3 things that would improve the union are...

[beanie_anne]

Not sure if anyone's said these but:
- a comprehensive notice board in the foyer for societies, events, etc. rather than hiding it away on the first floor at the general office where many students never need to go.
- a full list of how you can hire out rooms in the union and how much must be made on bar (if applicable) would be rather useful for fledging societies.

I can only think of two really. I like the union as it is just now.

[hr]

"Enough is Enough...I've had it with these snakes"

[Rennie]

Firstly, I'd just like to point out this is the only post I'm going to put up here - I've been lurking but I just can't deal with the sheer volume of idiocy on the Sinner any more (not including some people, including exnihilo, Al, harmless loony, munchingfoo, Cain and some others I've forgotten).

So, the Union is failing to get enough students in/not catering for the student body/wants to have more attended events. I'm sure this has been a recurring theme since about oh, 2004. When I started at St Andrews in 2001 the Union was packed most nights throughout the term. Can't really remember what was done differently, but I'm sure some of the older posters will know.

I ran for a position at the Union on the basis that I wanted change, I wanted to be a bit different, and I wanted to try and turn the Union from a youth club into a real business that caters for its customers and provides what they want. It didn't work, probably because of other factors to be fair.

However, while I've been at St Andrews, I've ran my own successful events (with some of the highest ticket prices - which indicates to me that people must have really wanted to come) and also had success at providing services to students.

As mentioned in this thread, the majority of full time staff at the union are completely set in their ways. I'll add that they hate students, they hate their jobs, they hate doing anything that's innovative, and they are thoroughly miserable fuckers. And it seems that as soon as the sabs are elected, they turn into the same people. Moaning about rules and regulations and never actually getting anything done. I'm not saying break them, but find a way round them.

The idea of hiring a club manager was mentioned about 2 years ago by Alex Muir, I'm sure the thread is still on this board somewhere. Good idea, well worth investigating more but because it will put sabs out of a job, it won't happen. If the full time staff actually got off their arses and thought about it, rather than running their fucking shitty youth club environment on their 25-30k a year (Bruce and Phil), while they pay the other porters on minimum wage. Which is about £180 a week after tax. Pathetic, no wonder they don't like working there.

So, my three things to sort out the union:

1) Sack Bruce and Phil and get some people willing to make change, with business sense, that like students and who have an idea of how to run a club.

2) Spend the £1m that's just sitting in an account to make the union more modern (toilets, Beatons, general maintainence, etc, etc...) and not be scared to spend it. The fact is, it's just sitting there making interest, Take a risk and stop the decline of the Union.

3) Look at other unions/clubs/bars that are successful. And do what every other successful place does - copy it. Links to point 2 really, you'll need money, but if the demographic of St Andrews is the same as the place you're stealing the ideas from - I would say it's 95% likely to work.

EDIT: Forgot to add - 1) will never happen, as Campbell will never get off his fat arse and sack Bruce and he's the only one who can. The union = fucking useless. Now that I'm gone, I actually hope it goes so close to bankrupcy that Bruce and Phil get made redundant.

[Tryptophan]

Quoting Rennie from 22:19, 16th Oct 2006

oh, the bunker thing...the one that got left with 36 hours to get and rig equipment? and just how long was the PA out of action for on the night? Supposedly there was another event that faded into the mist on 'licensing' grounds...I thought you were supposed to be the master rulebender when it came to putting on class-1 events?

The staff might appear a litle confrontational at times, but thats usually because they've ended up having to do other peoples jobs, the outgoings to the 'security services' not exactly having been a terribly beneficial use of funding in recent years. Its getting better now though, at last.

So you'd want to get rid of the people who organise events at the union, and hire in someone to....organise events at the union? Oookay then. As to "give the money to a promoter"...to do what? re-equip the venue after every last bolt has been pulled out by the union, pay for permantent operational staff and certifications? And how are you intending that both promoter and union gain revenue from the arrangement ( especially if the venue would have to sub-contract all its services from the union, unless they can convince s&s/she to run independent feeds), or are you just assuming that the venue will be handed over as is and everyone associated with it will just keep going as they are, even if the h&s regs wouldn't kill that idea from the start.

Btw, Have a look around at the unions and entertainments of some of the other universities, especially of the more central urban ones, you'll be hard pushed to find one thats as well equipped, especially given the size of the student population. Wish the youth clubs I used to go to were as well set up.

the whole _investment_ fund thing doesn't work that way though. It's not for throwing at pretty shiny stuff, it's there to supplememnt the income of the association. Supposed it does get spent...then what? hope that you've made the right gamble and all the students come flocking back? what if they don't?

I've been hearing this "maintenance of building fabric" argument throught this thread, and really thats the fault of the students responsible, if they had a little more respect and consideration for others in how they treated the facilities they wouldn't become financial sinkholes, would they.

and just to mix things up a bit more, a couple of things that might pan out if the energetics and costs run the right way :-

1) A ppo-CHP for winter, if you're going use a bunch of fuel to heat the place, at least do two useful things with it. Oh.. and please, please, please fix the thermal shunt valve on the v1 blower or just make it a normal tap...another year of heated bops because of an empty room in middle floor would just get a bit too silly.

