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The burning of effigies...

Postby RedCelt69 on Mon Nov 28, 2011 5:07 pm

I was randomly browsing when this particular story caught my attention: Obama effigy burnt by St Andrews Conservative students, which isn't the first time that such events have taken place by the (really not very)esteemed right-wingers of St Andrews (as mentioned on Political Scrapbook):-

The Conservative Association which caused outrage by burning an effigy of Barack Obama have previously torched a likeness of Nelson Mandela on numerous occasions and toasted Apartheid at their annual dinners. The group at St Andrews University have been excoriated for the racial insensitivities of the stunt — but the burning of Mandela, which occurred most recently in 2005, recalls student posters and t-shirts from the 1980s


I mean, I knew that there was an element of Conservatism at St Andrews, but... yeesh!

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Re: The burning of effigies...

Postby Jormungand on Mon Nov 28, 2011 5:26 pm

I'm no Conservative but this is kind of sad. This is the sort of thing LeftSoc would do and everyone knows how much of a joke they are. But the society representing one of the two major parties, and the one currently in power? Nice.....
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Re: The burning of effigies...

Postby jollytiddlywink on Tue Nov 29, 2011 9:36 pm

I'm rather puzzled that this took as long as it did to get onto the Sinner.

I'm disgusted but I can't say I'm surprised. I am, however, puzzled as to why on earth they did it. I don't mean the "don't you think this might make people very very offended and make Tories look even more like the Nasty Party" why, but rather why they apparently hate Obama so much that they opted to burn him in effigy.

I cannot think of any political or philosophical reason for doing so. Which does, it seems, leave us with blatant racism, wild stupidity and raging alcoholism, total incomprehension of Tory and Democratic political stances, or maybe all three.

Any and every which way, it reflects badly on the idiots who did it. They've shamed the University. I do hope that an investigation into just who it was brought the University into disrepute is under way!
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Re: The burning of effigies...

Postby Delts on Wed Nov 30, 2011 7:42 am

I'm still a bit confused why everyone is jumping up and down screaming racism. It had been fairly well established that they will burn effigies of anyone they just don't like much.

And why do it,everyone loves a bonfire don't they? Does burning effigies automatically equal absolute hate in our culture? We burn Guy Fawkes every year, I doubt anyone actually hates him these days...
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Re: The burning of effigies...

Postby RedCelt69 on Wed Nov 30, 2011 6:03 pm

Delts wrote:I'm still a bit confused why everyone is jumping up and down screaming racism. It had been fairly well established that they will burn effigies of anyone they just don't like much.

So, then; this particular association (that regularly toasted Apartheid)... who don't they much like? Who else have they burned effigies of? Bush Jr? Clinton? Bush Snr? Reagan? Carter? Nope... the first black US president. And the position he holds is an important one (and greatly reduces the reasons for them not liking him). Hard core Tories love America so very very much. The rightest of their right wing would love nothing more than a complete abandonment of Europe and a marriage (as the 51st state) to the USA. Such an idea gets them positively erect.

And yet here they are, burning an effigy of the president of the USA.

And you can't understand why the air is heavy with (more than) a suspicion of racism?

Delts wrote:And why do it,everyone loves a bonfire don't they? Does burning effigies automatically equal absolute hate in our culture? We burn Guy Fawkes every year, I doubt anyone actually hates him these days...

So, a centuries-old tradition that is dying out (I'm sure that it still happens, but I can't remember the last time I was at a fireworks night with a burning Guy Fawkes effigy) is in some way an explanation for an association's tradition of burning effigies of black people on the beach?

Yeah.
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Re: The burning of effigies...

Postby Delts on Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:16 am

"The same society has burned effigies of Gordon Brown and former South African president Nelson Mandela in the past, along with one of Mr Mills."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-e ... e-15847986

I also saw on twitter that they had burned Harriet Harmen and Peter Mandelson, alas I can not verify those two but the person who said it would likely know. So Racist, the actual act itself. No. Their choices may have been motivated by race like with Mandela but it wasn't a racist act in itself.

