Minutes

[Eliot Wilson]

It is, as I've said before, beyond a joke. Especially when you consider that, as far as Board of Ten minutes are concerned, at any rate, the Clerk is REQUIRED to provide minutes in a timely fashion. What happened to agreeing the minutes of the previous week's meeting at a BoT meeting, then passing them to the General Office? Too bloody onerous?

[hr]

Bill and Ted beat the Grim Reaper at Twister

Bill: "You played very well, Death, especially with your totally heavy Death robes."

Death: "Don't patronise me."

[exnihilo]

Seemingly. Were I Convenor now I should ban former clerks from all Debating Society events until such time as they DO THE JOB THEY WERE ELECTED TO DO. Probably not much of a punishment, but the only sanction left.

[Eliot Wilson]

You're probably right. That there is going to be a gaping hole in the official record of what we trumpet as such a venerable and glorious institution as the Union Debating Society seems a shame. More worrying is that most people don't seem to give a flying fuck.

[hr]

Bill and Ted beat the Grim Reaper at Twister

Bill: "You played very well, Death, especially with your totally heavy Death robes."

Death: "Don't patronise me."

[Jamie potton]

...including the person who oversees the UDS from a Union standpoint: BoT minutes should be presented to SSC timeously, and those of debates must be preserved: regardless of whether or not anyone wants to salivate over them. It's time to put personal feelings aside when the job isn't getting done. It isn't enough to say that we have had a spate of Clerks who had personal problems, so we are "lucky that they are being done at all."

[David Bean]

This has gone beyond a joke. Look, it is perfectly simple: the minutes from this year are on the way, and many of them have been submitted already, but I can't speak of minutes from previous years which have not yet been produced, and the latter is by far the more pressing problem. I can't see what part of this simple statement people are failing to understand. So far as my responsibility to oversee the UDS is concerned, this does not extend to, you know, running it, and anyone who thinks that one of my priorities is securing Debates minutes is an idiot.

[hr]

Psalm 91:7

[Tweedle-Dum]

Do you consider that you were highly negligent in that you did nothing to secure minutes during your term as convenor?

Or do you delude yourself?

Don't tell us what to think.

[hr]

Tetragrammaton is a four letter word.

[Beth Conner]

Hi, just to let everyone know that the minutes from Wednesday's debate will be posted on our new website which will be available soon. Rachael has also asked me to put a copy of the minutes on the debates noticeboard in the Union every week and the minutes from Wednesday are up there now. If anyone really wants a copy of the minutes and can't make it to the Union, email me on bjc7 and i'll forward them to you. Constructive comments welcome.....

[Eliot Wilson]

All right, I'll keep this very simple. Two questions:

1) Does the minute book carried with such solemnity into LPH contain the minutes for LPH debates over the last five years?

2) If I went into the Union next week, could I find a complete set of Board of Ten minutes for the last five years?

If the answer to either of those questions is "no" (and I know perfectly well that it is), then clearly SOMEONE has been negligent. I'm struggling to see how it can't be the Clerks of the years in question, though Convenors bear a degree of responsibility too. But this hypersensitivity to criticism displayed by some (some who ought to know better, as well) is not helpful. Something should be done. Frankly, at least in terms of LPH minutes, it's something of a slight to everyone who spoke in LPH over the past five years (and, as that was not-infrequently me, I'm pissed off) that the UDS simply couldn't be bothered to keep a proper record of its proceedings.

[hr]

Bill and Ted beat the Grim Reaper at Twister

Bill: "You played very well, Death, especially with your totally heavy Death robes."

Death: "Don't patronise me."

[David Bean]

I'm starting to enjoy this. Tweedle-Dum: does the expression 'false dichotomy' mean anything to you? No, I do not consider myself negligent for the actions of the Clerk under me who failed to produce minutes, and nor am I deluding myself by thinking so. Your premise that I did nothing to secure the minutes is also false, since I actually pursued him and his successor pretty ardently, but I'm afraid we're coming back to the old expression involving a horse, water and drinking.

Eliot, from your post you appear to be claiming that if you can't find all of the minutes from the past five years, then all of the clerks during that period have been negligent. Well, that's more nonsense. The fact is that at least one Clerk during this period produced full sets of everything, so how that person can be held responsible for the failures of the other people who didn't produce minutes, or why the people who spoke in Parliament Hall should be slighted in the year in question, I can't tell, because it doesn't make sense.

