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London riots

Postby jollytiddlywink on Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:42 pm

Normally this is the sort of thing to kick off with a link to a news story, but if you haven't heard about the rioting by now you're probably dead. Or American.

What do sinners think of it all?

I think that, at this point, four nights (and days) into this, it feels like the government have no control over the country, and aren't going to get their finger out any time soon. There's been plenty of outrage and disgust, a bit of thought as to the background causes, and surprisingly little thought about what now seems to be a case of the police opening fire first as the 'spark' which set things off.
And seeing former Bullingdon members lecturing TV cameras on the reckless behaviour of young people going out at night and destroying other people's property for fun... well, "delicious irony" doesn't quite cover it!
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Re: London riots

Postby munchingfoo on Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:01 am

Can we just set something straight that has irritated me all bloody day: the police almost always fire first. If you point a gun at anyone, or even just something that looks like a gun having claimed it to be one, then you should expect to be in a body bag in the following couple of seconds. You don't have to fire a shot to legitimise lethal force. If the police have to "return fire" they haven't done their job properly.

It's a non-story until the IPCC come back and say the illegal handgun found at the scene was planted.
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Re: London riots

Postby RedCelt69 on Wed Aug 10, 2011 1:34 am

munchingfoo wrote:If you point a gun at anyone, or even just something that looks like a gun having claimed it to be one, then you should expect to be in a body bag in the following couple of seconds.

Uhm... in a different country, sure. In the UK, where the police don't (routinely) carry firearms, you can't say that you should expect to be shot. That aside, if he did actually have a gun, then the police were fully justified in opening fire if they felt threatened. The media were making far too big a deal over the fact that the gun hadn't been fired. The firing/non-firing of a firearm is a seriously moot point. It doesn't need to be fired before you are deemed a justifiable target.

As for the bigger picture, I put it down to a lack of respect for authority. Whether "authority" deserves respect (at the moment) is a question worth asking.

The MPs fiddle their expenses, but harangue the citizens for their immorality. They dance to the media's wishes (for several decades) before eventually growing a spine in order to stand up to Murdoch. Likewise, the MET danced to News Corps' little tune (and took bribes). The country's figures of authority are lacking any semblance of deserving such a thing. While the whole government (more or less) were off on their holidays in sunny climes, the children acted up while their parents were away.

Outside of London (and the MET's control) it became a case of copycat thuggery, taking advantage of large numbers and the police's (apparent) inability to cope with such a situation.

I just wish that they'd stop labelling their screens with the words "UK RIOTS" because this is very much an England thing. If similar events had been limited to Glasgow, Edinburgh, Aberdeen and Dundee, it sure as hell wouldn't say "UK RIOTS".
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Re: London riots

Postby macgamer on Wed Aug 10, 2011 8:01 am

RedCelt69 wrote:As for the bigger picture, I put it down to a lack of respect for authority. Whether "authority" deserves respect (at the moment) is a question worth asking.


Absolutely it is about a lack of respect for authority, but also a lack of personal responsibility and awareness of consequences (for the most of them they'll get away with it).

These youths are the products of their unbringing and the poisonous environment in which they live, where there is no effective authority (read: absent fathers / inseminators), no inculcation of personal responsibility or consequences.

Intergenerational unemployment has denied these communities (which have none of the characteristics of cohesive communities - the Turks defending their shops have it) from the dignity, self and mutual respect and hope that comes with doing an honest day's labour and earning one's own keep rather than being 'kept' by the state.

The black Mayor of Philadelphia understood it when they had riots last year:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/aug/8/mayor-talks-tough-to-black-teens-after-flash-mobs/

'The Immaculate Conception of our Lord Jesus Christ took place a long time ago, and it didn’t happen here in Philadelphia. So every one of these kids has two parents who were around and participating at the time. They need to be around now.

