The KK - Is this the end for our intrepid duo (and some)??!

[munchingfoo]

Dear Members of the St Andrews community

I understand that the Kate Kennedy procession is a wonderful day in St Andrews and I hope it may continue to flourish as an important traditional event in our local calendar of activities.

The University will not, however, be participating officially in the procession this year nor continuing its recognition of the Kate Kennedy Club.

As Principal, I do not believe that a university can endorse a student club – even a club like the KK which is renowned for its charitable activities - from which so many of our students are excluded at birth.

The official endorsement of any club or society which excludes people because of their gender or race would be completely at odds with the values of this University and our commitment to foster an open and inclusive international community of scholars and students in St Andrews.

I look forward to the day when membership of the Kate Kennedy Club is open to every student of St Andrews at which point the university will be delighted to treat the Kate Kennedy Club in the same way as all other clubs and societies.

Louise Richardson
Principal and Vice-Chancellor

I don't know what I feel about this to be honest. Although I am a man and theoretically would have been eligible to join the KK if invited, given my social status pre-university this invite would never have happened. So I should really feel this is a good decision. I don't think I do though. I like St Andrews because of quirky little things like the KK and I'd hate to see us become just another PC Uni.

Anyone have any idea what she is on about when she mentions race here? Is it just a generalisation apart from the KK? (or does she believe they are the same as the KKK?).

[James01]

Can I just say... WHEY!!!! With bells on... brilliant, hopefully their smug smile will now have disappeared Well done Dr Richardson, just made my day!

[cant be bothered registering]

To be fair there's the "Lumsden Ladies" for the girls. Do they let in men? I'm not sure but probably not. Does the KK even discriminate against race? I knew they were a bit elitist but I didn't think they were racist.

[Guest]

Fuck yeah, shove that up you KK!

[RandomMusings]

Whatever next! Bursaries and means-testing? More books in the library? A computer system that actually lets you print pdfs without crashing the network?

Not sure what my opinion is on this matter though, it is certainly an interesting decision to make. Pretty sure they aren't racist though as I know there are Americans, Europeans, even Scots in the club!!! It seems like Dr Richardson is intent on rocking the boat a little, which many would say is no bad thing. Maybe she'll take down the Royal & Ancient too :p

[Freaker]

The race remark was of a general nature, I'm sure, the KK does not discriminate based on race, only on gender. The Lumsden Club is female-only.

The difference between the two is that the KK is a whole lot more visible in dealings with the University. While the Lumsden Club holds their 'charitable' events, it functions more like a private club that holds large events. The KK is actively asking for University recognition and participation in University events, and help from the University in supporting the club and its events - and I think she is perfectly right to say that the University should not have official business with a sexist club that has not yet really arrived in modern days.

To the best of my knowledge, their constitution states that in order for a member to resign, they should suggest women be admitted to the club. I bet they'll have fun discussing this issue!

[Raindance]

I don't think she was specifically saying the KK is racist. She just implied that exclusion on grounds of gender is akin to exclusion on racial grounds. Which is fair.

Also hasn't she already had a go at the R&A? They give honourary membership to the Principal usually but couldn't in this case so she refused an invite the the woman's equivalent. Correct me if I'm wrong here this is second-hand information.

[Abserdman]

I can't say I'm too sad about it to be honest. Though it does feel like a bit of St Andrews history is being erased.

[Hennessy]

DUNNO WHY THIS POPPED INTO MY HEAD, HURRRRRRRR!

[fearghas]

Yawn. I'm not entirely sure what will be achieved by this; the KK wasn't a recognised society by the University anyway, given that it's no affiliated. Like the CU. I wonder if they will be next in the firing line? One can only hope.

Also, she's not that keen on the Lumsden club either, I think the words "apartheid" were mentioned in reference to them.

Also, the R&A doesn't give membership to all principals, I believe (and I'm sure lots will correct me if I'm wrong) that Struther was a member when he became Principal, then old Langers got a psuedo-membership that he ever did anything with. I know this is St Andrews, but twice does not a tradition make.

Frankly, it's just a good thing that our dear Principal herself never considered to joining a group that debarred membership on base of religion or race, or, you know, were a little bit violent to people outwith their belief system. Oh wait...

[Haunted]

Do they let girls join the boy scouts yet? What place is there in this world for such an organisation that would exclude so many at birth?

Anyhoo, the KK can do what they like with their club, no governmental body should be able to dictate terms to them. Having said that, the university is well within it's right to discontinue association with them, but the reasons they have given for doing so seem misguided at best.

[Raindance]

Do they let girls join the boy scouts yet? What place is there in this world for such an organisation that would exclude so many at birth?

Anyhoo, the KK can do what they like with their club, no governmental body should be able to dictate terms to them. Having said that, the university is well within it's right to discontinue association with them, but the reasons they have given for doing so seem misguided at best.