And two years ago, when I last managed to get to a fireworks display, there was still a Guy on the Bonfire. I've not seen any indication of that part of the tradition dying out at all.
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Re: The burning of effigies...

Postby wild_quinine on Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:14 pm

Made the front page of the Student newspaper in Edinburgh this week.

"St Andrews Conservatives burn Obama in effigy" by Alasdair Drennan.

I note from the article that Sam Fowles said "I do not believe this was a racist act, but that does not make it any less disgusting."

Not sure I agree with that, personally. Seems like a bit of a silly thing to say. Unless Sam Fowles thinks that, as Delts points out, it's only as bad to burn Guy Fawkes as it is to burn some guy because he's black. But I'm sure Sam doesn't really think that.
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Re: The burning of effigies...

Postby Delts on Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:02 pm

As far as forms of protesting go I honestly think effigy burning is one of the least harmful possible. You're doing nothing to harm or interrupt anyone else, their life or their business. The person whose effigy is being burned is in no way harmed. Why is it therefore so shocking and appalling? At no point have I heard a point as to why the conservative association did it so why not assume they did it as a fun act, even if it is in poor taste. In fact, as far as I'm aware this wasn't even meant to be a public event or to become public knowledge. Mountains and molehills springs to mind.
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Re: The burning of effigies...

Postby Hennessy on Fri Dec 23, 2011 2:42 pm

They burn an effigy of the pope every guy fawkes night in Lewes. Big whoop.

When Margaret Thatcher dies they'll probs be more than a few straw men wearing strings of pearls and wigs going up across the nation.

This is because he's black. Not because he's President of the USA. It says a lot about modern education that American racial sensibilities have been imported here, presumably to teach us some hammy lesson to kids about the dangers of racism. My sister does the civil rights movement for A levels. Ask her to name an 18th century philosopher, or politician, and she's stumped. Ask her which Kingdom Alfred the Great was from and she's tongue tied.

She's not an idiot either, she's hugely interested in history by comparison to her classmates, and devours her textbooks. So she knows all about the million man march and the Mongomery Bus boycott, but more importantly, she knows treating black people badly is wrong. To gain this magical epiphany she's missed out on 1000 years of our history, the ancient tensions of our society and the brilliance of British philosophers, statesmen and generals. Dead White Males, I suppose. The little domestic history she does know is confined almost entirely to the period of 1914-1945, because as we all know - Fascism is Wrong.
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Re: The burning of effigies...

Postby Senethro on Fri Dec 23, 2011 8:22 pm

its pretty funny how the dead white males are trotted out just as soon as ANY encroachment on their time in the curriculum is detected

i mean shit its not just that they were privileged then but now that they're getting displaced by uppity coloured folks?
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Re: The burning of effigies...

Postby The Cellar Bar on Sat Dec 24, 2011 1:20 pm

Hennessey is absolutely correct when he says that "it's because he's black"

Except unfortunately, the wrong end of a stick seems to have been grasped.

The view would seem to be that the reaction to the burning was only because he was black and that the trendy lefty tree huggers among us found that worthy of condemnation.

Whereas the point would be that the burning itself occured "because he was black" Just as previous "burnings" have included that of David Owen for instance back in the day when the world had the audacity to recognise Zimbabwe as no longer in the thrall of Empire and should be recognised as an independent country.

And The Quiffs among us objected to that notion and the shattering of the idea of "supremacy" and Empire. Background influence and then a particular kind of education somehow breeding a longing for an "Out of Africa" notion of how the world should be - free of damn Papists and the oiks and dregs knowing their place.

