7D
Ok, Now to Everyone who's saying there is a clique
Many have criticised, few have offered a solution.
What would you have us do differently?
Not meet/ Not meet in the union? Not gonna happen - we're friends and we have have every right to be in the union at the same time as anyone else.
Not defend our friends? Again not gonna happen - defending friends is what friends do.
Stop encouraging meets? Suppose I can do that - but why? I like meeting new people.
Not recognise each other when posting? Nope, that's going to happen no matter how hard we try not to. In jokes are in jokes - people who are in, get them, people who don't, don't. Happens everywhere, not just here.
Well, personally, I (in my various guises) have always viewed the sinner as a forum in which I could express and explore my own and other's opinions. About what, I don't mind, I just enjoy the kind of in-depth, thought out discussion that these kind of forums (should) encourage. Whether this be through my own social inadequaces/laziness in not expressing these opinions well verbally to people I do know IRL or whether I just like picking fights and don't want to do so with my actual friends isn't really relevant.
Mostly I do actually like having these kind of discussions with people I specifically don't know because it's easier to find a wider range of views of a subject that way. Either way, I have never viewed the Sinner as a way to meet people IRL, much as I've come to enjoy sparring, and sometimes agreeing, with some of the regulars, actually getting to know you would defeat much of the object of using the site for me.
Anyway, that's my own personal bias in approaching the Sinner, and probably goes a long way to explaining way I was slightly put off by the new atmosphere that the 'Sinner Dinners' era brought about. However, as you've phrased your questions (not that they're badly phrased, they seem to cover the issues fine) it does seem like it's not something that is going to be solved easily. As I said in my last post, people complaining about regular posters ganging up on them when they're attacking the site itself is always going to happen because regular posters, obviously, like the site. People who come along saying that x or y prepackaged messageboard code is better than the Sinner code, it may be the glib answer but it's also the sensible one to say that they should go use x or y based boards.
And with regard to cutting through the air of familiarity for non-members of the inner circle (I was trying to make that look like an omninous moniker (ooh, say that out loud, it sounds very cool), wonder if it'll catch on?), then I don't see any sure fire way of doing it without you guys being constantly and totally vigillante each time you post for anything that might be a bit to pally (which we all know isn't going to happen).
The only thing I can say, and it's a small point, but on threads discussing universal topics (ie not ones about the events of the last time you all got together, that's between you anyway) watch out for references along the lines of "I know of thing x having happened, person y know what I'm talking about ;7)" . I have spotted that kind of thing occasionally around the site and it really locks things up for everyone who isn't person y, if you see what I mean.
Hmmm, I just took a very long time to reach an "I don't know" conclusion. Clearly, everyone interested in using the Sinner should be made to choose between knowing anyone else in St Andrews in person or being allowed to use the message boards.
[s]I really shouldn't have put that should I? I give it about an hour before someone takes me seriously and jumps on that particular band wagon.[/s]
-
FingerMouse
Re:
by Deej on Sun Aug 31, 2003 1:28 pm
I am beginning to think this thread is running thin. It shouldn't matter one bit if people want to meet. It's not like those who prefer to keep it impersonal have to go. If a person can't handle flaming or even an attack, they ought to go elsewhere. I'm definitely not in the clique, inner circle, or any other sort of nuturing body of sinners; I'm still stuck in the states. But the sinners have welcomed me and been very kind. I couldn't meet up with them if I wanted to.
Chris, your post was well spoken.
I think the sinner definitely does what it's supposed to do. It helped me make the decision to come to St. Andrews and has answered a ton of questions--and I've not had to even ask them. Somebody else always does. It's also led me to believe that the people who are on this forum are good hearted people, even when they are blasting Americans. I don't get this feeling that once I get there and actually do attend an event that the sinners might be at, I will get spit on. Although I may good naturedly give a couple of people a hard time about posts.
It's great that you all can have debates like this one, even though it's sort of unpleasant. But please do not allow this particular debate to stop postings by anybody, whomever they might be. Those who are upset over the exclusiveness they perceive, please do your best to see past your perception. There are too many positives going on here to allow what is actually a pretty small issue put you off. Continue to post. Keep not only an open mind, but be willing to have your thoughts challenged, and maybe even stomped. It's just not that big a deal. It's not real life. No one is going to punch you in the face when you walk outside.
For those in the perceived group, simply keep in mind that some people see you as representative, and behave with enough decorum to leave you with a clear conscience should you meet them one day.
