The Christian Union

[Oirish_Martin]

I think, again, to give Christianity its due....a lot of the rules are there to actually help us. Odds are if you try and follow you will make a lot less shit for yourself and others. and if you really do believe that people without god are lost, then out of love for them, yes you really really want them to be christian as well!

but i will agree that over the years, these 2 things have twisted christianity into a religion, rather than a faith, one where you have to follow the rules and be overzealous in its dissemination.

and if you want a group for the sinners look at the name of this board! :p

[Mr Comedy]

Time for me to crash in again.

Now I have a few things to day, and I'm not going down a Christian fundamentalism line either today.

Some people would agree with the 'paedophile in heaven' scenario outlined earlier. I would like to say that from what I understand in the Bible, that may be true. I am not sure, and I would like to think that there would be something blocking them.
But I am no great theologian, and I will hold my hands up and say "I don't know".

Secondly, I would say that it is not only Christians who get into Heaven, and the Bible says this.

It says two things:
1) "Whoever believes in me shall get eternal life".
2) "I am a fair judge".

What about cot deaths?
What about people who have never heard about Jesus before?
I could see the argument for people who have heard and not believed, but others?
Not so sure.

Now I am going to step out on a limb here and if the CU wants to remove me from the Evangelism Committee, then so be it.

I don't think that only Christians go to Heaven. Now let me qualify this. I think that although there is a clear line of thought that Christians will be there. But others?
I don't know.
Someone in India has never heard of Christianity. But as he walks around, he tries to understand the world, and decides there must be a Something. Hinduism tells him that this is the product of multiple gods.
If he is in a different faith, what is the issue?
He sees the same things, yet has not heard of Christianity.

Let me regale you with a story.
There was a Christian pastor called Richard Wurmbrand who was imprisoned for preaching in Communist Romania.
He meets a Communist officer at one point, who is sure that there is a God, and desperately wants to meet him.
Richard Wurmbrand talks to him, and tells him the gospel story. The guy is uncontrollable when he learns that Jesus dies, but is elated when he hears that he rises again.
Two months later this guy is executed for professing faith.

Now, what if this chap had not met Wurmbrand?
Would he be able to go to Heaven?
I would like to think that he would.


However, if someone comes up to you and says "I have a God who can give you eternal life, and He will help you now if you want", I would suggest that it is worth
a) Thinking about
b) Investigating

Now, there is every chance that this chap may be wrong, and totally mad.
But if he is actually right, then that isn't a chance I believe is worth taking (flat out ignoring it).
I became a Christian because I did the same thing. I saw that I knew several people who believed it, and they didn't seem totally flipped. Somewhere, there was either a great truth or a cronic deception.
I checked it out in depth.

I have all the time in the world for someone who has checked it out and doesn't believe it. Please talk to me, I would love to hear why (and I promise I won't ram gospel down your throat).
But those who just dismiss it I will not give the time of day to, as they are just flippant and rude about something that is important to me.

One last point:
That monk thing is seriously cool. I like to do that. If we don't think about why we believe things, and reconcile that to other knowledge, then faith is founded on ignorance.
I like to do that in bible studies. When they all nod and go "uh-huh" (tacitly claiming that they are perfect), I always throw a spanner in the works until people start using their heads and getting real about themselves.
I have no time for someone that doesn't take their faith seriously.

[Greebo]

But if he is actually right, then that isn't a chance I believe is worth taking (flat out ignoring it).

So why not believe in Allah for exactly the same reason?

[harmless loony]

[s]Greebo wrote on 10:01, 1st Dec 2004:
But if he is actually right, then that isn't a chance I believe is worth taking (flat out ignoring it).

So why not believe in Allah for exactly the same reason?




By virtue of the fact that he believes in God, he believes in Allah because Allah is just the arabic word for God. Christians who hail from the Middle East and South Asia refer to God as Allah.

Secondly, I think someone said earlier in the thread that Hinduism has many gods - not so! The idea that Hinduism is polytheistic is a common misconception. The idols they have depict the many faces and attributes of one God - Hinduism is actually a monotheistic religion too.

[Greebo]

Ok I'll rephrase (though in that case I was essentially trying to say Why not be Islamic instead of Christian..)

The questions could be endless so I'll rephrase to:

Why not believe in for similar reasons?

