"there is no denying that modern animal agriculture is cruel and that the brief lives of these animals are miserable and painful."
I rather resent this. My father was a traditional Scottish hill farmer. The animals were well treated and the landscape was as far removed from a factory setting as it is possible to be. Most of the animals that were not sold in their first year would live their entire lives on the farm as breeders.
Don't forget that domestic sheep and cattle were bred for food. they only exist because we eat them. If we stopped eating them, we would have to slaughter them to make way for more crops.
Incidentally (I think I once asked this on another thread), is it wrong to eat a starfish? Or a sea cucumber? Or numerous other animals that have no brains? What qualities do they have that make them worth more than a plant?
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Re:
by StrangeQuark on Fri Sep 24, 2004 9:42 am
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StrangeQuark
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Re:
by donnamatrix on Fri Sep 24, 2004 9:54 am
It seems that a few people on here don't know the real deal about what goes on in many abattoirs and factory farms. I was vegetarian and thought that as long as I bought free-range eggs then I was eating and living ethically. However, it turns out that the actual definition of 'free-range' in terms of what conditions the chickens have to be kept in is that there simply must be a hole large enough for a chicken to climb through in the wall of their barn. Often chickens cannot get to the hole, or are not strong enough to fight past the others to get outside. Some small farms are well run and their animals are relatively well looked after, but the majority of meat, cheese, milk and eggs that we buy from supermarkets is factory-farmed and the animals which supply it (against their will) do live underservedly painful lives. Being vegan is the only way to ensure that your diet does not bring unwarranted suffering upon innocent animals.
[s]"Those who claim to care about the well-being of human beings and the preservation of our environment should become vegetarians for that reason alone. They would thereby increase the amount of grain available to feed people elsewhere, reduce pollution, save water and energy, and cease contributing to the clearing of forests."
--Peter Singer[/s]
--Peter Singer[/s]
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donnamatrix
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Re:
by Prophet Tenebrae on Fri Sep 24, 2004 9:55 am
I wouldn't gouge out a chickens intestines because I'd be bad at it and I'm lazy.
I have to say I'm gaining more of an understanding as to why country folk are contempt-filled toward cityheads. You're pretty much saying their every waking hour is spent ensuring animals suffer.
I have to say I'm gaining more of an understanding as to why country folk are contempt-filled toward cityheads. You're pretty much saying their every waking hour is spent ensuring animals suffer.
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Prophet Tenebrae
Re:
by donnamatrix on Fri Sep 24, 2004 9:58 am
[s]Prophet Tenebrae wrote on 11:55, 24th Sep 2004:
I have to say I'm gaining more of an understanding as to why country folk are contempt-filled toward cityheads. You're pretty much saying their every waking hour is spent ensuring animals suffer.
Noone's saying that. As I said, most of the meat and animal products you buy don't come from a small, family-run farm somewhere in the country. They come from large warehouses where animals are treated like mini-factories and live crap lives to supply people with meat, eggs and dairy products. If animals lived happy, free lives and gave their flesh and products willingly, there wouldn't be as much or a problem with meat-eating and the consumption of animal products. Don't forget that eggs are intended to be baby chickens, and milk is only produced by the cow to feed her calf - it's not made for humans.
I have to say I'm gaining more of an understanding as to why country folk are contempt-filled toward cityheads. You're pretty much saying their every waking hour is spent ensuring animals suffer.
Noone's saying that. As I said, most of the meat and animal products you buy don't come from a small, family-run farm somewhere in the country. They come from large warehouses where animals are treated like mini-factories and live crap lives to supply people with meat, eggs and dairy products. If animals lived happy, free lives and gave their flesh and products willingly, there wouldn't be as much or a problem with meat-eating and the consumption of animal products. Don't forget that eggs are intended to be baby chickens, and milk is only produced by the cow to feed her calf - it's not made for humans.
[s]"Those who claim to care about the well-being of human beings and the preservation of our environment should become vegetarians for that reason alone. They would thereby increase the amount of grain available to feed people elsewhere, reduce pollution, save water and energy, and cease contributing to the clearing of forests."
