Opening a can of worms: 4th Edition D&D

[Spiryt]

So, thought I may as well ask for popular opinion seeing as many will now have had the chance to browse the new edition.

Things I like:
* Deliberate removal of set DC's for most skills- roleplay over rollplay.
* Merging of similar skills- no longer can someone disarm epic traps while not being able to pick the simplest of locks.
* Rebalancing of classes- low level play is no longer dominated by fighters or high level by wizards.
* Rebalancing of races- no races seem 'useless'.
* Encounter design system- 'buying' the monsters with XP feels a lot more intuitive and the monsters work together brilliantly.
* Grapple overhaul. Need I say more.
* Playing down the magic items. Removing a 30th level character's gear is harsh but no longer crippling.
* Removal of prestige class prerequisites- you make your character as you want it, not so that it qualifies for the "One-legged green-haired barbarian assassin" prestige class.

Things that annoyed me:
* Product advertising within core rulebooks.
* Area effects simplified, I think overly. I liked cones =(
* Forced character exit after level 30. I thought the idea of a roleplaying game is that you can't "win" ?
* Alignment system. I like the new structure, but I found the naming confusing.

Overall, I think 4.0 deserves its title, as opposed to 3.75. While obviously trying to drag the MMORPG players away from the computer and onto the tabletop, the core mechanic does what its predecessor did best- create varied yet solid and fun characters with minimal effort on the player's part.

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I meant every word I said, But only said half the words I meant
There's a load more where they came from, I suppose will get left unsent

[Spike]

+1

I think that the removal of cones was actually a good idea, as more often than, not it would cause a lot of confusion of *am i hit by that nasty dragon's breath weapon or not*. I also think that making everything hit squares as opposed to circles is a good thing as well.

I had a lot of fun playing as a 1st lvl wizard in a mini-campaign and was able to still be useful after the first encounter. (whereas in 3.5 my character would have run out of spells as fast as he would have run oput of hitpoints).

All in all I think 4.0 is a greatly imporved and reasonably balanced system. (yes I know it is possible to one-shot orcus but at least pun-pun does not exist...)

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From Rock to Opera

[Jono]

Using Roleplaying and D&D in the same sentence? For shame!

Yes, they've improved some things, and maybe worsened some others. All this just ignores the elephant in the room; the system itself is not condusive to good roleplaying!

That's not to say that it can't be used for roleplaying. But the game is far too in love with rolling dice, counting modifiers, and twinking out effects; rather than background, and believable world-building. Admittedly, the DM should be able to do that; but the DM is also capable of running without a rule-book. If so much info is dedicated to the rules, why not some help with running a game.

this isn't a problem in itself. Tight rules are quite useful. But the way the rules are presented to DM and Players alike, encourages too much familiarity and digestion (Marek). The rules should be there to facilitate the story and the adventure; nothing more . For all insistence to the contrary, D&D players expect, and are granted, an inordinate level of rule interpretation! This ingrains a culture of adversarial playing, with players attempting to get one over on the DM(Something I've noticed in almost all D&D games I've seen or played in), and detracts from the whole point of roleplaying. It's all well and good saying you can house-rule out anything you want; but it's not so easy when all your players cry foul, and feel hard done by whenever you try to do so.

The fact that Wizards have been able to market a competitive minatures game based on the SAME RULES, should be indicative of this problem.

As you might have garnered, I will be playing something different this year!


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I disagree with you in principle.

[Spiryt]

Quoting Jono from 16:27, 30th Jul 2008
Using Roleplaying and D&D in the same sentence? For shame!

Well, is that not like World of Warcraft toting its 'MMORPG' title as opposed to just MMOG?
I can understand your dislike of a system having a lot of rules, but to us folks who have been raised on Final Fantasy and weaned on Oblivion having definite rules is very comforting.

As for the Player VS DM situation, that's been addressed too. Throughout the books, it is maintained that not only the DM is responsible for making the game fun- the players' efforts are required too. It's a subtle touch, but it reminds folks that the spotlight is on the party as opposed to just their character.

They've recognized that random generation did little to make the game more fun- hence they just removed it. Random encounters, loot (Hooray! Three scrolls of Light!) and hit points gained at level up are all gone.

And as for help running a game, the 4.0 DMG is just that- a guide for dungeon masters. It contains hints on how to make a game successful and little else, no needless sections on prestige classes and magic items (Such things are now in the Player's Handbook, where they belong).

As for the Miniatures game, 4.0 tries to shy away from the 'Miniatures with Storyline' viewpoint. For example, while the Miniatures rules for cover (They're flagged up as such!) are provided, it's stated that you should use your judgment on a case-by-case basis and not rely on the letter of the rule.

[hr]

I meant every word I said, But only said half the words I meant
There's a load more where they came from, I suppose will get left unsent

[mhuzzell]

Quoting Jono from 16:27, 30th Jul 2008
Using Roleplaying and D&D in the same sentence? For shame!

Hey, watch it now! D&D is the granddaddy of all RPGs. How dare you? How very dare you?

Anyway, the massive customisation of rules (i.e., DM is God; do not question God) and twinking of effects and endless twiddling of dice is what D&D is all about. Particularly the dice -- what fun is an RPG without funny-shaped dice to geek out on and spin in between turns (also good for annoying all the other players at the table...)

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I FOUND JESUS... he was behind the couch the whole time!

[October]

I've not played 4thed yet, but what annoys me is the removal of the Half-Orc as a player class.
I mean I don't want to be some inbred deformed lizard to be the meat shield.

And on that note, I'm not happy with the Dragon-born altogether.
In 3.5 they had this rich and great history. A Definition of what they were and what they stand for, that really set their place in the world. Now their just another random race in a world full to bursting with little random races, that history robed and replaced with trip.

So I'm not a fan of the new guys.

But I can't comment on game mechanics until I play it, and so I'm looking forward to the first gamesoc of the year to have a good. Any DMs out there?


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Does no-one feel that giving geeks a justification such as Article 31 a bad move? - Frank