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Gay AND Catholic?

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Re: Gay AND Catholic?

Postby macgamer on Thu Apr 12, 2012 3:08 pm

RedCelt69 wrote:So, you're borderline starving then, yeah? You've never eaten for the pleasure of the flavours... only for sustenance, every single time? We should be able to play your ribs like a xylophone. Unless you're a hypocrite.

Pleasure does not prevent the function of an action, but seeking pleasure at the cost of the function, e.g., eating and then deliberately vomiting the food back up would.

RedCelt69 wrote:Do you send your crusty socks to a local Sperm Bank?

Oh, good one(!) Besides IVF is immoral too. It divorces the unitive aspect from the procreative. :P

RedCelt69 wrote:And you didn't answer my question about wine. Jesus thought wine was good... he even turned water into wine. Sustenance to pleasure.

Sustenance is still obtained from wine and other alcohols in the form of caloric energy. Drinking purposely to get drunk and lose one's ability to reason is immoral. Yes, I have done that too. I've never claimed to be sinless or without hypocrisy.

RedCelt69 wrote:Pragmatism, not schadenfreude. Don't judge others by your own values. I'm nowhere near as vindictive as you.

Perhaps. We'd need some objective assessment for that. Although, I can't see many people here rallying to defend your civility. You're renowned for being wont of insulting people disputing with you.

RedCelt69 wrote:Your self-prescribed celibacy hardly leaves room for foreplay... even the remotest beginnings which are captured in a kiss. Kissing isn't what your mouth evolved for.

I've explained what kissing may or may not be for in my reply to Cellar Bar. Anatomy is one thing, the functions of actions, which is what I'm discussing, another.

RedCelt69 wrote:There you go again... trying to turn this against me, rather than engaging. Hate the sin, love the sinner? Pffft! Not for you, eh, macgamer?

I'm replying in kind to your abuse, what have been doing with your recent comments then, if not to turn it onto me? Yes, I suppose I shouldn't, but actually I'm fallible and feel like defending myself. I don't hate you.

RedCelt69 wrote:No, I don't. She died when I was 12.

I apologise unreservedly for my comment.
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Re: Gay AND Catholic?

Postby macgamer on Thu Apr 12, 2012 3:48 pm

The Cellar Bar wrote:You are very probably a man of very many talents - and the "journey" consists of fulfilling them and learning their place in your life and how they might contribute to the lives of others around you. It's a journey we all make one way or the other and it isn't exactly the easiest process known to Mankind.

Thank-you.

The Cellar Bar wrote:All I have been saying is that beyond this particular, and admittedly immensely troubling part of it for you, there is plenty in your Faith which ought to sustain you and when necessary guide you when you need guidance.

[...]

There's no reason why Catholicism shouldn't remain a part of your life. Like I said, read the texts - NOT the interpretations from a particular agenda - and simply grow into who you are.

However, you seem to be advocating a dissent from Catholicism and most orthodox Christology held by the churches in common. If I became convinced by what you have been advocating, I could no longer in conscience remain Christian / Catholic.

The Cellar Bar wrote:Which is why I wasn't advocating any partcular experiment or accent on your sexuality to the extent of embarking on a mission of relationships. In fact, I had hoped that I made it clear that I didn't recommentd introducing any further confusion in your life right now. Just as your friend equally recommended not doing anything of the kind.That was why I pointed out that others, who are among other things, "gay" or "homosexual", don't find that it puts any particular crimp in what they are capable of achieving as human beings. It doesn't cloud their judgement,, doesn't prevent them from using those other talents they have been born with or honed. Not as the member of any particular "group" of human beings. But just through being an actual human being.

I couldn't agree more with that last sentence of yours. It probably is very much compatible with 'RedCelt69 Humanism'. I've made progress, but further development cannot be rushed. So, in some ways perhaps my starting this thread was a mistake. Perhaps I misjudged how much progress I had made and I wasn't ready to give a full defence and account of myself before RedCelt69 in particular...