--Peter Singer[/s]
--Peter Singer[/s]
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donnamatrix
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Re:
by Al on Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:07 am
Against their will? How do you know? Cows are, if you haven't noticed, considerably larger and stronger than humans. I don't see how a human could get such a large animal to do anything "against its will".
[hr]Life is too important to be taken seriously.
[hr]Life is too important to be taken seriously.
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Al
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Re:
by pfffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffft on Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:11 am
[s]LizBot wrote on 01:07, 24th Sep 2004:
The way you write gives the impression that these animals live a blissful life and then die a painless death. However, up to the point of slaughter, the animal has no doubt had to endure a lifetime of being crammed in close quarters with other animals, barely able to move about and go about its natural behaviour.
Yeah all those sheep closed in in fields and cows and pigs and those damn free range cjickens - what a crappy life.
Lets set them free in Africa where they can be rendered immobile by not being able to fend for themselves and then eaten alive by hyenas - thats much more eco friendly.
Pur lease. People can't distinguish between live animals and dead ones?! Wise up - I think most people would be alarmed if their sausages were still attached to the pig ok.
I buy free range eggs because no chickens have so far confided in me that they don't like laying eggs. I don't care about the pigs, cows and sheep because humans are omnivores and have the teeht needed to eat meat - further more they taste nice. If they din't taste nice maybe they aren't meant to be eaten. But they do.
In other countires they eat cats and dogs - good for them, maybe they keep cows. sheep and pigs as pets.
I don't beleieve in making their life any worse than it is but I also don't believe Babe was a true story.
In short, i dont feching care, as do most of the population of the world so showing pictures or whatever wont help your little crusade.
Human being were not born to live on supplements they were born into the food chain. I don't see any vegetarian lions about and those wild pigs sure as hell dont just settle for the vege side of their omnivorous diet.
Be vegan but don't preach to those who like cheese, who like milk, who like meat, who like god damn feching yogurts because with all things, in moderation they are good. Meat in excess is bad is it? try living on grass you eejit. Livein gon any one thing too much will kill you or drive you insane.
Eat what you god damn want to for gosds sake. Im drunk i dont care, pigs might be intelligent but if they were intelligent enough they wouldnt let us eat them.
Prolly al oad of spelling mistakes but i care not one jot.
The way you write gives the impression that these animals live a blissful life and then die a painless death. However, up to the point of slaughter, the animal has no doubt had to endure a lifetime of being crammed in close quarters with other animals, barely able to move about and go about its natural behaviour.
Yeah all those sheep closed in in fields and cows and pigs and those damn free range cjickens - what a crappy life.
Lets set them free in Africa where they can be rendered immobile by not being able to fend for themselves and then eaten alive by hyenas - thats much more eco friendly.
Pur lease. People can't distinguish between live animals and dead ones?! Wise up - I think most people would be alarmed if their sausages were still attached to the pig ok.
I buy free range eggs because no chickens have so far confided in me that they don't like laying eggs. I don't care about the pigs, cows and sheep because humans are omnivores and have the teeht needed to eat meat - further more they taste nice. If they din't taste nice maybe they aren't meant to be eaten. But they do.
In other countires they eat cats and dogs - good for them, maybe they keep cows. sheep and pigs as pets.
I don't beleieve in making their life any worse than it is but I also don't believe Babe was a true story.
In short, i dont feching care, as do most of the population of the world so showing pictures or whatever wont help your little crusade.
Human being were not born to live on supplements they were born into the food chain. I don't see any vegetarian lions about and those wild pigs sure as hell dont just settle for the vege side of their omnivorous diet.
Be vegan but don't preach to those who like cheese, who like milk, who like meat, who like god damn feching yogurts because with all things, in moderation they are good. Meat in excess is bad is it? try living on grass you eejit. Livein gon any one thing too much will kill you or drive you insane.
Eat what you god damn want to for gosds sake. Im drunk i dont care, pigs might be intelligent but if they were intelligent enough they wouldnt let us eat them.
Prolly al oad of spelling mistakes but i care not one jot.
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pfffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffft
OTHER VEGANS! HURRAY!
by KateBush on Fri Sep 24, 2004 1:31 pm
I'm a vegan...wheat free, too! Let's all meet up and eat vegan food! I would be very excited to meet some others! We could also, if anyone has a car, take turns to go to the rather fabulous health food shop on Commercial Street in duyndee where they do all sorts of interesting things much cheaper than the health food shop on market street here.