Girls have been allowed to join the scouts for some time haven't they? See they got with the times!

[schmod]

Do they let girls join the boy scouts yet?

Actually, yes. Scouting is co-educational in many countries. The UK, in fact, happens to be one of those countries!

[starsandsparkles]

I wonder if this will have any ramifications for Raisin Monday, with the boys doing the clean up etc?

As far as I know, the KK hold a drinks party at the beginning of the year that is open to all first year boys - it's not like you need a specific invite to put yourself forward. I know it's slightly different but my former flatmate is/was a Lumsden girl and wasn't any more "well off" than the rest of us.

I think it's a mistake for the Principal to mention racism in her e-mail, even if she didn't mean it in specific reference to the KK because it implies that they are racist.

Do women really still get worked up about male-exclusive things, or is it simply a (loud) minority? I know my friends and I really couldn't care less.

[David Bean]

This is a surprising and controversial announcement, which I shall be interested to follow as the story develops.

My own view of the KK when I was at St Andrews was rather complex. Yes, I appreciated the arguments about elitism and discrimination – indeed the 1892 Society was run by friends of mine, albeit from the other side of the political spectrum – but I never could motivate myself to care about them very much. The work they do in areas like the Procession, the cleanup on Raisin Monday and in upholding the gown traditions does not involve positions of great prestige whose holders derive personal benefit – it’s just a lot of hard work, and as far as I was concerned if the KK was prepared to take that work on then they should be applauded, whatever we thought of their membership policies.

I am surprised by this announcement mainly, however, because it would appear – and the practical effects of this announcement are unclear enough to necessitate some conjecture – that the university has done a complete volte-face on its previous position regarding the KK, and traditions more generally. The university was never deaf to concerns about exclusion, and it was exactly because it was felt to be wrong that non-KK members should be excluded from helping organise the procession that the Procession Committee was created a few years ago. This group, although involving the KK – as the chief suppliers of labour, and the owners of the costumes – was an independent body whose composition was agreed by the university as an acceptable response to the concerns that would allow the university to continue its support. With this new announcement, the university appears to have taken the same rationale but argued it through to a completely different conclusion – which seems to be that the university will not condone or participate in any event even remotely connected to the KK – without offering any explanation of the change.

In practical matters, too, I should have concerns. The message expresses hope that the event will continue to play a part in the social calendar, but if it is withdrawing its support completely, how can this be so? Whoever organises the procession will need at the very least some logistical support from the university in terms of making the Quad and some janitors available to assist with mustering, space for a drinks reception and, most likely, support in working with the police. If this is to be withdrawn, how can the event go ahead, and so how could the university’s ‘hope’ that the event will continue regardless possibly be realised?

Meanwhile, the university needs to define exactly what it means about not ‘continuing the recognition of the KK’ and, where this means choosing between ending the KK’s involvement in any particular aspect of St Andrews life and ending the university’s, explaining exactly what approach it intends to take.

[Georgina]

Also hasn't she already had a go at the R&A? They give honourary membership to the Principal usually but couldn't in this case so she refused an invite the the woman's equivalent. Correct me if I'm wrong here this is second-hand information.

Louise has said very little about the R&A, apart from the fact that she cannot conceive of how she would have the time to play golf! She seems to consider it a matter of little importance and doesn't think there should be debate over something unrelated to the university. I don't know what you mean by the woman's equivalent to the R&A - all the golf clubs in St Andrews are single-sex, so there are various women's golf clubs.

As concerns the KK, I think there will be a lot of happy students today, who have been fed-up with the KK presenting themselves as either representatives of the student body or a central pillar of the student community. I certainly have been annoyed for the four years I've been here that such a sexist and unpleasant group has made consistent attempts to invariably dominate tradition and parts of the social scene, and have been supported by the University in doing so. I'm pleased that the Principal has said the university won't recognise them in the current form, and I think this fits into the modern attitude she's bringing to the position.

[Haunted]

Do they let girls join the boy scouts yet?

Actually, yes. Scouting is co-educational in many countries. The UK, in fact, happens to be one of those countries!

Great scott maybe I am behind on the times. I take it this is more than just having the female equivalent (Girl Scouts) but that now there is no Boy Scouts or Girl Scouts and that they are only one group that includes everyone?
What about the Boys Brigade?

[RandomMusings]

Boys can join the brownies etc now as well I believe - not sure how many do though!

[ejaq]

I wanted to press 'reply' and say GOOD FOR YOU to our new principal. I went as far as opening the window...
I'm sure they're alright individually but having being on the receiving end of KK attitude en mass I think this is a damn good step by the Uni.
Woop!

[Freaker]

I wanted to press 'reply' and say GOOD FOR YOU to our new principal. I went as far as opening the window...

Do it, I've also heard of a few others who have responded to her! She is also doing this because she believes this is what students would like to see done, so I'm sure she'll be very appreciative of any feedback.