2) If there isn't already, Powerfactor correction for the building...aside from all the switchmode gear in the main union, the PSU's in most of the moving heads and the wave shaping regulation in the racks won't help the loading.

3)A bunch of water recycling/auto-management stuff, seeing as that would kill two charges ( waste and fresh water...waste water being calculated from the fw feed under the assumption that feed=return), pull all the bulk water from a non-measured source means that it's no longer accounted in either input or output charges.

Again, I don't have the exact numbers for for this stuff, so it may or may not be viable...just to me it seems we should be tackling the excess outgoings of the building instead of just looking at how much more revenue can be extracted.

[Bonnie]

ask for a copy of the Union's annual report (available from the fine secretaries in the General Office on the middle floor).
You will see that the Union is not, in fact, a failing business.

There are far too many who would advocate the Union to increase surplus by decreasing costs-- and the representation/ welfare costs are what they're talking about. There are too many people that say the Union shouldn't fund societies either simply because they want a far more expensive univeristy department to run/ control them instead.

I disagree with you entirely.

What does the Union need:
1. more student involvement (I am seeing some innovative projects Lee is starting. I can't comment on how well they're being taken up because I'm not there to witness it but I can say that the descriptions are of new projects people can take advantage of from their Union's services).
2. more space for student groups/ theatre workshop/ all physical space requirements made into a sort of master list a few years back. Even if the space was from the University, the need is for it to be available to students and administered by staff who aren't pricks (not being a student anymore, i can now honestly say that some University staff are the most incompetant and selfish people I have ever known.)
3. a trainline: I know this is nutso and not something the Union has anyhting to do with, but it's what some of the crazy alumni say. I thought I'd join in. I almost think that our isolation is what makes St Andrews the way it is-- because we would otherwise get so bored out of our heads and kill each other, instead we eat Tunnock's Caramel Wafers, make films, and appreciate Asian music.

Quoting munchingfoo from 12:47, 12th Oct 2006
You know those fly on the wall documentaries where a failling business opens its doors to industry experts and they turn it around?

I think the union should apply to be on one of those.

[hr]

Tired Freudian references aside - your mother played my mighty skin flute like a surf crowned sea nymph trying to rouse Poseidon from his watery slumber!

[Bonnie]

Quoting exnihilo from 00:32, 13th Oct 2006
...
People have said that more advertising of non-regular events could not hurt.

People have spoken of their experience and of events and activities they have been involved in which worked well.
...
People have said that spending some money on new equipment and on improving services and facilities would be a good thing.


Your responses have been to say you don't know about the finances or won't say if you do.

That you think the bop is the be all and end all of what the Association is and does.

And now seem to be saying that not being on Ents equals not being allowed an opinion.

Amazing. And frightening. No wonder the Association's struggling.

I would not be surprised if a member of the Ents Crew were to be influenced by some, let's just say, more permanent fixtures working in the Union. Furthermore, an Ents Crew member may also have found out confidential information that they are not comfortable repreating. His/ Her job is not to spout finances and their information may have come from a biased source. I know that Ents work damn bloody hard... and thus they might not realise that their biased source is again influenced by another biased source.

'Tis the nature of the beast.

[Bonnie]

Quoting beanie_anne from 18:49, 16th Oct 2006
- a full list of how you can hire out rooms in the union and how much must be made on bar (if applicable) would be rather useful for fledging societies.

It's called the Societies Handbook. It says specifically that one must go see the Director of Events and Services.
There is a "pricing plan" but it can be adjusted so wildly that to print it is useless. [I'm not the DoES but I sometimes gave people breaks or found alternative routes to suit the society/ budget. Sometimes the best place to have an event IS somewhere else and I'd tell them that AFTER they saw me in person so that I got all the facts.] See Graeme in person.

[Bonnie]

I forgot.
3.5) regular (weekly) Union minivan driving certifications. Now it's done when a society needs it and sometimes there isn't time in the schedule to get a student all signed up to the van's insurance, and it takes time out of porter time. Schedule a regular time and alomst make it 'done' thing that every society sends at least one new person every semester down to do the drive around. If Union staff are worried that the van will be taken out so much that they can't use it for other Union work, then buy another van.

Have a fleet of vans. They will be used by societies and theatre groups, I swear.

[exnihilo]

Quoting Bonnie from 04:31, 17th Oct 2006
I would not be surprised if a member of the Ents Crew were to be influenced by some, let's just say, more permanent fixtures working in the Union.

Trust me, I know.

[harmless loony]

I was just about to post on here and point out Lee's recent changes but Bonnie beat me to it!

Like Bonnie, I'm not there to witness the success of the new classes but I think Lee has got it right in expanding the use of the Union and perhaps encouraging those people to come in who perhaps would never have considered popping in for anything. Smart move!

