Advice for drinking in the union

[Guest]

I may have got the wrong end of the stick but it looks from the legislation referred to above that, subject to the statutory power of the occupier or manager to request that persons leave the premises, patrons should be permitted to finish their drinks within the 15 minute period discussed above even if the serving area is closed earlier than the latest time allowed under the licence.

The legislation provides that no person shall consume any alcoholic liquor in any licensed premises except during the permitted hours (s.54(1)). These permitted hours are set out in the statute and may be extendable. For simplicity’s sake, the standard 11pm end of permitted hours will be used here. By virtue of s. 54(5), licensed premises need not sell alcohol for the whole of these permitted hours, so the bar could certainly stop serving at 10.30pm, say.

Unfortunately for the poor bar-staff, s.54(3) provides that nothing in s.54(1) will “prohibit or restrict the consumption of alcoholic liquor in any premises at any time within fifteen minutes after the conclusion of the permitted hours in the afternoon or evening, as the case may be, if such liquor was supplied in those premises during the permitted hours […]”. Thus, if the patron purchases a pint of heavy at 10.25pm and the bar stops serving at 10.30pm, the fortunate patron will, strictly speaking, be within his rights to nurse said pint all the way through until 15 minutes after the conclusion of the permitted hours, i.e. 11.15pm in this example.

Of course, in the real world the occupier or manager will have requested the drinker to vacate the premises but, as was pointed out above, continuing to exercise this right unilaterally risks ruining the goodwill and customer loyalty of a business. The police were correct to say that not granting the statutory “finishing-up time” is “highly unreasonable” rather than illegal. However the report of this conversation neglects to mention at all that there is a statutory basis for finishing up, which is rather remiss and could be misleading.

I would be interested to hear Cellar Bar’s views on this.

[rubbermuffin]

Does anyone else think mr groovy is maybe not suited to bar work seeing as he doesn't like handling money, customers or working late?

[hr]'When I was young PC meant Police Constable / Now I can't seem to tell the difference'

[Rectalprobe]

[s]rubbermuffin wrote on 15:16, 11th Feb 2005:
Does anyone else think mr groovy is maybe not suited to bar work seeing as he doesn't like handling money, customers or working late?


Hey the groovmeister is suited to work behind the bar. He is like me behind there - hard working, good at his job and unwilling to put up with cockends like you!!!!!!


[hr]
"Well i heard my sis say that whenever she had a prick in her hand she puts it in cider"

[Steveo]

[s]rubbermuffin wrote on 15:16, 11th Feb 2005:
Does anyone else think mr groovy is maybe not suited to bar work seeing as he doesn't like handling money, customers or working late?


Haha - true.

[hr]
[s]Strangers passing in the street....by chance two seperate glances meet[/s]

[flarewearer]

[s]Rectalprobe wrote on 15:25, 11th Feb 2005:
[s]rubbermuffin wrote on 15:16, 11th Feb 2005:[i]
Does anyone else think mr groovy is maybe not suited to bar work seeing as he doesn't like handling money, customers or working late?


Hey the groovmeister is suited to work behind the bar. He is like me behind there - hard working, good at his job and unwilling to put up with cockends like you!!!!!!
[/i]

why should we have to put up with cockend staff in the union like you?

[hr]
...We sing of landscape and memory and the urgency to do it now; in the street and in the fields...

[Rectalprobe]

[s]flarewearer wrote on 16:09, 11th Feb 2005:
[s]Rectalprobe wrote on 15:25, 11th Feb 2005:[i]
[s]rubbermuffin wrote on 15:16, 11th Feb 2005:[i]
Does anyone else think mr groovy is maybe not suited to bar work seeing as he doesn't like handling money, customers or working late?


Hey the groovmeister is suited to work behind the bar. He is like me behind there - hard working, good at his job and unwilling to put up with cockends like you!!!!!!
[/i]

why should we have to put up with cockend staff in the union like you?

[hr]
...We sing of landscape and memory and the urgency to do it now; in the street and in the fields...
[/i]
(A) because i havew a job and you dont
(B) because you are a twat!


[hr]
"Well i heard my sis say that whenever she had a prick in her hand she puts it in cider"

[Bread Roll]

[s]Rectalprobe wrote on 17:15, 11th Feb 2005:



(A) because i havew a job and you dont
(B) because you are a twat!





How nice.

[groovy]

I got laid last night, how about you guys?

