More human rights violations

[camel club]

Just been reading about the treatment of the prisoners from Guantanamo Bay on the bbc website:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3509750.stm

and the guardian website:
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/ ... 37,00.html

Does anyone else feel that the way that these guys have been treated, possible terrorist or not is completely abhorrent?

[camel club]

[s]camel club wrote on 17:21, 14th Mar 2004:
Does anyone else feel that the way that these guys have been treated, possible terrorist or not is completely abhorrent?


I guess not.

[Animal]

yes, it's awful

but we don't know the full facts, so we can't pass judgement.

[camel club]

Some of the articles say that although the people released had very little/no contact with each other, that they all had extremely similar stories to the way that they were treated. Surely this is some evidence.

Glad someone replied though, was begining to think no-one else cared a dam.

[Nature's Metropolis]

I saw pictures of people being held in Guantanamo Bay on the front of papers only a few weeks ago. They had huge orange masks over their faces, some kind of sensory deprivation, and were bound and couldn't even stand properly.

Nobody, terrorist or otherwise, deserves to be treated in that way whatever the (alleged) crime, and worst of all, most of the people held in Guantanamo Bay haven't even been proved guilty yet and are unlikely to get a fair trial anyway.

Makes me really angry, mostly at the American government, and the fact that nobody is going to do anything about it

[camel club]

makes me very angry too. It makes me want to do something about it myself. Sure thing, we can write letters to our mps and the such like, but does that actually work?

I have no doubt that some if not a lot of the people still held in Cuba are perfectly innocent and were simply in the wrong place at the wrong time. I can't help feeling, that could be me, or my brother or my dad.

At very least, the people in Guantanamo bay deserve a fair trial. But surely a country such as the US which takes such a moral high ground all the time can't get away with treating people this way.

makes me sick.

[tintin]

I love the notice outside the Guantanamo Bay camp, on the wire fence topped with barbed wire, holding the prisoners in, which says, "Honor Bound to defend freedom".

[Manic23]

It just adds fuel to the argument that America is no longer a democracy, but a dictatorship, which I totally agree with.

[Nelson]

The United States of America has never claimed itself to be a democracy, only a republic.

(Note, the CIA World Factbook lists it as "Constitution-based federal republic; strong democratic tradition ".

[hr]"The Council, the Council can go to hell. And the emergency session can go to hell. And you, you can go to hell too. I wouldn't want you to feel left out!"

[iohannes]

[s]Nelson wrote on 18:22, 15th Mar 2004:
(Note, the CIA World Factbook lists it as "Constitution-based federal republic; strong democratic tradition ".


Strong democratic tradition. HAHAHA!

Is this the tradition where the President is created by the supreme court despite having less votes than his opponent?

[Nelson]

It's a tradition, and sometimes traditions are modified, or broken.
And if he does it again this year it becomes a new tradition...

Aparently, and from the same source:
"election results: George W. BUSH elected president; percent of popular vote - George W. BUSH (Republican Party) 48%, Albert A. GORE, Jr. (Democratic Party) 48%, Ralph NADER (Green Party) 3%, other 1% "

[hr]"The Council, the Council can go to hell. And the emergency session can go to hell. And you, you can go to hell too. I wouldn't want you to feel left out!"

[Maisha]

[s]Animal wrote on 00:24, 15th Mar 2004:
yes, it's awful

but we don't know the full facts, so we can't pass judgement.


I agree that if the 3 guys are inoccent it is a terrible thing to happen to them, but we dont know the facts, and if they are/were terrorists then I think that the US government had every right to do what they did. I think people are getting too involved in this Human rights rubbish! If a person has done something so inhumane (spelling?) as killing people because of their beliefs/ what they represent, then they shouldnt be classed as a human being belonging to society. The same applies to other criminals (eg the James Bulger case) If a person is willing to carry out such obscene acts of evilness on another living creature they are no longer human, they are monsters and deserve no rights whatsoever!
(sorry for ranting! Am in one of those moods!)

[hr]
Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity

[Plette]

[s]Maisha wrote on 20:53, 15th Mar 2004:
I agree that if the 3 guys are inoccent it is a terrible thing to happen to them, but we dont know the facts, and if they are/were terrorists then I think that the US government had every right to do what they did. I think people are getting too involved in this Human rights rubbish! If a person has done something so inhumane (spelling?) as killing people because of their beliefs/ what they represent, then they shouldnt be classed as a human being belonging to society. The same applies to other criminals (eg the James Bulger case) If a person is willing to carry out such obscene acts of evilness on another living creature they are no longer human, they are monsters and deserve no rights whatsoever!
(sorry for ranting! Am in one of those moods!)



Even if I agreed with your claim that someone who has committed a crime is no longer entitled to rights (which I most certainly do not), do you not see that the main reason everyone is upset about this is that they were confined and possibly mistreated without actually being convicted of anything, or indeed without even being charged?

If you think a convincted criminal loses all rights, that's one thing. But someone who is merely accused of a crime? That's ridiculous.