In general, anybody posting on the sinner should be prepared to debate, and they should have somewhat broad shoulders. Any public forum is an open line to meanies. The world is not a candy coated place. Sometimes I post unpopular ideas and run the risk of being told so. And sometimes it's in a really mean way. If I really get flamed, I tend to just not post on that thread again, as I know it's a moot point. I'm not going to change anybody's opinion. After a while, they ALL die. And then it's moot anyway.
Don't take your toys and go away. Just play nice.
Chris, your post was well spoken.
I think the sinner definitely does what it's supposed to do. It helped me make the decision to come to St. Andrews and has answered a ton of questions--and I've not had to even ask them. Somebody else always does. It's also led me to believe that the people who are on this forum are good hearted people, even when they are blasting Americans. I don't get this feeling that once I get there and actually do attend an event that the sinners might be at, I will get spit on. Although I may good naturedly give a couple of people a hard time about posts.
It's great that you all can have debates like this one, even though it's sort of unpleasant. But please do not allow this particular debate to stop postings by anybody, whomever they might be. Those who are upset over the exclusiveness they perceive, please do your best to see past your perception. There are too many positives going on here to allow what is actually a pretty small issue put you off. Continue to post. Keep not only an open mind, but be willing to have your thoughts challenged, and maybe even stomped. It's just not that big a deal. It's not real life. No one is going to punch you in the face when you walk outside.
For those in the perceived group, simply keep in mind that some people see you as representative, and behave with enough decorum to leave you with a clear conscience should you meet them one day.
In general, anybody posting on the sinner should be prepared to debate, and they should have somewhat broad shoulders. Any public forum is an open line to meanies. The world is not a candy coated place. Sometimes I post unpopular ideas and run the risk of being told so. And sometimes it's in a really mean way. If I really get flamed, I tend to just not post on that thread again, as I know it's a moot point. I'm not going to change anybody's opinion. After a while, they ALL die. And then it's moot anyway.
Don't take your toys and go away. Just play nice.
-
Deej
Re:
by Prophet Tenebrae on Sun Aug 31, 2003 2:13 pm
Indeed, the thread is running thin because it's probably got to the point where people will either all be sensible or agree to disagree.
As to those who took the time out to personally insult me - thanks for taking the time to do so, it really makes me feel more special. Not to mention that it makes your attack on the clique - or whatever you want to call it - seem to have an agenda.
The ironic thing as far as I'm concerned is that I am actually quite passive in the group and have been for some time. I'd also refute that I overstep the mark regularly, I just like to provoke controversy at times and that is hardly a rarity here at the Sinner and look, Paul didn't even defend it - isn't that another gaping hole in the "all-for-one" argument?
Anyhoo, just remember people who personally attack me - I love the attention. Hopefully that will put you off in future
As to those who took the time out to personally insult me - thanks for taking the time to do so, it really makes me feel more special. Not to mention that it makes your attack on the clique - or whatever you want to call it - seem to have an agenda.
The ironic thing as far as I'm concerned is that I am actually quite passive in the group and have been for some time. I'd also refute that I overstep the mark regularly, I just like to provoke controversy at times and that is hardly a rarity here at the Sinner and look, Paul didn't even defend it - isn't that another gaping hole in the "all-for-one" argument?
Anyhoo, just remember people who personally attack me - I love the attention. Hopefully that will put you off in future
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Prophet Tenebrae
Re:
by Miss Maryland on Sun Aug 31, 2003 9:02 pm
[s]Anon. wrote on 03:43, 31st Aug 2003:
[s]Miss Maryland wrote on 03:30, 31st Aug 2003:[i]
I think the reason people have requested unregistered users to name themselves is so they can identify the person and realize what they did to hurt or upset said person.
Do you? I think it's so they can say "h'm, that's the blighter who spouted all that clique crap about us, grr". And so I can completely understand why people are wishing to remain anonymous.
[/i]
i suppose you're right. but posting unregistered gives all the more reason to give the names of the users making people uncomfortable, as the posts are anonymous.
[hr]
"America started out trying to be like Greece, but it ended up more like Rome."
-Gore Vidal
http://www.angelfire.com/poetry/colescott
[s]Miss Maryland wrote on 03:30, 31st Aug 2003:[i]
I think the reason people have requested unregistered users to name themselves is so they can identify the person and realize what they did to hurt or upset said person.