[flarewearer]

[s]Rectalprobe wrote on 17:15, 11th Feb 2005:

(A) because i havew a job and you dont
(B) because you are a twat!


(A) i do have a job
(B) that may be but you don't find me moaning and whining about how the job I am paid to do and the people i am paif to serve seriously inconveniences my life

[hr]
...We sing of landscape and memory and the urgency to do it now; in the street and in the fields...

[spark]

Having worked for about 6 years in a shop has made me (despite really liking the job) lower my views on human nature. People can be shit and easily choose the faceless service staff in any business as a target to release their frustrations and anger on.

Nevertheless, the job typically weeds out pretty quickly pple not suited for the job, albeit some nasties escape the net occasionally. So, the ones on the job generally take a certain level of bad manners/behaviour from customers as a given and frustration from long waits at busy times is indeed understandable. I draw the line & refuse to serve customers that insult me personally etc and have two personal favourites to add to the list of finger snapping etc:
poking/touching me without saying a word first, and whistling - these never get a good responce. The servant who can be kicked around attitude doesn't work. You get paid for the job but doing your job well has nothing to do with accepting to be trated like a 2nd class citizen. So equal respect & manners work for both roles.

I must add that i do pay with coppers/small coins when it doesn't take ages for me to count them and if the sum is then exact. Money it is, after all.

[rob 'f*ck off' wine boy]

I have just been experimenting with petroleum jelly and bananas.

[David Bean]

[s]Unregisted User wrote on 13:15, 11th Feb 2005:
Unfortunately for the poor bar-staff, s.54(3) provides that nothing in s.54(1) will “prohibit or restrict the consumption of alcoholic liquor in any premises at any time within fifteen minutes after the conclusion of the permitted hours in the afternoon or evening, as the case may be, if such liquor was supplied in those premises during the permitted hours […]”. Thus, if the patron purchases a pint of heavy at 10.25pm and the bar stops serving at 10.30pm, the fortunate patron will, strictly speaking, be within his rights to nurse said pint all the way through until 15 minutes after the conclusion of the permitted hours, i.e. 11.15pm in this example.


I wouldn't draw that inference. Instead, I read it such that the law won't prohibit people from drinking in licensed premises up until fifteen minutes after the statutory closing time, but makes no statement about whether or not the bar owner/operator has the right to expel people from the premises before this time has arrived. I suspect the most likely legal position to be that the customer has the automatic right to a 15-minute grace period after the bar has been closed, irrespective of whether it closes at the last legally allowable time, but nothing you have cited shows the law taking any position on the matter whatsoever.

Also, the reason why the debate between the barstaff and the punters keeps going round in circles is that the two sides aren't engaging with one another properly. The barstaff are requesting that people be polite, and the punters are saying they shouldn't complain as it's their job, but the real issue for me is that irrespective of what the bar staff are being paid to do, they deserve respect and politeness as people. I read the initial post as educational, rather than complaining. Groovy simply wanted to let people know how they should be expected to behave at a bar, and for me there is nothing more unreasonable about this than it is to expect someone attending Ascot, the House of Lords or a garden party at Buckingham Palace to acquaint himself with the appropriate ettiquette for the occasion, and then follow it.

[hr]
"Fiat justicia ruat coelum (let justice be done though the heavens may fall)" - Judge James Horton (family motto)

[johness]

I <3 David Bean.

[hr][s]oh make me a red cape, I want to be superman.[/s]

[Grandpa]

This is just a rant isn't it. Come on, whoever heard of totally sensible drinkers....especially here, I mean HOW many fights have we had outside the union this year?????????????? (not that this is really relevent, but I'm sure you understand me).

Your advice is, I assume good natured, but I find it condescending, belittling and just a touch self centred to find you asking your patrons if they will please help you do your job.

Apart for points 4 and 5 which, I assume, the vast majority would agree are just elements of common courtesy (apart maybe for french finger clickers that is (just a joke, don't get carried away now) the rest of your points display a lack of patience for the customer. For example: "6) Please don't pay your entire order with 5p's and 2p's. Again, it slows down service for you and everyone else." Yes, it may well slow down your speed of service which I must add is perfectly adequate although the decision to use half a bar on quiet nights is ridiculous as you're not saving any money as the pumps and coolers work 24/7 regardless, and it makes the bar seem unwelcoming to be told that you wont get served 'over there' to quote one employee of said establishment. As I was saying, it may well slow down your speed of service, but you are, I would suggest, lazy towards the notion of counting small change - after all, it reamains, I understand, perfectly good legal tender.