It's funny - because no reason was ever given for this choice in the first place. The Bush Corporation illegally invade another sovereign country leading to the deaths of going on for a million civilians and the deaths of British servicmen and women. Nothing. Then Obama organises the withdrawal of troops .........and the response is one of condemnation presumably and a suitable candidate for burning. I can think of nothing that the President of the United States has done otherwise that anyone could possibly find so offensive as warrant such a "fate"

And yes there would seem to be something wrong with the education system as applied to certain sectors of English society in that case. Just where the relevance of the burning of the Pope in effigy or education including that of the existence of King Arthur to the 21st century exists is beyond some of us.

But it speaks volumes in respect of the pre-occupations of those who see nothing wrong in lamenting the absence of myth as history in how we teach "our kids" these days, who find it difficult to keep the sarcasm out of their contributions when they say that "as we all know - Fascism is Wrong" as if that were up for debate or who seem to be the source for others among us who seem incapable of breaking the predeliction of prancing around in Nazi uniforms at parties and stag-dos.

Never mind the lament for King Arthur missing from the scenario - there is very obviously work to be done to bring some among us into the 21st century.
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Re: The burning of effigies...

Postby Hennessy on Sat Dec 24, 2011 8:08 pm

King Arthur may have been a myth but King Alfred certainly wasn't! If both of us have the wrong end of the stick then it is a very unusual stick indeed.

Surely, Cellar Bar, the burning of the Pope is just as relevant. In the context of these isles religious intolerance has a far deeper and more divisive history than the comparative johnny-come-lately - race relations. That was my point, not "who cares", but why has this been flagged as more of an issue than good old Papist bashing?

Anwyay, I'll move on to the next bit of your post I disagree with - "certain sectors of English society". Firstly it's been British history since 1707, and for a good deal before then to be honest. I lament the lack of a British national identity not carved out of the endlessly picked-over world wars, and resent the importation of ideas bred in far different climates to form a national staple that hammers home only the most basic and insulting of messages. I hope I managed to suggest that these hopelessly unconnected ideas and histories cannot form a national narrative on which to base the story of the British Isles, and that instead we are left pondering what sensibilities we should rationally adopt - all too often unquestioningly. It's in that context I see the furore over an effigy becoming a predictable discussion about these sensibilities instead of it being regarded as a stupid prank - which it was. I put it forward that if we had a reliable educational establishment that taught students proper British history then in the course of this education they would have space to examine all the different tensions and sensibilties that have shaped a nation. I'd hope in the course of these discussions they'd gain a British perspective on history and so be able to lay to rest the sectarian and racist past, so events like these would be what they are - pretty boring by context, and not much else.

The Bush Corporation illegally invade another sovereign country leading to the deaths of going on for a million civilians and the deaths of British servicmen and women


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Re: The burning of effigies...

Postby Senethro on Sat Dec 24, 2011 11:31 pm

so you're basically saying that a bunch of guys with a strange history of burning effigies of prominent black people is ok and that if only everyone else held the right opinionsthen they'd totally understand how this isn't offensive

(and schools are the method to impose these opinions by being as goddamn british as possible)

if it was "only" an ill advised prank then they're certainly not going to benefit from you excusing it instead of pointing out their track record
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Re: The burning of effigies...

Postby Hennessy on Sat Jan 07, 2012 8:41 pm

"
so you're basically saying that a bunch of guys with a strange history of burning effigies of prominent black people is ok and that if only everyone else held the right opinionsthen they'd totally understand how this isn't offensive

(and schools are the method to impose these opinions by being as goddamn british as possible)"


As a gross, gross oversimplification, then yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Of course my writing is affectedly blokey and irritating so I must admit surprise you managed to get even that much out of it.

On another note - has anyone noticed racism is suddenly all over the place following the Stephen Lawrence verdict?
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Re: The burning of effigies...

Postby Senethro on Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:03 pm

it was the affectedly that was the most significant part

and thats something i'm not at all innocent of as i've always affected inability to puncuate and non-correction of typos as a disrespectful tone of writing

basically its that whenever you're wrong and you know you wrong you move the arguement to an emotive non intellectual stance because feelings can't be wrong (they can)

or at least that what i used to think because i credited you with the intelligence to know better and thought you were just cynically devils advocating and being knowingly intellectually dishonest/lazy but now i guess i don't know? i mean even when trolling id find it difficult to say "political correctness is damaging our education system" or tivializing racism without vomiting in my mouth a little
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Re: The burning of effigies...