Do you? I think it's so they can say "h'm, that's the blighter who spouted all that clique crap about us, grr". And so I can completely understand why people are wishing to remain anonymous.
[/i]
i suppose you're right. but posting unregistered gives all the more reason to give the names of the users making people uncomfortable, as the posts are anonymous.
[hr]
"America started out trying to be like Greece, but it ended up more like Rome."
-Gore Vidal
http://www.angelfire.com/poetry/colescott
...and there was much rejoicing.
-
Miss Maryland
- Posts: 367
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
Re:
by Pussycat on Sun Aug 31, 2003 10:48 pm
Deep breath...
*Pussycat sticks her foot in it*
This is a difficult one, and it feels like the thread is going round in circles.
I think some people have made some valid points but one word has been the stumbling block: clique. I don't think this is what people were meaning, and to be honest I'm not sure that they are implying the group is hostile.
Most registered users on here know at least one other Sinner, I know I do. But I think there is a difference between defensive posting and offensive defensive posting. Ok, that didn't make sense but what I mean is that when defending your friends you shouldn't just dismiss the other persons thoughts or even worse suggest the opinion is laughable.
All Sinners at one time or another are guilty of defensive posting, not just those in THAT group. It's not a bad thing per say but when done by many people at once, say for example on this thread, it can look like other opinions are simply being crowded out.
Some questions are being asked that have already been answered, or the answers, at least to me, are fairly obvious from reading through this thread. For example the question about sinners having to be in this country. Looking at the posts that came above the one that said this, it's clear that they mean people who are not yet here but already friends with Sinners. Unless I am mistaken, Miss Maryland has yet to get here?
Also I think those who keep asking for details and proof are being ignored for a reason. Most of the unreg people have not been impolite or aggressive. Pointing out specific instances where things have happened may not be desirable. Same with the questions regarding why you perhaps put people off the sinner? Answers would no doubt be of a more personal nature, and as has been pointed out, we should all strive to maintain a non negative atmosphere at the best of times.
People can make daft comments that are obviously not serious, eg "arts/science students are thick". But when it's more subtle, or particularly when it is someone not taking anothe seriously, it can create a bad atmosphere.
Couple of other points:
[s]Miss Maryland wrote on 03:30, 31st Aug 2003:
Can you honestly say that neither you nor your friends has ever given someone the cold shoulder, humiliated them, or made them feel unwelcome? I like to think of myself as a kind person but still I can admit to having acted this way. If your answer is no, you need to look at yourself and your friends more closely.
Actually I can say that I have never acted in this way. I make friends with people I like, and don't with those I do not like. Sure I have drifted apart from people but it has never been unpleasant. Yet I don't think I need to look at myself or friends more closely. I have my old friends from school, my other friends from Uni, and my best friend. Perhaps because I am quite a distrustful person I have avoided these problems but I am curious to know whether the majority of people are guilty of behaving like that?
And finally:
[s]Neferet wrote on 16:13, 30th Aug 2003:
Now I have nothing against hall committees, they try to help, to be there for people, to be friendly.
But you can't deny that they can [i]really piss people off with the attitude that manages to come across.[/i]
A nice non-hostile analogy. As the first part shows no one is blasting you as people, merely saying that an attitude does manage to come across. Now I highly doubt that a hall committee sits around concocting ways of annoying people, but really, can anyone say they have never been pissed off by a hall committee?
*Pussycat unsticks her foot*
Please don't eat me
*Pussycat sticks her foot in it*
This is a difficult one, and it feels like the thread is going round in circles.
I think some people have made some valid points but one word has been the stumbling block: clique. I don't think this is what people were meaning, and to be honest I'm not sure that they are implying the group is hostile.
Most registered users on here know at least one other Sinner, I know I do. But I think there is a difference between defensive posting and offensive defensive posting. Ok, that didn't make sense but what I mean is that when defending your friends you shouldn't just dismiss the other persons thoughts or even worse suggest the opinion is laughable.
All Sinners at one time or another are guilty of defensive posting, not just those in THAT group. It's not a bad thing per say but when done by many people at once, say for example on this thread, it can look like other opinions are simply being crowded out.
Some questions are being asked that have already been answered, or the answers, at least to me, are fairly obvious from reading through this thread. For example the question about sinners having to be in this country. Looking at the posts that came above the one that said this, it's clear that they mean people who are not yet here but already friends with Sinners. Unless I am mistaken, Miss Maryland has yet to get here?