If you cannot handle having to wait for people to organise their money, finish their drinks (10 minutes is a pitifull amount of time to drink up in) just so you can get to bed, or for people to present legal tender infront of you (does it really matter if you are handed the money or are presented with it? No, of course not: the money is in the till, and ultimately, that is ALL that matters. Not being able to handle this really does show a lack of mental ability to deal with alcohol induced people, exactly the sort of people you will find in a BAR, and I fittingly suggest you should review your own state of happiness with your current employment (I assume you ARE a member of the bar staff).

A member of staff is paid to do a job, and NOT to tell the customer how to make life easier for him or herself. You will understand, iff one day you are in a position to be hierarchically placed above a staff team; in charge of people in a profesional capacity.

I know a certain person who has worked for the past six years, last year not included, in the service sector, This person was at times of similar disposition to your good self. This person had to learn, the HARD way (i.e. by doing) how to deal with each and every situation which might arise. They did not, however, openly display their feelings of how the customer could improve their, for want of a better phrase, 'service reception experience'. Really, what absolute rubbish. What complete and utter nonsense to ask your drunk customers to re-organise themselves for you. It is their money you are being paid with. It is their money they are spending. Let them do it how they wish, not how pleases you.

It sounds to me as if you really don't like your job. I suggest a course in job alleviation. I'll make it easy for you: QUIT while you still have your sanity. It sounds as if you have what is commonly known in the trade as ''people fatigue''. Be wary of how you wish your customer to be as I think on many occasions they just simply dont care, let me put that differently: they are just simply (willingly?) unconscious of 'the plight of the bartender'. Again, the customer is not their to make your life any easier and unless one is openly and obviously rude to you then I really do think that you have no reason to feel wronged that there is legal tender in front of you but not in your hand. Maybe I should be offended that you do not HAVE to pass me my drink to my hand, but instead opt for the easier placing it in fromt of me option.

The distinction between 'rude' and 'drunk' must be remembered. One's way of carrying oneself will undoubtedly change as one increases one's intake of alcohol. The judgement (of which the bartender has no right to make) as to whether obscure actions are rude or 'drunk' in character is one best left to serious violations, and bouncers.

The old adage of ''the customer is always right'' is, I believe, precedent to your attempts at 'job alleviation'.

I, sir, remain your ever willing and ready customer and would urge you well to remember it.

[Grandpa]

[s]i_eat_pants wrote on 10:59, 11th Feb 2005:
But hey its not just the bar staff! in fact id say the bar staff have it easy compared to us glass collecters.. ok so here are some little tips of my own:

1: if u see us pathetically attempting to blance 60 glasses at once please try and get out the way... if we drop them all then ull have nothing to drink out of

2: in our language "excuse me" means "get the fuck out of my fucking way u fucking arrogant bastard" and if u dont we'll set sam on you

3: um.. oh yeh... glasses are NOT ashtrays... we DO have ashtrays .. u just have to get off ur lazy ass to get one.

4: if you find ur half finished drink gone... it wasnt us it was the evil drink stealing monkey that lives in the slop buckets

and for those people who said "its ur job u get paid either take the shit or quit"... feck off.. even if i didnt work in a bar or such like id not give people who did half the shit that some ppl do... theres no point in it...




And you are full of the proverbial.


[hr]
Da mihi sis bubulae frustrum assae, solana tuberosa in modo gallico fricta, ac quassum lactatum coagulatum crassum - Give me a hamburger, french fries, and a thick shake
NOW goddamit

[ram39]

In the UK it's illegal to sell alcohol to someone who suspected to be drunk anyway

[Bonnie]

Do it a lot.

{I'm obviously just kidding, because of all the responsible drinking stuff.)

[groovy]

[s]Grandpa wrote on 00:46, 12th Feb 2005:
This is just a rant isn't it. Come on, whoever heard of totally sensible drinkers....especially here, I mean HOW many fights have we had outside the union this year?????????????? (not that this is really relevent, but I'm sure you understand me).

Your advice is, I assume good natured, but [i]I find it condescending, belittling and just a touch self centred to find you asking your patrons if they will please help you do your job.