'If you’re just hanging out out there, maybe you’re sending them a check or bringing some cash by. That’s not being a father. You’re just a human ATM. … And if you’re not providing the guidance and you’re not sending any money, you’re just a sperm donor.'
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Re: London riots

Postby Haunted on Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:09 pm

Genesis 19:4-8
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Re: London riots

Postby RedCelt69 on Wed Aug 10, 2011 1:16 pm

Penny Red wrote:As I write, the looting and arson attacks have spread to at least fifty different areas across the UK, including dozens in London, and communities are now turning on each other, with the Guardian reporting on rival gangs forming battle lines. It has become clear to the disenfranchised young people of Britain

Something good happens in England = "England"
Something bad happens in England = "UK" & "Britain"

Hold on to the good stuff and spread the shit.

TBH I lost interest in what she had to say when I noticed that she's a feminist. Bad thinkers do bad thinking.
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Re: London riots

Postby Hennessy on Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:32 pm

Driving around last night was very odd - girlfriend and I jumped in the car to go get a fatty take-out we both craved (I've given up smoking recently and she's on a diet) and the place was closed and barred - in fact as I drove around and around the drive-in area harrumphing my dismay I noticed I had driven into an area (Colliers Wood) where all the shop shutters were down and there was a distinct lack of the usual London hubbub. Currys looked like a fortress. Driving into Wimbledon saw about a dozen black youths sitting yakking into their mobile phones and obviously waiting for the sun to go down - they were the only ones in the Centre Court area on the Broadway - aside from a couple of WPCs alone about a half mile down the road after I had jammed on the gas and was slowing down.

Times like this one envies the Americans - I was totally ready to get all Assault on Precinct 13 in the undoubtedly inevitable event 30-40 young desperadoes tried to force themselves into my cosy affluent suburban part of London - got the air rifle out and laid a selection of devious traps Home-Alone style ready to catch the intruder. Alas nothing came of it. If I lived in the US I'd have been able to electrify the front garden and strap a minigun to the kitchen counter.

Even had a miniature Union Jack to clutch as I died singing "Men of Harlech" with a makeshift Assegai in my gut...natives these days are so disappointing :(
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Re: London riots

Postby RedCelt69 on Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:57 pm

Hennessy wrote:Currys looked like a fortress.

Should have got a kebab, instead.
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Re: London riots

Postby Hennessy on Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:57 pm

Haunted wrote:http://pennyred.blogspot.com/2011/08/panic-on-streets-of-london.html


In descending order of cringing awfulness.....

Violence is rarely mindless. The politics of a burning building, a smashed-in shop or a young man shot by police may be obscured even to those who lit the rags or fired the gun, but the politics are there

Already, the internet is teeming with racist vitriol and wild speculation

Riots are about power, and they are about catharsis.


Noone expected this.



Hell would be being stuck with that half-talented hyperbolic imp for a period of more than three seconds. She must have written that after one too many coffees by the number of sweeping paragraph openers. She lives in Islington anyway, virtually untouched by the violence thanks to its healthy white middle class population and safe distance from any large areas of deprivation (although London is one of those cities where the rich tend to rub shoulders with the poor).

I can't believe you'd read her Haunted - attention-seeking little scribbler ain't the half of it!
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Re: London riots

Postby macgamer on Thu Aug 11, 2011 8:17 am

Some interesting analysis here:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/10/uk-riots-liberal-right-parent

Tottenham MP David Lammy seems to have hit the nail on the head:
In areas like mine, we know that 59% of black Caribbean children are looked after by a lone parent. There is none of the basic starting presumption of two adults who want to start a family, raise children together, love them, nourish them and lead them to full independence. The parents are not married and the child has come, frankly, out of casual sex; the father isn't present, and isn't expected to be. There aren't the networks of extended families to make up for it. We are seeing huge consequences of the lack of male role models in young men's lives, there are virtually no male teachers in primary schools.


And a parent:
Responsibility has been taken away from parents. People here will call social services if they hear you disciplining your children. Children hear about Childline at school. It's all very well trying to be liberal, but parents need to be given back their right to parent.


If I think back to my childhood, if I misbehaved I was punished. If I was insolent, I was put in my place and shown, one way or another, who the authority figure was. I was not permitted to go out after dark (that is again after arrive home from school) until I was 16. These children roving around the streets have no reason to be out.