The Cellar Bar wrote:Personal relationships are an element of who we are. The Adam and Eve quote we both referred to encompasses that. As I said, I didn't and don't read any implication in it that its primary function is to further the species. It's a far broader, more profound understanding of what a relationship consists of as being essentially a "partner" in life who can hold you up when necessary when a person finds that they can't stand up to it itself. That represents pretty much any relationship and there are probably plenty of relationships which are non-sexual in nature. They are called "friendships" and they can go far further than simply "doing lunch" or going for a pint. It's why "straight" wedding vows talk of "in sickness and in health", for "richer and poorer" - all the elements of what might assault all of us at one time or another. Rather than one single specific item that probably doesn't take up much more than 3 or 4 or 5% of the average human being's life.

I agree with most of what you have written. I particularly liked this, 'who can hold you up when necessary when a person finds that they can't stand up to it itself.' Thinking about the future in the single life can be a bit daunting. However, what I bear in mind is the fact from my volunteering visiting the housebound and care homes is most of us will be alone towards the end even if we have been married. Extended family and friends are just as important as one's spouse.

I'm not going to deny myself close friendships that are needed to sustain anyone's life and the beneficial effect of helping friends in need has for oneself.

I find your approach, Cellar Bar, in this discussion far more persuasive than RedCelt69. Unless you both have teamed up to be 'good cop - bad cop'? :P

Debating with RedCelt69 has not brought out the best in me and I see that I've failed in necessary charity. I do not enjoy hurting people. I've not been convinced that homosexual sex is compatible with my conscience and I find it unlikely that I've convinced anyone else here!

Many here will still be under the impression that I'm deliberating 'hurting myself' or making myself unhappy through my moral convictions. The turmoil of last year was not about moral convictions but about accepting my SSA and integrating into my sense of 'self'. Last year I did hurt myself psychologically and nearly physically too. Now, I want to stay happy and most importantly, live.

Perhaps if I had killed myself last year that would have been a vindication for some people here.
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Re: Gay AND Catholic?

Postby RedCelt69 on Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:14 pm

macgamer wrote:Perhaps I misjudged how much progress I had made and I wasn't ready to give a full defence and account of myself before RedCelt69 in particular... far more persuasive than RedCelt69... Debating with RedCelt69 has not brought out the best in me

What!? Don't go turning this into something about me. You came here seeking praise. I didn't offer it (for reasons previously given). Not because your "coming out" isn't a good thing... but because the only reason you could have ever seen your homosexuality as a bad thing, is because you have chosen to do so. If you'd throw that Natural Law crap out of the window, you could be getting happily rimmed by the male companion of your choosing. Or, what the hell, stay celibate if sex isn't your thing; and you certainly wouldn't be the first to choose that path.

macgamer wrote:Perhaps if I had killed myself last year that would have been a vindication for some people here.

Really? If that was aimed at me (and I don't see any other likely candidates) you're barking up the wrong tree. Vindication? I'd sooner you cured yourself or (at the very least) stopped spreading your corrupted version of the world. IVF immoral? Abortion immoral? Contraceptives immoral? Only in a very specific rendering of the idea of morality.

If you find IVF to be immoral... don't do it.
If you find abortion to be immoral... don't have one.
If you find contraceptives to be immoral... don't use them.
If you find masturbation to be immoral... don't... oh, no... wait... the seed factory keeps producing seed, so there's no escaping that one.

Just... stop telling people (who use a rational morality) that they're being immoral because they don't believe in the same deity as you.
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Re: Gay AND Catholic?

Postby macgamer on Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:28 pm

RedCelt69 wrote:You came here seeking praise.

You're right, there was probably some of that, although not entirely. I was also seeking to test my own position and to use the anonymity to test the reaction of those unsympathetic to Catholicism to a Catholic with SSA who want to hold to Church teaching.

RedCelt69 wrote:The only reason you could have ever seen your homosexuality as a bad thing, is because you have chosen to do so. If you'd throw that Natural Law crap out of the window.

The expression of the SSA that most would advocate, rather than SSA itself. I am trying to determine the best way to live as a Catholic with SSA with certain psychological objections to homosexual sex. So as you say,
RedCelt69 wrote:
Or, what the hell, stay celibate if sex isn't your thing; and you certainly wouldn't be the first to choose that path.


