Getting rid of short loan bookings

[Griggsy]

Yes please do quote what people have said. It was a horrific comment saying that they're not getting rid of the short loan system, just the booking system. The booking system is what makes the short loan system works. Moreover, if they were to get rid of it, there would be certain times when there would be a mad rush for books and other times hwen demand is dead.

Is this the idea of the new Librarian himself? If it is, then someone royally screwed up employing him

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'I run wild in the shadowy jungle of erotic adventures.'

[ascii]

Ben - does this apply to the maths/physics library as well, or just the main one? As we don't have any self issue machines, there isn't the same issue of incompatibility.

I'm busy Tuesday night, so I can't attend the meeting, but I'd like to add to the general consensus here that I think that this is a bad idea which punishes people who are organised enough to plan when they want to borrow short loan books.

[ascii]

gah! Double post.

[Ben Reilly]

I'm really not sure. That's a good question for somebody to ask on Tuesday night.

[Sid]

I saw the posters, but can someone please confirm where and when this meeting is.

Our library is just pathetic. And now to top it all off they're loosing the booking system. Do they realise that they would be discriminating against certain students by doing this? First of all, students with disabilities. Let them go through the hassle of getting to the library to find that the books they need aren't there. This also applies to students who commute. I have a friend who commutes, her classes only require her to be here one day a week, so when she needs books she books them online and comes through to pick them up. If she can't book them, it's a waste of £7 on buses if she gets here and the books she needs are gone. In light of commuting students the short-loan system is just a disaster for them full stop.

[Jono]

Hmm... tricky.

On the one hand the booking system is good because it lets you plan your time in advance. It helps studends living far out from the center of town so that they don't waste a trip.

On the other hand its got some flaws. A book in high demand can be backlogged for days at a time with back to back bookings. In addition it allows some people to abuse the overnight and weekend loopholes.



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Don't mention the Nazi's!

[Sid]

I see your point, however, I really feel that the short loan system needs a complete make-over anyway. And if a book is in high demand the library should have a sufficient number of copies. And lets face it they can afford it. How many people get fines from short loans? Quite a lot, not very many students can get to the library before ten, and it's not that students are lazy or anything like that. Some people just aren't morning people, being a student gives you the flexibility to work when you want.

The library here needs big changes.

Quoting Jono from 21:56, 20th Mar 2006
Hmm... tricky.

On the one hand the booking system is good because it lets you plan your time in advance. It helps studends living far out from the center of town so that they don't waste a trip.

On the other hand its got some flaws. A book in high demand can be backlogged for days at a time with back to back bookings. In addition it allows some people to abuse the overnight and weekend loopholes.



[hr]

Don't mention the Nazi's!

[maenad]

Why does it matter if SL bookings are incompatible with the self-issue machines? Do I assume from that that they are getting rid of SL staff and making us take SL books out through those machines? Very bad idea. I love self-issue but what happens when they break? Not to mention the queues at 5pm every day.

And I agree getting rid of the booking system would be an awful mistake. Some changes need to be made - the computerised system has been screwed up all semester, and I'm not sure about the 'half hour leeway' thing - that means it's possible that a book could be sitting on the shelf for an hour until the person picks it up. But getting rid of booking altogether? No. I plan my essays and always book the books I'll need. I don't have time to stand around the SL section waiting for a book.

I'll definitely be there tomorrow, and not just because Ben Reilly's sent me about 50 emails about it .

ETA: The meeting is at 7pm in Lower Parliament Hall on South Street tomorrow (21st).

[Ben Reilly]

Sorry if it appears to be a bit ott with the emails, but the only people who got more than one just about it were class reps, and they only got so many because I wanted them to make announcements in class, etc.

If I could have worked out how to, I would have not sent them the general email about it as well.

[sabra_girl]

There's not much that can be done about overnight loans but I agree that the weekend loophole is a bit of a joke, especially when a lot of essays are due on Mondays. Perhaps that's something that could be addressed?

[hr]

"There are not very many desires in life which we can actually meet. For instance, 'I want to meet the love of my life'. Probably not today! But 'I want a cup of coffee.' That I can do!" Chris Thile (Nickel Creek)

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[sabra_girl]

Just bumping this to keep people looking at it.

Don't mind me...

[hr]

"There are not very many desires in life which we can actually meet. For instance, 'I want to meet the love of my life'. Probably not today! But 'I want a cup of coffee.' That I can do!" Chris Thile (Nickel Creek)

IMAGE:img360.imageshack.us/img360/114/infosiggy23vz.gif

[Lyeta]

So how did the forum go tonight if anyone went?

Just a note on some of the posts above, I don't see a problem with any aspect of the short loan booking system. Quite simply it rewards people who are organised, efficient and can be bothered to get their arses out of bed in the morning. I don't see what is wrong with that. I will admit the inflexibility in bring books back for 9am is a bit of a bitch if you have taken short loans out over Christmas vacation and can't make it back up to St. Andrews for that time in the morning, but other than that...

[The Dude]

Quoting Lyeta from 22:00, 21st Mar 2006
So how did the forum go tonight if anyone went?

Just a note on some of the posts above, I don't see a problem with any aspect of the short loan booking system. Quite simply it rewards people who are organised, efficient and can be bothered to get their arses out of bed in the morning. I don't see what is wrong with that. I will admit the inflexibility in bring books back for 9am is a bit of a bitch if you have taken short loans out over Christmas vacation and can't make it back up to St. Andrews for that time in the morning, but other than that...