Also I think those who keep asking for details and proof are being ignored for a reason. Most of the unreg people have not been impolite or aggressive. Pointing out specific instances where things have happened may not be desirable. Same with the questions regarding why you perhaps put people off the sinner? Answers would no doubt be of a more personal nature, and as has been pointed out, we should all strive to maintain a non negative atmosphere at the best of times.
People can make daft comments that are obviously not serious, eg "arts/science students are thick". But when it's more subtle, or particularly when it is someone not taking anothe seriously, it can create a bad atmosphere.
Couple of other points:
[s]Miss Maryland wrote on 03:30, 31st Aug 2003:
Can you honestly say that neither you nor your friends has ever given someone the cold shoulder, humiliated them, or made them feel unwelcome? I like to think of myself as a kind person but still I can admit to having acted this way. If your answer is no, you need to look at yourself and your friends more closely.
Actually I can say that I have never acted in this way. I make friends with people I like, and don't with those I do not like. Sure I have drifted apart from people but it has never been unpleasant. Yet I don't think I need to look at myself or friends more closely. I have my old friends from school, my other friends from Uni, and my best friend. Perhaps because I am quite a distrustful person I have avoided these problems but I am curious to know whether the majority of people are guilty of behaving like that?
And finally:
[s]Neferet wrote on 16:13, 30th Aug 2003:
Now I have nothing against hall committees, they try to help, to be there for people, to be friendly.
But you can't deny that they can [i]really piss people off with the attitude that manages to come across.[/i]
A nice non-hostile analogy. As the first part shows no one is blasting you as people, merely saying that an attitude does manage to come across. Now I highly doubt that a hall committee sits around concocting ways of annoying people, but really, can anyone say they have never been pissed off by a hall committee?
*Pussycat unsticks her foot*
Please don't eat me
-
Pussycat
- Posts: 994
- Joined: Thu Nov 28, 2002 8:36 pm
Re:
by Emmalina on Mon Sep 01, 2003 4:17 pm
umm, in an attempt to draw the conversation away from talk of cat-eating...
Oli has been nice enough to grant me a guest account, but I have been away and so have not yet had the pleasure of enjoying my change of account status. So here goes, my first registered post:
I have to admit, breaking into the Sinner community can be a bit intimidating at first. It’s not that everyone is clique-y, it’s just that it seems as if the prominent posters already have their established place in the World of the Sinner, leaving others on the edges till they can do something that attracts the notice of the “regulars,” wherein they may be pulled in or not. There have been times when I wished to post my opinion on something or another, but then I would get shy and decide that what I had to say possibly wouldn’t be of much worth to everyone and would therefore be ignored (which, I know, is bound to happen at some point as it is silly to think that everything you say will always be profound and interesting all the time).
Not everyone is bold and willing just to crash into an established group of friends and confidants, and on the Sinner, there is such a group of close friends (mind you, I’m not saying that that is a bad thing or should be discouraged). There will always be those who, instead of jumping right into the water without testing it first, prefer to inch in bit by bit, and perhaps that’s the best metaphor for those starting to post on the Sinner: some will just jump in and begin posting like mad, while others will test the water before getting in. So don’t bash unregistered users for being unregistered users, they could just be working up the courage to become more regular posters.
/end first registered post
[hr]Well if you are what you eat,
In my case I'll be sweet
So come and get some.
I'm so over it
- J. Mraz
Oli has been nice enough to grant me a guest account, but I have been away and so have not yet had the pleasure of enjoying my change of account status. So here goes, my first registered post:
I have to admit, breaking into the Sinner community can be a bit intimidating at first. It’s not that everyone is clique-y, it’s just that it seems as if the prominent posters already have their established place in the World of the Sinner, leaving others on the edges till they can do something that attracts the notice of the “regulars,” wherein they may be pulled in or not. There have been times when I wished to post my opinion on something or another, but then I would get shy and decide that what I had to say possibly wouldn’t be of much worth to everyone and would therefore be ignored (which, I know, is bound to happen at some point as it is silly to think that everything you say will always be profound and interesting all the time).
Not everyone is bold and willing just to crash into an established group of friends and confidants, and on the Sinner, there is such a group of close friends (mind you, I’m not saying that that is a bad thing or should be discouraged). There will always be those who, instead of jumping right into the water without testing it first, prefer to inch in bit by bit, and perhaps that’s the best metaphor for those starting to post on the Sinner: some will just jump in and begin posting like mad, while others will test the water before getting in. So don’t bash unregistered users for being unregistered users, they could just be working up the courage to become more regular posters.