Postby Hennessy on Wed Jan 11, 2012 3:50 pm

Senethro wrote:it was the affectedly that was the most significant part

and thats something i'm not at all innocent of as i've always affected inability to puncuate and non-correction of typos as a disrespectful tone of writing

basically its that whenever you're wrong and you know you wrong you move the arguement to an emotive non intellectual stance because feelings can't be wrong (they can)

or at least that what i used to think because i credited you with the intelligence to know better and thought you were just cynically devils advocating and being knowingly intellectually dishonest/lazy but now i guess i don't know? i mean even when trolling id find it difficult to say "political correctness is damaging our education system" or tivializing racism without vomiting in my mouth a little


Sorry, how does this contribute anything, at all? I may have had a wee spot of trouble in the past identifying ad hominem but I can reasonably assume that's what you're doing here. You're right, I am too emotional, I'm sitting here having blubbled uncontrollably into my Conservative Party handkerchief for all of four minutes now, so wounding have you been. Although, there were a couple of lines in there that cheered me up...

wrong and you know you wrong


Sorry are we speaking ebonics now? Add "innit" or "bruv" to the end and you have the idle London prattle of the groups of Afro-Caribbean teenagers who hang out at the end of my road. Charming fellows, no doubt victims of that miasmic passive racism white people unconsciously exude. That or their cheeky penchant for petty theft and burglary.

id find it difficult to say "political correctness is damaging our education system" or tivializing racism without vomiting in my mouth a little


Is it all those words in perfect sequence that makes you choke up some vomit or is there some kind of three word combo that would work? Because knowing that about you makes me feel better.
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Re: The burning of effigies...

Postby Senethro on Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:59 pm

Hennessy wrote:
Senethro wrote:it was the affectedly that was the most significant part

and thats something i'm not at all innocent of as i've always affected inability to puncuate and non-correction of typos as a disrespectful tone of writing

basically its that whenever you're wrong and you know you wrong you move the arguement to an emotive non intellectual stance because feelings can't be wrong (they can)

or at least that what i used to think because i credited you with the intelligence to know better and thought you were just cynically devils advocating and being knowingly intellectually dishonest/lazy but now i guess i don't know? i mean even when trolling id find it difficult to say "political correctness is damaging our education system" or tivializing racism without vomiting in my mouth a little


Sorry, how does this contribute anything, at all? I may have had a wee spot of trouble in the past identifying ad hominem but I can reasonably assume that's what you're doing here. You're right, I am too emotional, I'm sitting here having blubbled uncontrollably into my Conservative Party handkerchief for all of four minutes now, so wounding have you been. Although, there were a couple of lines in there that cheered me up...


of course its a little ad hominem because i'm not getting any consistent feeling of sincerity from you, it all just looks like trolling and so not worth engaging with

wrong and you know you wrong


Sorry are we speaking ebonics now? Add "innit" or "bruv" to the end and you have the idle London prattle of the groups of Afro-Caribbean teenagers who hang out at the end of my road. Charming fellows, no doubt victims of that miasmic passive racism white people unconsciously exude. That or their cheeky penchant for petty theft and burglary.


haha, what a great typo on my part - and an interseting reading of it by you.

look this is the part of you that i don't get

is this paragraph a calculated gambit to make me angry by offending ALL of my sensibilities or a sincere statement that you think black people are scum

so a racist shithead or a bit of a jerk - how am i supposed to respond here?

this is in your post where in your first paragraph you ask for a real contribution and in the second you are terriblew

i'm experiencing perpetual expectation whiplash here as i'm half suspicious is the whole point. i mean i suppose ad hominmen is commen enough now that to hear it from someone who claims to argue from the gut isn't that unusual, just incongruous, but it is this constant shifting of the framing of whatever thread subject between high and low that puzzles me

id find it difficult to say "political correctness is damaging our education system" or tivializing racism without vomiting in my mouth a little


Is it all those words in perfect sequence that makes you choke up some vomit or is there some kind of three word combo that would work? Because knowing that about you makes me feel better.
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Re: The burning of effigies...