I did like the guy's openness to take criticism but like with all things with this university, it seems that it all comes down to money of which there is simply not enough. Funny fact though, apparently there was originally a three plan which would have had the library expanded all the way down to the scores by now. Got to love how the university decided against implementing that one.

[maenad]

According to the librarian there are plans to completely redo level two over the next couple of years. Plans that are definitely going to happen too! I thought he answered questions well although when it came to resources there was a lot of, 'Well, we just don't have the money'. I doubt everything mentioned will come to fruition. He also made the point that each department manages their own book budget so you need to see them if you feel there's a shortage in your subject.

He only came unstuck on short loan bookings - at first I thought he was saying they definitely weren't getting rid of the booking system, but then a girl brought up the point again (was that someone from ere?) and he dodged round her point about people who live out of town relying on the booking system. He kept saying the booking system was inefficient and didn't work, but I got the feeling he was very keen on getting rid of it rather than attempting to make it better. He was big on SL self-issue - I did wonder if we couldn't have self-issue out of hours, so that people could take books out later on but they could still be booked up until 5pm or something, but they ran out of time for questions.

Ben, will student reps get an email about the library student committee meeting or whatever it's called? I'd like to go because I think the issue of the booking system needs to be discussed more. I'm not convinced it's been thought through enough. My department is small so I think I have less of a problem with books than others, but if I really need a book, does the librarian expect me to stand in SL for four hours waiting for someone to return it?

[emzn]

I was the one who tried to get him to engage with SL booking. He completely shirked the point first time round with the Q from the guy behind me, so that's why I just came out with it.

He doesn't seem to understand how much disadvantaged, disabled, students with families, students living out of St Andrews (ie. Cupar and beyond) rely on a particular book being available at a time to suit THEM.

The library books are bought by our departments to enable the less well off amoungst us to have the same opportunites as those with enough money to buy every text book. Abandoning electronic booking, the BEDROCK of the short loan system, goes against everything the 'library' stands for!

[cberry]

He did dodge a straight answer on the SL issue, however this is what I came away thinking. He dislikes the SL system not because it is a completely failed system, but because it is a relatively poor stop-gap to a problem. He wants to move as many SL books as possible to e-books, which can be used by all similtaniously. Books currently on SL will either remain on SL or moved to e-books, which is a practical, long-term solution to the problem.

[Ben Reilly]

Quoting maenad from 22:28, 21st Mar 2006
Ben, will student reps get an email about the library student committee meeting or whatever it's called? I'd like to go because I think the issue of the booking system needs to be discussed more. I'm not convinced it's been thought through enough. My department is small so I think I have less of a problem with books than others, but if I really need a book, does the librarian expect me to stand in SL for four hours waiting for someone to return it?

All schools have been asked (via the Director of Teaching) to send somebody along to the meetings we've already had this year... I'll email all the class reps about it again tomorrow.

[Rufus]

Quoting cberry from 23:17, 21st Mar 2006
He did dodge a straight answer on the SL issue, however this is what I came away thinking. He dislikes the SL system not because it is a completely failed system, but because it is a relatively poor stop-gap to a problem. He wants to move as many SL books as possible to e-books, which can be used by all similtaniously. Books currently on SL will either remain on SL or moved to e-books, which is a practical, long-term solution to the problem.

Sounds like an excellent plan.

Also refreshing to read about a librarian actively encouraging e-books, rather than chaining themselves to the short loan shelves, glasses askew, yelling "Don't touch my babies".

[maenad]

Quoting Ben Reilly from 23:24, 21st Mar 2006

Quoting maenad from 22:28, 21st Mar 2006
Ben, will student reps get an email about the library student committee meeting or whatever it's called? I'd like to go because I think the issue of the booking system needs to be discussed more. I'm not convinced it's been thought through enough. My department is small so I think I have less of a problem with books than others, but if I really need a book, does the librarian expect me to stand in SL for four hours waiting for someone to return it?

All schools have been asked (via the Director of Teaching) to send somebody along to the meetings we've already had this year... I'll email all the class reps about it again tomorrow.

Thanks - I've only been a rep since the start of this semester.

I'm sceptical about ebooks, but I think that's because I'm a classicist. Our library isn't even on the fricken computer ;-P. And what do we do if they abolish the booking system and the books *aren't* available online? From what he said I didn't think publishers were keen on electronic versions.

Oh, and we're getting new carpets. I'm looking forward to the 'informal seating' too as it would be nice to have somewhere more casual to crash when I live outside of town. Levels 3 and 4 must be kept as quiet zones though. I didn't think much of his assertion that academics want a traditional library and students want to be able to talk and work in groups. Hey, I'm a student, and I need to work in silence and *loathe* groupwork.

[emzn]

Geography is not a subject that can easily be put into e-books. Apart from the fact that each monster book has well over 500 pages nicely placed out with text and corresponding diagrams (as any science subject) many of the publishers have tried corresponding CDs to their books. They don't bother anymore simply because students don't like learning the material off a computer for hours on end with some american lady talking you through each diagram.

You cannot replace physical books as easily as just saying "e-books are the answer!". Many science students study with a number of books all at once, comparing an explaination in one book with one in another.A pile of books on your left, a few articles strewn across your bed.

I personally get bored reading one article online, whilst I can read many a time in paper form. I ask you all this...

Do you think that whilst we will be loosing the photocopier as we know it, will we just end up printing as much out at home?