"Mother angry at secret abortion"

[hmmm]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/nott ... 709681.stm

A 14 year old girl had an abortion without her mothers consent or knowledge after talking it over with a school health worker. Her mother wasn't told, the law doesn't require that she is told.

After speaking to her mum the girl changed her mind apparently but it was too late. Whether or not her mum would have tried to persuade her was the reason she didn't want her to know is unknown. As is why a mother would want her 14 year old daughter to go through with her pregnancy.

More thoughts here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/nott ... 709681.stm

NB: this is not about whether or not abortion is right, should be illegal etc. Been there, done that. This is about whether or not the woman has a point - do you think it should be the law that a mother doesn't need to know? I thought it was fairly clear cut, the parents are only told if the person is assessed as being too emotionally imature to handle the decision by themself, just like your mum doesn't have to know if you go on the pill. This woman thinks otherwise - parents should always be told.

Thoughts?

[KateBush]

I still stand by what I said on this last night- the fact that the mother was not informed about a serious surgical procedure and required to give consent for the girl to have such an operation amounts to a failure of the health service to address the best interests of the young person.

Especially when parental consent is normally needed for any kind of procedure that requires anaesthetic. If you have your appendix removed, you need parental consent at that age. Surely the mother had a right to know?

I would say there would be exceptions to this--such as abuse, incest, etc, but if those things were not involved then the parents most definitely SHOULD have been told.
[hr]a red rose is not selfish because it wants to be red rose. It would be selfish if it wanted all the other flowers in the garden to be both red, and roses. -Oscar Wilde

[Happy-Go-Lucky]

I have raised my eyebrow somewhat about all the outrage about this. I pesonnally think it is right that the girl has the right to have the proceedure without parent knowledge. The whole idea of this kind of confidential system, was to try to prevent young people making silly mistakes. Denying them contraception doesn't stop them having sex, it stops them having safe sex, as they do it in secret instead. So I think the same applies to this. If a girl has an accident and falls pregnant, you should not be immediately picking up the phone to tell the parent. This would simply cause these pregnant teenagers to hide away, and possibly seek desperate methods like DIY-abortion. I am suspicious at this particular mother's motive. Yes I'm sure she's very cross her daughter got herself pregnant, and very upset that it resulted in a pregnancy which either way would have been a dramamtic and probably traumatising experience for her daughter. But I am rather bothered that it would appear that the mother dissaprooved of abortion. Am I to assume that she would have insisted her daughter had the baby whether she wanted it or not? The fact that the daughter chose to do this in secret should ring alarm bells that possibly this is because she had a highly controlling mother who would refuse her daughter from having an abortion.
I am imagining a senario where the daughter decides on her own she wants rid of it, but on her mother finding out, is bombarded with the mothers raving exclamations of how they could have coped and how immoral it is etc, leaving the daughter to give up and go with the mother's wishes.

But in the end, the girl is going to have to live with this for the rest of her life. A mother may huff and puff at the idea of her child giving up a baby, and believes it's something they can cope with. But it's not a simple case of getting by for a year or two. The daughter will have the burden for the rest of her life. Nobody should have the power to influence her decision, but her.

Yes, it is an unfortunate situation, but I think it is right that young people have the right to confidentiality. A child should be encouraged to talk to her parents, but if she doesn't want to, there is probably a reason for it.

[hr]"I would lay down my life for at least 2 brothers, or 8 first cousins"
-Haldane

[harmless loony]

But where do we draw the line on children's confidentiality? Is a 12 year old capable of making an informed decision without parental support? How about an 11 year old? or a 10 year old? Why is it ok for a parent to make a decision on life threatening surgery for a child but they have no say in the pregnancy issue?

Going back to what one of the panellists said last night - at the end of the day it's the parents who pick up the pieces and have to look after the child after the procedure.

I think we're going down a dangerous road by constantly advocating the rights and freedom of children but suppressing parents' rights and freedoms.

It's funny how the youth of this society have very little respect, commit more crimes then youth of any other decade and are generally abusive which all seems to have coincided with the point at which people started harping on about giving children the freedom to express themselves and do what they want. At the end of the day whether you like it or not there is a hierachy in life - not everyone is equal - parents are there to set the rules and guide their kids, it's not the job of the NHS, schools or any other organisation to interfere with this.

However, like one person has pointed out already - I have to seriously question the motives of the mother in this case. It appears that she is not bothered that her daughter got pregnant, she's just upset she wasn't told(!) Talk about setting your priorities!!!

[Neferet]

I agree with Happy-Go-Lucky completely about this. In addition, it's easy to see why she couldn't go to her mother who seems far more interested in her own rights and thinks nothing of splashing her daughters story across all the tabloids after she's just been through a highly emotional ordeal.

If a daughter has a good relationship with her mother that is always who she will go and talk to. If she feels unable to for whatever reasons then she is not going to be able to come to a good decision for herself with someone she feels uncomfortable with. The person she talked to was a health worker of some description who provided a neutral viewpoint and help.

There will always be cases where it would be a disaster for the parents to know (religious parents, strict parents etc) and in some cases dangerous for the person themself if there is bullying or abuse going on behind closed doors. Because of this it would always be unwise to have a blanket law that said all parents had the right to know. As it stands at the moment if you have open communication with your daughter then you should have no problems. Ultimately even if your daughter does speak to you it is still her decision anyway.

An abortion is unlike any other medical procedure in that it is one that the person can get in trouble for from their parents if they are against abortion for example or against sex before marriage or are just very strict. The advice given is always to encourage the person as much as you can to talk to their parents or their mum. If they still refuse then you have to accept that there may be a good reason why.

The mother needs to look at why her daughter felt unable to speak to her, not blame the schools, or the doctors or anyone but herself.