/end first registered post
[hr]Well if you are what you eat,
In my case I'll be sweet
So come and get some.
I'm so over it
- J. Mraz
-
Emmalina
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
Re:
by benedict on Mon Sep 01, 2003 6:09 pm
sometimes it seems like you need to divide opinion with your 1st posts. that way some folk will disagree with you & then other folk will disagree with those folk who disagreed with you & hence agree with your original one.
chances are if you post something that gets ignored you've either put something pretty good that everyone's agreed with or you've posted something quite unique that no-one can add anything to.
i would say 'well done on your 1st post' but that would probably sound so patronising that i'd be best not to. yet another obstacle that can hold folk back from being noticably positive.
[hr]watches should have a smiley face on them as it's always time to be happy
chances are if you post something that gets ignored you've either put something pretty good that everyone's agreed with or you've posted something quite unique that no-one can add anything to.
i would say 'well done on your 1st post' but that would probably sound so patronising that i'd be best not to. yet another obstacle that can hold folk back from being noticably positive.
[hr]watches should have a smiley face on them as it's always time to be happy
-
benedict
Pronunciation
by JP Patches on Mon Sep 01, 2003 9:35 pm
Somewhere early on in the Great Sinner Clique Debate someone remarked that all registered users, save about two, had entered this thread, I was content to be one of that number as I thought both sides were flogging their respective dead horses quite well without me. Then, checking back a couple days later to see how things were going, I felt like contributing my two cents to the pronunciation side-panel discussion.
Anon. was quite right in saying that, “[url]s words with a more immediate French ancestry than most, [clique and niche] are still pronounced in the French way, viz. cleek and neesh.” If that rule is to be enforced with any consistency, then shouldn’t the words herb and fillet also be pronounced the French way, rather than “pronouncing them from their spellings as if they were English words,” (the way I have heard them pronounced all throughout the UK)?
Of course, as made obvious through the other posts on this subject, the Americans apply the rule inconsistently too. The difference is that in one place you hear someone talking about “Bill-Bob, who has really found his nitch in the Dallas Fillay and Urb Society, although it does have a reputation for clickiness.” Whereas across the Atlantic, Nigel’s parents are relieved that he’s finally found his neesh in the Manchester Fillit and Hurb Society regardless of its reputation for being cleeky.
Apologies for exceptionally lame sample sentences.
Edited to improve that crazy italic formatting.
Anon. was quite right in saying that, “[url]s words with a more immediate French ancestry than most, [clique and niche] are still pronounced in the French way, viz. cleek and neesh.” If that rule is to be enforced with any consistency, then shouldn’t the words herb and fillet also be pronounced the French way, rather than “pronouncing them from their spellings as if they were English words,” (the way I have heard them pronounced all throughout the UK)?
Of course, as made obvious through the other posts on this subject, the Americans apply the rule inconsistently too. The difference is that in one place you hear someone talking about “Bill-Bob, who has really found his nitch in the Dallas Fillay and Urb Society, although it does have a reputation for clickiness.” Whereas across the Atlantic, Nigel’s parents are relieved that he’s finally found his neesh in the Manchester Fillit and Hurb Society regardless of its reputation for being cleeky.
Apologies for exceptionally lame sample sentences.
Edited to improve that crazy italic formatting.
-
JP Patches
- Posts: 93
- Joined: Fri May 23, 2003 4:50 pm
Re:
by Emmalina on Tue Sep 02, 2003 2:43 pm
[s]benedict wrote on 19:09, 1st Sep 2003:
i would say 'well done on your 1st post' but that would probably sound so patronising that i'd be best not to. yet another obstacle that can hold folk back from being noticably positive.
well, I'm sure that nothing you said was meant in a patronizing manner, so thank you, Benedict!
[hr]
Well if you are what you eat,
In my case I'll be sweet
So come and get some.
I'm so over it
- J. Mraz
i would say 'well done on your 1st post' but that would probably sound so patronising that i'd be best not to. yet another obstacle that can hold folk back from being noticably positive.
well, I'm sure that nothing you said was meant in a patronizing manner, so thank you, Benedict!
[hr]
Well if you are what you eat,
In my case I'll be sweet
So come and get some.
I'm so over it
- J. Mraz
-
Emmalina
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
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