RedCelt69 wrote:Really? If that was aimed at me (and I don't see any other likely candidates) you're barking up the wrong tree. Vindication? I'd sooner you cured yourself or (at the very least) stopped spreading your corrupted version of the world. IVF immoral? Abortion immoral? Contraceptives immoral? Only in a very specific rendering of the idea of morality.

[...]

Just... stop telling people (who use a rational morality) that they're being immoral because they don't believe in the same deity as you.

Well it hinges on whether you believe people have a right to speak out against those things they regard as immoral.

I'm sorry if I offended or hurt you.
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Re: Gay AND Catholic?

Postby RedCelt69 on Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:37 pm

Macgamer, over the Summer period, please take the time to read John Stuart Mill's On Liberty. It's just one book (most likely including some of his other writings) and not a (particularly) controversial one. You should find little in there that would offend you. You may well disagree with some of it, but you might at least recognise your own lack of liberalism and (more usefully) prevent you from equating the word "liberal" to the word "communist".

Your beliefs are yours to practice, just as others are free to practice theirs.
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Re: Gay AND Catholic?

Postby Frank on Fri Apr 13, 2012 8:28 pm

Macgamer - I was trying to come up with something more thoughtful and in-depth, but the following which I flippantly 'devised' in tiredness earlier is, I think, still of some value (if only for rephrasing the thrust of RedCelt's outlook in a way that's palateable and not burdened with other trappings).

To whit:

By having sexy non-baby-making sex you aren't deeming yourself infertile for all time. You can still procreate. This pre-occupation with asserted purpose isn't washed away because of it.

And if you're infertile, does that mean you get to have sex all the time?

Why does sexual jiggery pokery get burdened with 'only one use' when other things (like hands) get the full range of 'can be used for plenty of inventive, not-absolutely-defined purpose, vaguely sinful things'?

Tickling - immoral?
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Re: Gay AND Catholic?

Postby RedCelt69 on Fri Apr 13, 2012 10:04 pm

Frank wrote:Tickling - immoral?

Yes. Yes it is.

Oh, hang on... giving or receiving?
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Re: Gay AND Catholic?

Postby The Cellar Bar on Sat Apr 14, 2012 4:20 pm

And if you're infertile, does that mean you get to have sex all the time?


I reckon that opens up a whole can of worms for a fertile (sorry) imagination that is so inclined. If you're infertile, the next question, if you are inclined, is to wonder whether there is any purpose to the marriage in the first place, given that the righteous and non-sinful injunction and responsibility is to "go forth and multiply". There will be those who ask if there is any purpose and validity in a marriage if either or both couples aren't actually able to follow God's "will". From which you could device the argument thatthe marriage is "non-viable" and can be annulled. Or even worse, as some clowns have asserted in the past, that it is a sign of having done something in a previous life and this sis some sort of punishment.

The basic religious fact is that there were 10 Commandments laid down. That's it. Ten basic easy to remember "directions" as to how to live a decent and "God fearing" life. Now get on with it.

And from all of that, comes a mountainous range of presumptions and interpretations that can beggar belief. All rising from the minds of humans with a particular agenda and seeming to focus on the essential immorality of Mankind and how we must be aware of that and saddled with the obligation to somehow atone for it for the rest of one's life. Very little of it has any founding proof that bears scrutiny. And seems to choose to overlook the basic tenets of how to live a caring decent positive life but seems more interested in Stations of the Cross, debates over Stigmati ( that aren't even historically correct) and the parading of effigies (cf 2nd Commandment) through peasant towns at regular intervals and various gruelling exercises involving trekking up glass-sharp scree covered slopes in one's bare feet to remember how Christ suffered.

To the detriment of actually heeding what he actually taught in terms of His view of the rich and powerful, the celebration of life and the moral obligations involved in living in a society.

No real offence to anyone who does "believe" but one look at the exterior and interior of the likes of the Vatican and the various Cathedrals peppered across Europe and I suspect that not even Christ would recognise what has been done in His name in the intervening years. But I suspect that given his view of the goings on in the Temple that he would come up with a solution pretty quickly!!
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Re: Gay AND Catholic?

Postby Frank on Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:21 pm

Speaking of the abhorrent existence of the concept of actual tickling, here's an intriguing wee thought:

Clitoral Kludges: reproductive & recreative separation.
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