[strikethepose]

surely if the girl is mature enough to seek out the help from an appropriate health care worker, as she did, she is mature enough to make the decision to have an appropriate health-related procedure?

[hr]BOROMIR: Don't call me an idiot, dork.
LEGOLAS: This is no mere dork. This is your King. And my boyfriend.
Silence as entire COUNCIL stares at ARAGORN and LEGOLAS.
ARAGORN: (in Elvish) Great, Legolas. Just great.

[Bonnie]

This daughter feared her confidentiality being compromised so much and didn't trust her parents enough so that she had to seek counselling from the school. So what does the mother, who obviously has her daughter's best interests at heart, do when she finds out? Goes to the national press.
If the girl never felt betrayed before, she should do now.

[John Stewart]

At the end of the day, if the girl felt adult enough to partake in adult pleasures, then she should be adult enough to deal with the consequences thereof.

After all, what if her parents were catholic and refused her an abortion, even if the girl did not want to continue with the pregnancy? Whether the parents like it or not, the girl has sovereignty over her own body, and what may or may not be popping out of it in 9 months time...

[KateBush]

Such a way with words, John! You're wasted in Physics. You sohuld be doing English, I tell you.

[Rachy]

Maybe I'm missing something here, but was it not mentioned on Question Time yesterday that the girl was not going to be named?

Lo and behold, her mother ran off to the papers, gave her name, her daughter's name, her daughter's boyfriend's name, his mothers name, posed for pictures, told them the school name and the name of the outreach worker who helped the girl.

Hilariously it would seem that she failed to mention the abortion to her ex husband...the girls father. No wonder the girl in question didnt tell her mother, she obviously hasn't got the greatest home life or support system going for her.

It would be bad enough knowing for the rest of your life that you'd had an abortion, it must be a million times worse with the whole country, all your school friends and relatives knowing too.

[Manic23]

[s]KateBush wrote on 09:30, 14th May 2004:
I still stand by what I said on this last night- the fact that the mother was not informed about a serious surgical procedure and required to give consent for the girl to have such an operation amounts to a failure of the health service to address the best interests of the young person.

Especially when parental consent is normally needed for any kind of procedure that requires anaesthetic. If you have your appendix removed, you need parental consent at that age. Surely the mother had a right to know?

I would say there would be exceptions to this--such as abuse, incest, etc, but if those things were not involved then the parents most definitely SHOULD have been told.
[hr]a red rose is not selfish because it wants to be red rose. It would be selfish if it wanted all the other flowers in the garden to be both red, and roses. -Oscar Wilde




this is what I would say if I could be arsed typing it out

[hmmm]

The mother is now going to try and sue by going to the European Court of Human Rights to claim that HER rights were violated and the care staff invaded her family's privacy.

I still believe the same thing, for 14 year olds and over they should be encouraged heavily to inform their parents but making that the law would scare too many into seeking no advice at all and would put many in danger from their own families - remember not everyone grows up in the happy situation that no doubt many of us on this board experienced. 13 year olds and under I think the parents should be told unless the person has a good reason - family abuse, strictly religious parents, alcoholic/drug abusing parents etc so again it is not the law that the parents will for certain be told. This is because the number of 13 year olds and under who fall pregnant is far lower than the number of over 13 year olds so it would be easier to assess on a case to case basis. Also under 14 year olds are far more likely to want their Mum's support anyway. As I understand it this is the way the law works currently as most under 14 year olds are not thought to be mature enough to handle a decision on their own so parents are told unless there is a reason not to for the child's sake.


At the end of the day this woman has to stop blaming everyone she can but herself. The only people to blame are her as a parent and the girl herself (and yes the boyfriend as well). It might be harder to face but it would be far better if she did rather than trying to change a law that could put many in danger. At the moment the worst that can happen is someone makes the wrong decision, which is always a risk with abortion anyway. If the law changes the worst that can happen is self harm and suicide. A blanket law here has to err on the side of caution for the child, not err on the side of danger for the sake of the parents.

[tintin]

It's interesting to note that those countries with the greatest amount of anti teenage sex policies, those who try and suppress discussion of it and generally make sex a taboo subject (Britain and America) have the highest rate of teenage pregnancies in the developed world. Those like Sweden who encourage opennes and discussion of sex, including availibility of condoms etc, have the lowest.

This sort of situation with the 14 year-old would have been avoided if we as a society had a more tolerant attitude to sex and discussion of it. But it will take an enormous amount of campaigning to reach the level of those European countries where it is not really a taboo issue.

[hmmm]

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/focus/st ... 58,00.html

I hadn't even thought of it from that angle: should the parents be told if the child decides to keep the baby? On the one hand they are going to find out eventually, on the other what if they force the girl into having an abortion (through powerful parental persuasion) against her will or choice?

Oddly, while I think a 14 year old in most cases is capable of deciding to have an abortion, I don't know that them deciding to keep the baby is a good sign or not of their maturity, which is a deciding factor in telling parents or not.

Argh, the confusion. Suffice to say if I ever have a daughter - chastity belt

[Kimmie]

[s]KateBush wrote on 09:30, 14th May 2004:
I still stand by what I said on this last night- the fact that the mother was not informed about a serious surgical procedure and required to give consent for the girl to have such an operation amounts to a failure of the health service to address the best interests of the young person.

Especially when parental consent is normally needed for any kind of procedure that requires anaesthetic. If you have your appendix removed, you need parental consent at that age. Surely the mother had a right to know?

I would say there would be exceptions to this--such as abuse, incest, etc, but if those things were not involved then the parents most definitely SHOULD have been told.


Just wanted to point out that the girl didn't have any sort of surgery but took a couple of tablets, hence no anaesthesia.

[hr]
I don't mind what happens now and then, as long as you'll be my friend at the end.