This 'human rights rubbish,' as you put it, is there to stop people from being unjustly mistreated. Confining people on vague suspicion of crimes, never charging them, and releasing them months later without so much as an apology is not acceptable. How would you feel if it was your father or sister or close friend confined there? How would you feel if it was YOU, and you were arrested just because you were in the wrong place at the wrong time, but you never got a chance to prove your innocence because you never got a trial? I bet you'd have more respect for human rights "rubbish."

[camel club]

Well said Plette!

Just because someone has done something terrible, doesn't give anyone else the excuse to do terrible things themselves, even to that person.

And I do beleive everyone, no matter what a person has done, they should have the right to one day make amends for what they have done.

Shame on you Maisha!

[Happy Pappy]

Man I really get tried of people always ragging on the U.S. How many of you have really been there....you all just get your facts from what ever the media decides to say that day. You can't really make a fair assesment of the U.S. unless you have actually spent some time there (and I dont just mean a weekend holiday to Disney World). I have been there many times and even lived there at one point, to me I have been to much worst places. The U.S. as a whole isn't any worst then the U.K. or any other country in Europe. Though I agree with you guys that people should be given rights i also see why the U.S. is being so protective. I was living in the U.S. and going to school there during Sept. 11 and fully experienced friends of mine that had lost many people to the terrorist attach. Well after thats been said...

I think you guys should look and a varied of different media sources before you make an assumption about something. Every media soure has an agenda. About people being locked up in G. Bay well I have read many articles that reject just about everything that one says.....on the the resent ones have been about a very young Iraci soldier(could still be considered a teen)who was picted during and American raid. He was just released and the first thing he told the press was how much he liked it there. For the first time he got to eat regular healthy meals and go to school. And he kept talking about how the American soldiers there tought heim how to play differnet sports (he liked kickball). Well my point is is dont believe everything there are both good and bad stories relating to G. Bay. Also you cant blame the U.S. that much, they wouldn't have sent anyone there unless they had a good reason. sorry for this being do long.

Happy

[tintin]

[s]Unregisted User Happy Pappy wrote on 01:02, 16th Mar 2004:
....you all just get your facts from what ever the media decides to say that day. You can't really make a fair assesment of the U.S. unless you have actually spent some time there (and I dont just mean a weekend holiday to Disney World). I have been there many times and even lived there at one point, to me I have been to much worst places. The U.S. as a whole isn't any worst then the U.K. or any other country in Europe.

Um, no, actually. It took me far longer than flipping through yesterday's Sun to come to an anti-American viewpoint. I may like individual Americans, but collectively, as a nation, I don't.

I dislike their imperialist mission to "bring democracy to the oppressed peoples of the world" while at the same time supporting those institutions which don't believe in democracy. If anyone disagrees with Uncle Sam's wishes, then they get heavy-handed on them and withdraw all support be it financial or military.

I dislike the fact that while they destroyed the British Empire, and condemn all Empires as a Bad Thing, they are building up one of their own. Look at all those little outposts of the USA dotted around the globe.

I dislike the way they are slapping Russia in the face i.e. they are bad winners: they won the Cold War, not because their own ideology was any better than the Soviet Union's, but because they bled them dry. So what are they doing now? Forcing Russia out of Central Asia in order that they may move in. Encouraging the Russian troops out of Georgia so that they may move in. Having displaced Russian influence out of Eastern Europe, the Yanks move in, bringing American morals, McDonald's and crap American movies to the oppressed peoples who crave American-style "democracy".

I dislike their domination of world entertainment - I have seen very few, if any, quality American films. I cannot relate to what they portray in American films, so goodness only knows how someone in e.g. Uzbekistan will, after their own culture has been wiped out by shopping "mahhhls", cinemas and French fries.

The protrayal of America in films is one of lawlessness, policemen and gunfights. Apparently after talking to Americans this is not the case - but why pump out this anodyne and violent image if it ISN'T WHAT THEY COUNTRY IS LIKE IN PRACTICE?

I dislike the way America tells everyone what to do, as if their way is far superior to anyone else's. As soon as someone like France refuses to support the Warriors of Peace, they impose heavy sanctions on them. How childish - are they unable to discuss the matter in the open, in a free, democratic and measured way, a way they try to promote to the rest of the world? No, I don't think so.

I dislike the way they claim to have won both World Wars singlehandedly. They keep very quiet about losing Vietnam - or is that because they can't take it?

Though I agree with you guys that people should be given rights i also see why the U.S. is being so protective.

Because for the first time, they found out the hard way that many people didn't actually respect them.

I think you guys should look and a varied of different media sources before you make an assumption about something.

I myself do. I also read the press at home in SE Asia, and am quite frankly disturbed by the content of most of the newspapers: the Foreign News seems mostly to consist of American happenings and silly film- and popstars. The TV networks show nothing but American tripe interspersed with American adverts for American products. How can I avoid it - it just makes me want to visit even less.

[addiction]

you havnt ever seen a good American film? Im guessing you're anti-American, but this is going too far. Casablanca, anyone? Some like it hot? the Shawshank Redemption? christ, I could go on and on...
I think its coz America makes the most films that they churn out the most crap, but once in a while they definitely get it very right.