You state 'something should be done', as though it were somehow a helpful comment, even though I've stated time and time again that something IS being done. Over the past couple of days, and before, I've stated that the immediate past Clerk is in the process of producing the minutes of last year, and if she isn't moving quickly enough for your liking, well, I'm afraid you're pretty much going to kiss her ass, because she has no reason in the world to respect someone who can't even be civil.

As far as the previous two years are concerned, well, the Clerk before Miss Westwood was Miss Jennings, whom you may astutely notice has returned to the Board of Ten as Championship Secretary. Don't you think it might be an idea to ask her about them, if you're so interested, instead of bothering me, the one person who's ACTUALLY DONE ALREADY what you want? As I've already said, Miss Jennings has stated that she is in the process of typing up both her minutes and those of her predecessor, Mr Roberts, but if you want to know more about this, you're going to have to ask her. The year before that was me, and I've already told you that those minutes are already available and in the book; before that was Stephen Burge and then previously Tom Jamieson, both of whom you sat on the Board of Ten with yourself and apparently did nothing to secure minutes from, so why you should pass the blame on to the current generation for that one is beyond me.

When Alex and Victoria do what they have promised, the minutes of the past four years will be complete, so the only ones who really have produced nothing will be from your generation, not ours. Go figure out that one.

[hr]

Psalm 91:7

[Dickie]

I am lookimg forward to entering the maiden speakers comp. Since there is no record of me ever having made a table speach in LPH!

[hr]

http://facebook.com/p.php?id=37106107&l=217e435e0a

[Eliot Wilson]

David, in what earthly sense am I 'bothering you' about the missing minutes? You're perceiving personal slights where there are none. Nor am I holding those who have produced minutes responsible for the lack of other minutes. What I said was perfectly simple: there are not complete minutes for the past five years or so (last time I checked the minute book in LPH, the last minutes were written by Alan Patterson), and so Clerks who have not ensured that minutes from their year are in the minute book should of course be held responsible for that.

As for trying to blame me for not ensuring that Messrs Jamieson and Burge produced minutes, that's beyond absurd. I was, indeed, on the Board for the majority of both of those years (I joined Mr Patterson's Board at a by-election), and I did from time to time express concern at the lack of LPH minutes, but I was Chairman of Ways and Means then Inter-'Varsity Secretary, not Clerk, nor Convenor, so it was hardly my responsibility. As far as it goes, by the way, I think there are reasonably full Board of Ten minutes from both of those years (certainly we saw them at Board meetings - I don't know what happened to them subsequently, because that wasn't within my remit).

Here's the bottom line. I've never been Clerk, but I have spoken a great many times in LPH, and it would be nice if, in years to come, I could leaf fondly through the formal record of my years in the UDS. The responsibility for keeping that record is the Clerk's. If you did so during your year as Clerk, then fine. You discharged the responsibility which you were elected to discharge. But as I am 99% certain that there are gaps in the minutes, the Clerks who failed to discharge that responsibility have to be regarded as negligent. Something should indeed be done, and I'm sorry if you don't think that's sufficiently helpful, but I fail to see what I (out of St Andrews, no longer a student) can do that people who are in St Andrews and still in positions of influence in the UDS can do. But as a former member of the Society (indeed, as one of a relatively small number of Honorary Life Members), I have every right to question what has been done or is being done.

[hr]

Bill and Ted beat the Grim Reaper at Twister

Bill: "You played very well, Death, especially with your totally heavy Death robes."

Death: "Don't patronise me."

[Jamie potton]

[quote]Quoting David Bean from 16:24, 15th Apr 2006
This has gone beyond a joke. Look, it is perfectly simple: the minutes from this year are on the way, and many of them have been submitted already, but I can't speak of minutes from previous years which have not yet been produced, and the latter is by far the more pressing problem. I can't see what part of this simple statement people are failing to understand. So far as my responsibility to oversee the UDS is concerned, this does not extend to, you know, running it, and anyone who thinks that one of my priorities is securing Debates minutes is an idiot.