Also, we should go to Banns in Edinburgh--just off the royal mile and they cater for vegans too!
Vegans unite!
feel free to contact me at anytime! just email through my profile
Also, we should go to Banns in Edinburgh--just off the royal mile and they cater for vegans too!
Vegans unite!
feel free to contact me at anytime! just email through my profile
Intelligence can leap the hurdles which nature has set before us- Livy
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KateBush
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Re:
by mottthehoople on Fri Sep 24, 2004 1:39 pm
Ive paid attention to the arguments that killing animals is wrong, but they would kill us and eat us if they had the chance. Life is all about survival of the fittest. Humans need meat I know i tried being a vegetarian for a while, my complexion went pale and a felt really weak. Its not natural man. Fair enough i dont agree with mass consumption of shit meat like fast food. But if the meat is purley natural and is prepared well then it brings some enjoyment to my life. I also eat healthy food such as salad and fruit which everyone should do.
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mottthehoople
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Re:
by Prophet Tenebrae on Fri Sep 24, 2004 1:49 pm
[s]donnamatrix wrote on 11:58, 24th Sep 2004:
As I said, most of the meat and animal products you buy don't come from a small, family-run farm somewhere in the country.
Ok, when you start acting like that is actually true then we may have some point of common reference from which to continue discussion but until then, it seems entirely unproductive.
As I said, most of the meat and animal products you buy don't come from a small, family-run farm somewhere in the country.
Ok, when you start acting like that is actually true then we may have some point of common reference from which to continue discussion but until then, it seems entirely unproductive.
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Prophet Tenebrae
Re:
by KateBush on Sat Sep 25, 2004 3:01 pm
[s]Sided Pizza wrote on 17:06, 24th Sep 2004:
Why do you not eat wheat?
Because it's cruel to the wheat! Only joking, actually I'm allergic/ intolerant...
Why do you not eat wheat?
Because it's cruel to the wheat! Only joking, actually I'm allergic/ intolerant...
Intelligence can leap the hurdles which nature has set before us- Livy
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KateBush
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Re:
by donnamatrix on Mon Sep 27, 2004 7:02 pm
[s]Al wrote on 12:07, 24th Sep 2004:
I don't see how a human could get such a large animal to do anything "against its will".
[hr][i]Life is too important to be taken seriously.
[/i]
Do you seriously think that cows want to live in barns and be slaughtered? They are rounded up using pain and initmidation - it's not a cow and a human in a boxing ring or something. Humans are generally (I stress 'generally') smarter than animals, and are more able to act on their will, but I don't feel this should be used to cause harm to them.
By the way, thanks so much to everyone who signed up to Vegesoc at the Fayre yesterday - it was great to meet you all!
I don't see how a human could get such a large animal to do anything "against its will".
[hr][i]Life is too important to be taken seriously.
[/i]
Do you seriously think that cows want to live in barns and be slaughtered? They are rounded up using pain and initmidation - it's not a cow and a human in a boxing ring or something. Humans are generally (I stress 'generally') smarter than animals, and are more able to act on their will, but I don't feel this should be used to cause harm to them.
By the way, thanks so much to everyone who signed up to Vegesoc at the Fayre yesterday - it was great to meet you all!
[s]"Those who claim to care about the well-being of human beings and the preservation of our environment should become vegetarians for that reason alone. They would thereby increase the amount of grain available to feed people elsewhere, reduce pollution, save water and energy, and cease contributing to the clearing of forests."
--Peter Singer[/s]
--Peter Singer[/s]
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donnamatrix
- Posts: 34
- Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2004 4:17 pm
Re:
by donnamatrix on Mon Sep 27, 2004 7:11 pm
[s]Unregisted User pfffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffft wrote on 03:41, 24th Sep 2004:
Lets set them free in Africa where they can be rendered immobile by not being able to fend for themselves and then eaten alive by hyenas - thats much more eco friendly.
Why Africa? Can we not just set them free in their natural habitats? And we're talking about being compassionate here, not being eco-friendly (although that is a happy bi-product of veganism and vegetarianism).