It would be nice if someone could give us an update on those classes here. Also I like the idea of encouraging students to share their skills and experiences with each other and to develop each other.

[Jono]

To Re-itterate my number two: The pink gun has now completely broken, as opposed to just shooting crooked. Someone repair the machine!!!

Oh, and sunday the ghost squad game also wasn't working either!

Also, short of the entire building collapsing, what possible emergency could nessecitate £1m?

[hr]

http://standrews.facebook.com/profile.php?id=37105376
Exclusive to The Sinnner, and all other forums.

[Tryptophan]

Quoting Bonnie from 04:23, 17th Oct 2006
ask for a copy of the Union's annual report (available from the fine secretaries in the General Office on the middle floor).
You will see that the Union is not, in fact, a failing business.

There are far too many who would advocate the Union to increase surplus by decreasing costs-- and the representation/ welfare costs are what they're talking about. There are too many people that say the Union shouldn't fund societies either simply because they want a far more expensive univeristy department to run/ control them instead.

I disagree with you entirely.

taking a guess that this unnamed comment was aimed at me, where did I say that staffing was a _waste_ ?


And if members of ents crew have been influenced by the permanent members of staff its most likely because they have proved repeatedly that they know what they are talking about, have a vast library of knowledge and experience of fields that are not taught within the union or university that are needed in running the venues, are usually available during working hours, actually know what we are taking about when we're organising events with them, don't drop sudden changes at the last minute before an event and will actually help where they can,
unlike a large proportion of the student officers or student lead commitees and user-groups. So given the choice between following the opinions of some one who knows what they are talking about and has been in position for many years vs one who has been in for a few months its not to hard to see which has more weight.

[Al]

Undoubtedly they should be listened to as far as the technical aspects of running events must be considered. However, there is a tendency among some of the members of the permanent staff to feel that they are in charge of the Union. This is not a new thing. Nor is it new that sometimes members of the permanent staff do their level best to frustrate the wishes of student officers.

And I feel it a little strange that someone who is - if your profile is up to date - a first year can so blithely reject what people with vastly more experience of how the Union operates have had to say on this thread while simultaneously claiming that the long service of some of the permanent staff gives their opinions added weight.

[RJ Covino]

It's also worth pointing out that some of the members of permanent staff don't sit on things such as the Association's Financial Executive, which has had led, at least once on this thread so far as I can tell, to some rather dodgy "facts" having been offered up about the Union's financial situation.

[hr]

http://www.ralphcovino.com

[jequirity]

3 Things that would improve the union

1) More Bops like last fridays one

2) More rugged toilet facilites that aren't broken every second day

3) Somehow increase the size of the main bar and Venue 2

[hr]

LEEERRRROYYYY!!!!

Andrew W K Day 9th of May

[exnihilo]

There were some ambitious proposals a good few years ago to move the representational functions out to a second site and make fuller use of the space in the main building - which would have entailed increasing the size of Venue 2 (and its bar) and opening more rooms to student societies. It also involved spending some money on providing equipment and facilities to make the rooms more functional and less simply empty boxes. But it came to nothing. Wonder why...

[Tryptophan]

Quoting Al from 12:20, 17th Oct 2006
Undoubtedly they should be listened to as far as the technical aspects of running events must be considered. However, there is a tendency among some of the members of the permanent staff to feel that they are in charge of the Union. This is not a new thing. Nor is it new that sometimes members of the permanent staff do their level best to frustrate the wishes of student officers.

And I feel it a little strange that someone who is - if your profile is up to date - a first year can so blithely reject what people with vastly more experience of how the Union operates have had to say on this thread while simultaneously claiming that the long service of some of the permanent staff gives their opinions added weight.

Probably because the last time I looked at my profile was when I signed up...somewhat more than 5 weeks ago as it would have been if I really was a first year.

exnihilo, that is starting to happen with the new recording studio/radio studio up on second floor.

[exnihilo]

Which is a good thing, and I'm pleased to hear it. But I was talking about something more structural, and more ambitious than fitting out one of the existing rooms differently. The building is actually surprisingly versatile internally.

You know and I know that the building is not adequate, it was designed for a far smaller student population and was never intended to cope with 7,000. Until we acquire a second site, or several satellites (there are always empty shops in town), we can't fully realise the Association's potential.

[Cain]

Quoting Rennie from 22:19, 16th Oct 2006
Firstly, I'd just like to point out this is the only post I'm going to put up here - I've been lurking but I just can't deal with the sheer volume of idiocy on the Sinner any more (not including some people, including exnihilo, Al, harmless loony, munchingfoo, Cain and some others I've forgotten).

I'm not an idiot; it's official. And neither are the rest of the

KING SINNERS!

Oh dear.

[hr]

I hold an element of surprise

[exnihilo]

Am I a King Sinner? I thought I was just an objectionable curmudgeon?

[Al]

I think Sinner Immortal is a much better thing to be. None of this King Sinner nonsense.