My parents' generation had more respect for figures of authority, not just teachers and their parents, but more generally their elders. My parents said that if they misbehaved at school and their parents heard or were informed, they were punished a second time at home. They parents would not take their part, but let them face the consequences at school. How times have changed.

You cannot have rights without responsibilities, else anarchy ensues, either in our homes, schools or now on our streets.
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Re: London riots

Postby jequirity on Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:48 am

Looks like it's kicking off in Edinburgh now:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EW0356br ... r_embedded
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Re: London riots

Postby Haunted on Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:05 pm

I enjoy another perspective. Anyone who thinks this was merely "bad people doing bad things" is being a bit too simplistic. Failed social policy has given rise to a generation who don't give two shits about the rule of law.

We should treat the cause, not just the symptoms.
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Re: London riots

Postby RedCelt69 on Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:46 pm

macgamer wrote:If I think back to my childhood, if I misbehaved I was punished. If I was insolent, I was put in my place and shown, one way or another, who the authority figure was. I was not permitted to go out after dark (that is again after arrive home from school) until I was 16. These children roving around the streets have no reason to be out.

I didn't have a parental curfew; I didn't need one. I stayed out until it was too dark to see the football (or, more truthfully, it was too dark to see the jumpers-as-goalposts). Then I'd cycle home, keeping to well-lit areas in case I encountered kids-who-had-worse-parents-than-me who would deprive me of my bicycle. Thuggery isn't a new invention. Nor is bad-parenting.

macgamer wrote:My parents' generation had more respect for figures of authority, not just teachers and their parents, but more generally their elders. My parents said that if they misbehaved at school and their parents heard or were informed, they were punished a second time at home. They parents would not take their part, but let them face the consequences at school. How times have changed.

Respect has to be earned. It can not (and should not) be a given, based on something as arbitrary as age. Much as "money is the root of all evil" is a badly-used rendition of "the love of money is the root of all evil", people trot out "respect your elders" when they should really be saying "respect your elders and betters". Logic fans will note the use of "and" rather than "or". If your elders aren't better, then respect is something that they need to better themselves to earn.

And today's figures of authority really haven't earned it. Not even your ultimate figures of authority, macgamer: the paedophile-protectorate, who want poor people to catch STDs through unprotected sex. I believe that some people refer to it as The Vatican.

Earn my respect and you might get some, beyotch! (I'm flakey with my street-talk)
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Re: London riots

Postby macgamer on Thu Aug 11, 2011 3:34 pm

Although it seems that the children of the bourgeoisie seem to have been getting in on the act, unsatisfied with the rioting taking place on UKUncut and student protests:

http://t.co/GNryJ2K

RedCelt69 wrote:paedophile-protectorate

*YAWN*

RedCelt69 wrote:"respect your elders and betters"

I agree with you on that, my parents are people whom I respect. There are no doubt many appalling parents who deserve a questionable level of respect. Although 'one's better', now that is very old fashioned and hardly in keeping with socialist class struggle surely?
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Re: London riots

Postby RedCelt69 on Thu Aug 11, 2011 4:24 pm

macgamer wrote:
RedCelt69 wrote:paedophile-protectorate

*YAWN*

Are you yawning at their actions, yawning at the suffering of all of those children... or just yawning at the fact that someone's mentioned it? If you pretend that bad things didn't happen, it doesn't mean that they didn't.

But anyway. Yes. Respect. It isn't an easy thing to attribute to any person (or body) in a world where everyone's ills are public knowledge and can't be swept under the carpet.

The rioters... who, exactly, should they respect?

macgamer wrote:Although 'one's better', now that is very old fashioned and hardly in keeping with socialist class struggle surely?