[Chain Mailer]

you havnt ever seen a good American film? Im guessing you're anti-American, but this is going too far. Casablanca, anyone? Some like it hot? the Shawshank Redemption? christ, I could go on and on...
I think its coz America makes the most films that they churn out the most crap, but once in a while they definitely get it very right.


Damn right! America has given us some classic viewing and at least they have the guts to show some stuff which aint that great! No one can judge a country on what you hear or see in any media! Its all generalisation and stereotyping! Kick ass u wonderful peeps!



[hr]
Not one shred of evidence supports the notion that life is serious

[Ewan MacDonald]

[s]tintin wrote on 08:32, 16th Mar 2004:[i]
[s]Unregisted User Happy Pappy wrote on 01:02, 16th Mar 2004:[i]
I may like individual Americans, but collectively, as a nation, I don't.

I dislike their imperialist mission to "bring democracy to the oppressed peoples of the world" while at the same time supporting those institutions which don't believe in democracy. If anyone disagrees with Uncle Sam's wishes, then they get heavy-handed on them and withdraw all support be it financial or military.

I dislike the fact that while they destroyed the British Empire, and condemn all Empires as a Bad Thing, they are building up one of their own. Look at all those little outposts of the USA dotted around the globe.

I dislike the way they are slapping Russia in the face i.e. they are bad winners: they won the Cold War, not because their own ideology was any better than the Soviet Union's, but because they bled them dry. So what are they doing now? Forcing Russia out of Central Asia in order that they may move in. Encouraging the Russian troops out of Georgia so that they may move in. Having displaced Russian influence out of Eastern Europe, the Yanks move in, bringing American morals, McDonald's and crap American movies to the oppressed peoples who crave American-style "democracy".

I dislike the way America tells everyone what to do, as if their way is far superior to anyone else's. As soon as someone like France refuses to support the Warriors of Peace, they impose heavy sanctions on them. How childish - are they unable to discuss the matter in the open, in a free, democratic and measured way, a way they try to promote to the rest of the world? No, I don't think so.

I dislike the way they claim to have won both World Wars singlehandedly. They keep very quiet about losing Vietnam - or is that because they can't take it?

Right, I've only selected a few examples of tintin's anti-american rant just to show why I get really anoyed by the ill-informed bollox that is regularly spouted by people who dislike America.

1.) Their imperialist message, no. What america does is encourage free trade, freedom of Speech, and Human rights. That isn't imperialism, that is a moral perspective that should be encouraged, unless you believe those attributes to be a bad thing.

2.)They destroyed the British Empire. Even of the British Emprie was a completely good thing, and it wasn't, surely the financial and military obligations of two world wars had more to do with the colpse of the British Empire. Apologies if my heart does not bleed that London can't oppress a large proportion of the globe.

3.) Russia. Bearing in mind that America has left Putin alone and not condemned him for his outrageous anti-democratic policies I think that that point falls. Secondly the idea that their idology was superior to America, so now you believe that communism is uperior to free-market democracy and capitalism.

4.) America tells everyone what to do. Well they don't, what America does is actually do things, as opposed to the french who as well as being garlic chewing surrender monkeys, would rather talk, discuss, and just like me, procrastinate. Also since I presume this is a reference to Iraq, Frane did not want to be involved because of the large weapons deals they had with Saddam. I'm glad America ignored them.

5.)I will concede that in WWII America did not save Britain, the RAF did. However, it is accurate to state that neither conflict could have been won without American intervention. In WWI the Allies moved less distance than an ashmatic ant with heavy shopping until America intervened. If they hadn't then the large number of German soldiers moving from the Eastern frnt might well have ben decisive. In WWII how exactly was Britain going to conques Europe?

So basically, all the examples I have selected above clearly show that your dislike of America is based on misguided opinion and bias, ith very little fact in there. I'm not American, would be insulted if called one, but the rampant Anti-Americanism of some of the British Liberals really annoys me, mainly as it is based on the same misguided rubbish that tintin wrote.

[hr]
In matters of grave importance, style, not sincerity, is the vital thing.
Oscar Wilde, The Importance of being Earnest (III)

[Plette]

I'm not sure who decided that anyone objecting to what happened in Guantanamo Bay is just pissed off because they don't like America and its movies...but that's simply not the case.

I for one would be just as upset if it were Russia, China, Nigeria, Canada, France, etc doing the same thing. It's not right to detain people without charge and without trial, period. It's against American law, in fact, although since the people they detained were not Americans they seemed to feel that they were not entitled to the benefit of the justice system which America is so proud of.

Yes, there is a lot of anti-American press in the world, but there's a lot of pro-American press. And it's not a matter of reading both and choosing which one to believe; it's a matter of reading both, questioning both, trying to see through their agenda and gleaning whatever hard facts you can from the story to make up your own mind. I read CNN accounts of G. Bay, and they freely admitted these people were being held without charge or trial, but pulled out the "they might be terrorists" excuse as a good enough reason for it. It's not.