[hr]

Don't be ridiculous, or insulting. We are all intelligent and well-versed enough in such things to know where your personal loyalties and affections *cough* lie. You didn't stand up when several matters under your purview were neglected or carried out incorrectly. The least of which:
the Clerk has to produce minutes: the Convenor has to present them, timeously: (an officer was recently censured for repeatedly not presenting the minutes that I had taken and given to her within the week, every week). Simple.
So stop defending the indefensible, or your own absurb notions/fantasies.
Take your thumb out of your mouth.

[Epeeduelist84]

Since the posters on this board obviously represent a group seriously interested in the Minutes of the society, I thought it would be helpful to point out that last Wednesday's LPH minutes are currently posted on the Sinner. Say what you will about the past, this Clerk is off to a good start.

[Eliot Wilson]

Yes, I noticed that. Jolly good. Additionally pleased to see my name being taken in vain.

[hr]

Bill and Ted beat the Grim Reaper at Twister

Bill: "You played very well, Death, especially with your totally heavy Death robes."

Death: "Don't patronise me."

[exnihilo]

I welcome it as much as the next man. But you'll pardon me if I point out that every new clerk always gets off to a good start, but enthusiasm tends to wane. Best not trumpet just yet.

[David Bean]

Quoting Jamie Potton from 14:33, 16th Apr 2006
Don't be ridiculous, or insulting. We are all intelligent and well-versed enough in such things to know where your personal loyalties and affections *cough* lie.

Don't be ridiculous or insulting? Fantastic! That's the biggest pots and kettles story I've ever heard. If, however, you're trying in some laboured fashion to assert that there's something improper about my relationship with Victoria, my only response is that you're all at sea. Yes, she's most probably my best friend, and yes, I'll defend her to the death, and if you don't think there's any value in loyalty then that's your lookout; but it also rather helps my case that she's done absolutely nothing wrong or improper. If you think differently, I suggest you tell her the same to her face, instead of coming over so nicely and politely with her as you always do, and then posting what amounts to abuse on the internet.

You didn't stand up when several matters under your purview were neglected or carried out incorrectly. The least of which:
the Clerk has to produce minutes: the Convenor has to present them, timeously: (an officer was recently censured for repeatedly not presenting the minutes that I had taken and given to her within the week, every week). Simple.

Sorry, sunshine, but that just ain't my job. Or at least, if that part of the job ain't being done, it's the responsibility of the chair of the relevant Committee, not the DoSDA, whatever your opinions on the matter might be. By the way, if that is 'the least of' the matters I've neglected, could you be kind enough to tell me what the others were?

So stop defending the indefensible, or your own absurb notions/fantasies.
Take your thumb out of your mouth.

Not sure what that last sentence was meant to signify, but the rest didn't make much more sense. I'll defend what I like when I like, thanks very much, your opinions as to the defensibility of my position notwithstanding.

Eliot: if you take a look in the minute book today, you'll find all of the minutes from 2002-'03, including the entire 'interregnum' period when I wasn't even the 'real' Clerk ('cause I'd been sacked and not re-elected yet, as I'm sure you'll remember ). And yes, far be it from me to question your right to ask about what's being done to redress any outstanding problems, but all I'm saying is that not only is the situation not (quite) as bad as you've portrayed it, but steps are being taken, and I hope you'll agree that having secured agreements from Alex and Victoria to complete the outstanding minutes since 2003-'04 as soon as they are able, represents as positive a step as it is reasonable to take at this juncture.

[hr]

Psalm 91:7

[exnihilo]

Oh, please! Abuse? Asking for minutes that were the sole function of her job as Clerk is scarcely abuse. Some perspective, please, Bean!

[Cain]

I second the call for perspective.



[hr]

I hold an element of surprise

[Dave the Explosive Newt]

I think this discussion would be better served by what the clerk has to say for her self, rather than David constantly defending her.

[hr]

Mmmm, cake.

[OhhMy]

I again call for perspective. Give Victoria a chance to complete them. They exist and there is the summmer. Its a tough job often writing 3000 words of minutes every week and then of course there are the BoT meetings. Dont forgett that she is a third year medic and I wouldn't blame her for being a bit behind. I have every faith that she will write them up and complete her job.

As to the other mater discussed on this thred in relation to the DoSDA and the previous clerk, I believe that any person who would spread such an entirley false and hatefull rumor is entirely dishonourable and without a thred of decency.

Grow up.