Postby Hennessy on Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:10 pm

Sorry are we speaking ebonics now? Add "innit" or "bruv" to the end and you have the idle London prattle of the groups of Afro-Caribbean teenagers who hang out at the end of my road. Charming fellows, no doubt victims of that miasmic passive racism white people unconsciously exude. That or their cheeky penchant for petty theft and burglary.


Well you caught me there. I returned the favour and looked up a bit of your post history. Typical Guardian fodder when you're getting into your stride - itching to declare your secularism, self consciously pro feminist and pro gay, guilt-laced approach to race relations, appreciative of sociological jargon to get you out of calling a spade a spade - well-fed socialist stuff, kind of middle of the road.

Very probably white, mid to late 20's, left of centre views, there's so little remarkable about what you have to say to the world Senethro I'm surprised you seem to physically abhor the other political or social colours others adopt. You should be welcoming the very existence of views that actively challenge your own, even if your own have hardened, all the time and forever. And what's wrong with framing the debate from an oblique angle? I may not stand by everything I have said in the past here, but I'm damned sure it's not going to become a chorus of cosy agreement, with the odd polite aside on a technical point. (refers back to snooze-fest God posts)
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Re: The burning of effigies...

Postby Senethro on Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:44 pm

so you trolled a bit, i called you on it, now i should be grateful for how you're shaking up my views and challenging my preconceptions

well gj there I feel enriched.

everything you said about me is p much true and is stuff im cool with including being unremarakable

look its not about turning everythign into a leftie lovein its more about why charge at every red rag you wave if you're only going to whip it away and tell how youre doing this huge service and favour

especially when casual racism isn't even a political position, its just being a shithead

so....

Hey RedCelt, are you still reading this? /MensRights is pretty cool huh?
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Re: The burning of effigies...

Postby Hennessy on Wed Jan 11, 2012 11:13 pm

I ain't done with you yet Senethro. Let's start rowing back towards the topic shall we? Firstly, as you so kindly raised race I'd like to discuss it.

What's most interesting to me, as a "casual racist", is that we've really decided since the Stephen Lawrence verdict, to go down that path, haven't we?

The storm over Diane Abbott's comments (I told you all to watch her). The whites were up in arms over her accusation we "divide and rule" to maintain power. Pathetic of course, totally forseeable for a politician of her caliber. The real story though is the scramble for victim status on behalf of the majority of people in this country, around 90% at last count. The white race is feeling victimised, apparently. I suspect you think it's pathetic because of our history of oppression of the poor natives but I think it's symptomatic of a larger victim culture that's taken root in our country. Sure it started in the black community, fed by the guilt of white intellectuals and taken advantage of by educated and comparatively middle-class blacks like Diane Abbott as a quick route to power.

I don't feel guilty for #tacticsasoldascolonialism, and indeed find it refreshing she tweeted what she meant. In a perfect world I would be able to reply in kind, pointing out what I believe to be several critical failings in the black community in the past thirty odd years since decolonisation. Instead of that though we seem to be moving towards a world where nobody talks about race at all. Ever. I don't believe that's healthy. Why is that? Fear of that God-awful line:

"I'm offended by your comment."

I'd like to open that line up and say what it really means:

"a set of values and colloquial history which I subscribe to when it suits me has been maligned, and using this as an excuse to avoid further scrutiny and possibly losing the argument I'm going to shut you down completely and force you to give a contrived apology."


So we trade the liberty of thought for the ephemeral value of ' not causing offence' to anyone, and indeed I hope the country we create by this intellectual and moral dishonesty is worth it for future generations.
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