I buy free range eggs because no chickens have so far confided in me that they don't like laying eggs. I don't care about the pigs, cows and sheep because humans are omnivores and have the teeht needed to eat meat - further more they taste nice. If they din't taste nice maybe they aren't meant to be eaten. But they do.
Chickens can't talk. But if I meet one that can type, I will be sure to get them to sign on here and 'confide' in you that they don't like living in barns and having their offspring taken from them. Let it be said though, if you're going to buy eggs free-range are definitely the best ones to get!
In short, i dont feching care, as do most of the population of the world so showing pictures or whatever wont help your little crusade.
To each their own. We're not trying to show you pictures, we're just telling the truth.
Human being were not born to live on supplements they were born into the food chain. I don't see any vegetarian lions about and those wild pigs sure as hell dont just settle for the vege side of their omnivorous diet.
Vegans and vegetarians eat food like everyone else, not supplements. It's perfectly easy to get all the nourishment you need from a completely animal-free diet. We do have the ability to eat meat, that's true, but we also have the ability to choose not to - lions do not.
Be vegan but don't preach to those who like cheese, who like milk, who like meat, who like god damn feching yogurts because with all things, in moderation they are good. Meat in excess is bad is it? try living on grass you eejit. Livein gon any one thing too much will kill you or drive you insane.
No-one's preaching. Dairy products are actually pretty bad for you health-wise, as is meat (fact).
Next time try to sober up before posting on here, otherwise you're at risk of sounding like an utter idiot.
Lets set them free in Africa where they can be rendered immobile by not being able to fend for themselves and then eaten alive by hyenas - thats much more eco friendly.
Why Africa? Can we not just set them free in their natural habitats? And we're talking about being compassionate here, not being eco-friendly (although that is a happy bi-product of veganism and vegetarianism).
I buy free range eggs because no chickens have so far confided in me that they don't like laying eggs. I don't care about the pigs, cows and sheep because humans are omnivores and have the teeht needed to eat meat - further more they taste nice. If they din't taste nice maybe they aren't meant to be eaten. But they do.
Chickens can't talk. But if I meet one that can type, I will be sure to get them to sign on here and 'confide' in you that they don't like living in barns and having their offspring taken from them. Let it be said though, if you're going to buy eggs free-range are definitely the best ones to get!
In short, i dont feching care, as do most of the population of the world so showing pictures or whatever wont help your little crusade.
To each their own. We're not trying to show you pictures, we're just telling the truth.
Human being were not born to live on supplements they were born into the food chain. I don't see any vegetarian lions about and those wild pigs sure as hell dont just settle for the vege side of their omnivorous diet.
Vegans and vegetarians eat food like everyone else, not supplements. It's perfectly easy to get all the nourishment you need from a completely animal-free diet. We do have the ability to eat meat, that's true, but we also have the ability to choose not to - lions do not.
Be vegan but don't preach to those who like cheese, who like milk, who like meat, who like god damn feching yogurts because with all things, in moderation they are good. Meat in excess is bad is it? try living on grass you eejit. Livein gon any one thing too much will kill you or drive you insane.
No-one's preaching. Dairy products are actually pretty bad for you health-wise, as is meat (fact).
Next time try to sober up before posting on here, otherwise you're at risk of sounding like an utter idiot.
[s]"Those who claim to care about the well-being of human beings and the preservation of our environment should become vegetarians for that reason alone. They would thereby increase the amount of grain available to feed people elsewhere, reduce pollution, save water and energy, and cease contributing to the clearing of forests."
--Peter Singer[/s]
--Peter Singer[/s]
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donnamatrix
- Posts: 34
- Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2004 4:17 pm
Re:
by Haunted on Mon Sep 27, 2004 10:12 pm
I dont think this has been covered yet (correct me if I'm wrong but i cant be arsed reading the whole thread).
Why should animals have rights???
Why shouldnt they be battery farmed and slaughtered against their will?
Its certainly not inhuman to do so. Why dont we all just enjoy the luxuries this earth has to offer?
Why should animals have rights???
Why shouldnt they be battery farmed and slaughtered against their will?
Its certainly not inhuman to do so. Why dont we all just enjoy the luxuries this earth has to offer?
Genesis 19:4-8
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Haunted
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