The word "better" is a very open one and can mean many things. My preferred rendering is "morally better", but... hey ho. Why are you demeaning something as being "old fashioned"? Your moral compass is Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274). Why mention a socialist class struggle? Are you outing yourself as a socialist, now? As I've said before, I'm not a socialist and I also don't buy into the class meme. So... good point, well made.
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Re: London riots

Postby munchingfoo on Thu Aug 11, 2011 4:45 pm

I'm not a large water-dwelling mammal Where did you get that preposterous hypothesis? Did Steve
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Re: London riots

Postby macgamer on Fri Aug 12, 2011 8:15 am

RedCelt69 wrote:Are you yawning at their actions, yawning at the suffering of all of those children... or just yawning at the fact that someone's mentioned it? If you pretend that bad things didn't happen, it doesn't mean that they didn't.

I'm just yawning at another futile attempt to wind me up. I'm just as disgusted and outraged at paedophilia as the next person.

The rioters... who, exactly, should they respect?

Well that is the question isn't it. Society and their families have hardly offered good role models in certain parts. I noticed some Labour MPs brought up the issue of unrelenting materialism in Western society that breeds the cult of celebrity, which is based on how much people earn rather than their moral probity. Restoration of the classical virtues, some of which come from Greek philosophy cannot be brought about overnight. Moreover, I'd be a little apprehensive about a top-down paternalistic statist approach, it needs to be bottom-up to be acceptable. Britain has never had much time for politicians telling us how to live our lives, partly because we know they are likely to be hypocrits.

The word "better" is a very open one and can mean many things. My preferred rendering is "morally better", but... hey ho. Why are you demeaning something as being "old fashioned"? Your moral compass is Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274). Why mention a socialist class struggle? Are you outing yourself as a socialist, now? As I've said before, I'm not a socialist and I also don't buy into the class meme. So... good point, well made.

This was me trying to wind you up, I see it elicited a reaction. I'm glad that you would see rejecting ideals because they are 'old fashioned' is not a coherent or justified argument. Not all change is for the better and much is, and has been, done in the name of 'progress'. Therefore society needs to review the changes that have taken place over the preceding decades and judge whether it was progress forsooth.

I would also agree that 'morally better' is a preferable way of considering it. However there is in Britain no cohesive idea of morality anymore (or diminishingly small common ground). I would not consider Britain a Christian country precisely, there are cultural elements that remain and the establishment of Church and State, but as an influence on how the majority of the populace's live their lives today it is rather limited.

I wouldn't say I'm a socialist by any means, but I am a severe critic or sceptic of materalism and the extremes or excesses of capitalism. I rather like G.K. Chesterton's critique of capitalism: 'The problem with capitalism, isn't that there are too many capitalists, rather that there are too few.' Many of the socialist philosophers were influenced greatly by Christianity. Pope Leo XIII's Encyclical Rerum Novarum can be seen as a critique of capitalism, especially its exploitation of works. It also defends the rights of works to form associations.

Depending on the topic of discussion, there are more things we might agree on than you'd imagine.
Last edited by macgamer on Fri Aug 12, 2011 8:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: London riots

Postby RedCelt69 on Fri Aug 12, 2011 8:15 am

I'm surprised to find a Telegraph writer agreeing with me. It was stomach-churning watching Cameron talk about the lack of morality of the feral youth considering the company he was in - including himself.

The moral decay of our society is as bad at the top as the bottom
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Re: London riots

Postby macgamer on Fri Aug 12, 2011 8:21 am

RedCelt69 wrote:I'm surprised to find a Telegraph writer agreeing with me. It was stomach-churning watching Cameron talk about the lack of morality of the feral youth considering the company he was in - including himself.

The moral decay of our society is as bad at the top as the bottom

Hear, hear!
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Re: London riots

Postby JJZM on Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:31 pm

I couldn't be arsed to write an essay but I was pretty darn embarrassed at the government's inability to respond to groups of yobs taking advantage of the nation's capital city. I'm currently interning in the USA and it made me ashamed to be British, good thing I'm from N. Ireland so I have dual Nationality.

Not that I'm pro-Nazi or anything but by contrast, in Nazi Germany during the reign of Hitler, yobs like this would be relocated to concentration camps and the unrest would be taken care of swiftly.

Britain needs to man-up a bit and learn from Belfast's police force - who know how to deal with a good riot.
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