Apart for points 4 and 5 which, I assume, the vast majority would agree are just elements of common courtesy (apart maybe for french finger clickers that is (just a joke, don't get carried away now) the rest of your points display a lack of patience for the customer. For example: "6) Please don't pay your entire order with 5p's and 2p's. Again, it slows down service for you and everyone else." Yes, it may well slow down your speed of service which I must add is perfectly adequate although the decision to use half a bar on quiet nights is ridiculous as you're not saving any money as the pumps and coolers work 24/7 regardless, and it makes the bar seem unwelcoming to be told that you wont get served 'over there' to quote one employee of said establishment. As I was saying, it may well slow down your speed of service, but you are, I would suggest, lazy towards the notion of counting small change - after all, it reamains, I understand, perfectly good legal tender.

If you cannot handle having to wait for people to organise their money, finish their drinks (10 minutes is a pitifull amount of time to drink up in) just so you can get to bed, or for people to present legal tender infront of you (does it really matter if you are handed the money or are presented with it? No, of course not: the money is in the till, and ultimately, that is ALL that matters. Not being able to handle this really does show a lack of mental ability to deal with alcohol induced people, exactly the sort of people you will find in a BAR, and I fittingly suggest you should review your own state of happiness with your current employment (I assume you ARE a member of the bar staff).

A member of staff is paid to do a job, and NOT to tell the customer how to make life easier for him or herself. You will understand, iff one day you are in a position to be hierarchically placed above a staff team; in charge of people in a profesional capacity.

I know a certain person who has worked for the past six years, last year not included, in the service sector, This person was at times of similar disposition to your good self. This person had to learn, the HARD way (i.e. by doing) how to deal with each and every situation which might arise. They did not, however, openly display their feelings of how the customer could improve their, for want of a better phrase, 'service reception experience'. Really, what absolute rubbish. What complete and utter nonsense to ask your drunk customers to re-organise themselves for you. It is their money you are being paid with. It is their money they are spending. Let them do it how they wish, not how pleases you.

It sounds to me as if you really don't like your job. I suggest a course in job alleviation. I'll make it easy for you: QUIT while you still have your sanity. It sounds as if you have what is commonly known in the trade as ''people fatigue''. Be wary of how you wish your customer to be as I think on many occasions they just simply dont care, let me put that differently: they are just simply (willingly?) unconscious of 'the plight of the bartender'. Again, the customer is not their to make your life any easier and unless one is openly and obviously rude to you then I really do think that you have no reason to feel wronged that there is legal tender in front of you but not in your hand. Maybe I should be offended that you do not HAVE to pass me my drink to my hand, but instead opt for the easier placing it in fromt of me option.

The distinction between 'rude' and 'drunk' must be remembered. One's way of carrying oneself will undoubtedly change as one increases one's intake of alcohol. The judgement (of which the bartender has no right to make) as to whether obscure actions are rude or 'drunk' in character is one best left to serious violations, and bouncers.

The old adage of ''the customer is always right'' is, I believe, precedent to your attempts at 'job alleviation'.

I, sir, remain your ever willing and ready customer and would urge you well to remember it.
[/i]

Thanks, etc.

[morn_69]

[s]i_eat_pants wrote on 10:59, 11th Feb 2005:
But hey its not just the bar staff! in fact id say the bar staff have it easy compared to us glass collecters.. :P ok so here are some little tips of my own:

1: if u see us pathetically attempting to blance 60 glasses at once please try and get out the way... if we drop them all then ull have nothing to drink out of

2: in our language "excuse me" means "get the fuck out of my fucking way u fucking arrogant bastard" and if u dont we'll set sam on you ;)

3: um.. oh yeh... glasses are NOT ashtrays... we DO have ashtrays .. u just have to get off ur lazy ass to get one.

4: if you find ur half finished drink gone... it wasnt us it was the evil drink stealing monkey that lives in the slop buckets

and for those people who said "its ur job u get paid either take the shit or quit"... feck off.. even if i didnt work in a bar or such like id not give people who did half the shit that some ppl do... theres no point in it...

:P


5: When we ask you to move from an area, dont just move for 2 seconds... [/b] FUCKING MOVE OUT OF THE WAY PERMANENTLY [/b] especially around the main bar slop trays (the big silvery box thingy)

6: DONT STAND AT THE ENTRANCE TO THE BAR! The glass crates are heavy (esp if you are carrying 2) and having to maneuver round a people obstacle course is not fun!

[hr]
A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.

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[flarewearer]

7: dont even THINK ABOUT coming into the union and ordering a drink and spending money and paying our wages, it seriously fucking inconveniences us don't you know

[hr]...We sing of landscape and memory and the urgency to do it now; in the street and in the fields...