[Mr Comedy]

I agree, why not?
If someone can explain to me why they believe what they believe, and how they arrived at the descision, then I won't bother them.
There isn't actually an argumet here.

[hr]"'The tea is coming!' ...she may want a martini, but make her drink tea."
-Alice Taylor, To School Through the Fields

[Greebo]

Well I guess what I'm asking is why have you chosen the Christian God over all others?

From why I understood of your earlier post,

However, if someone comes up to you and says "I have a God who can give you eternal life, and He will help you now if you want", I would suggest that it is worth
a) Thinking about
b) Investigating

Now, there is every chance that this chap may be wrong, and totally mad.
But if he is actually right, then that isn't a chance I believe is worth taking (flat out ignoring it).

I took the line that I posted as being a justification for believing in (in this case) the Christian God - correct me if I'm wrong though.

[Guest]

The Christian union are bigoted, self righteous, heathens.
Long live the Pope.

THE CARDINAL RATZINGER FAN CLUB-
STAMPING OUT HERESY SINCE 1982!!!!!!

[novium]

[s]harmless loony wrote on 11:50, 1st Dec 2004:
Hinduism is actually a monotheistic religion too.


I am not exactly sure about that. It is neither one nor the other
Hinduism, buddhism, and jainism are religions I have never been able to wrap my brain around.

[Biitchboy]

[s]Mr Comedy wrote on 23:03, 29th Nov 2004:
Firstly, where does it say in The Bible that wearing good clothes is a sin?
And why would God condemn them for doing it?


Actually, Leviticus condemns the wearing of cheap polyester-cotton mixes. (Leviticus is also the book of the Bible that condems homsexuality... but that's irrelevant here)

Why would God condemn it? I don't know. Most fashion conscious gays would.

[Mr Comedy]

[s]Greebo wrote on 18:09, 1st Dec 2004:
Well I guess what I'm asking is why have you chosen the Christian God over all others?


Fair enough question.
I checked all of the religions out, I checked out atheism, I checked out evolution and everything.
And it hasn't been either that since I became a Christian, I have just refused to listen to anything else.

If you like, I will go into the reasons.

Science
Firstly, I think that the biggest challenge is that posed by Science. Didn't everything just evolve? Isn't this all the result of a series of co-incidences?

I chose to work from the other angle on this. If the World evolves by chance, and we accept the competition elements and everything else, then life would be all about functionality. This just does it's job.
But if there was a creator god on the other end, what would I expect to see instead? Creative design. I like to think of this as being like Easter Island. If you see one stone that looks like a face, then you can write it off as coincidence.
However, if they all look like faces, then something else is going on - there is something behind it.
The same applies to the world. If one thing is beautiful, then that is chance. If everything else is, then it isn't. If you look at any false colour SEM of the body, you will see that there is beauty at every scale. I would content that points towards a God.

Evolution poses a challenge too. If things evolve, then why is there a need for a god?
I haven't got time to go into all the arguments about this, and I could write a book on the subject. However, I have delved into Biology enough to understand that at the heart of evolution there are assumptions, just like other faiths.
Therefore evolution is also a faith.
(Personally I believe that there is a certain amount of variability. I think that from one cat you can get over time, any sort of cat. But I don't think you can get a dog).
Much as I don't want to turn this into an argument for or against evolution, this is what I have been convinced of.

Contradictions and untruth
If we take it as granted that the Bible is truth, or any other religious text, then it must stand up to scrutiny. I have examined all the so-called contradictions in the Bible, and none of them stand up. I have also examined the claims that the Bible was re-written and altered considerably later, and they don't stand up either.
Again, this is a book-type subject that I cannot possibly address in just one post, or even 10 posts. But I would be willing to talk it through with people if they wanted.


Secondly, it needs to be backed up by history. If history condradicts it, then it is wrong. On every single checkpoint that we have in the Bible, it proves to be incredibly accurate.

Other religions
If Christianity claims to be the one true religion, then the others cannot be. Although that is not a PC statement, it is true. So if we see that other religious texts are better, or more trustworthy, then we can see them as holding the same claim.

This is my opinion, and I know that it is contraversial. I don't think that the other religions I have investigated hold. I find inherent errors, and contradictions.
I know this is going to provoke debate, and probably get me into hot water, but this is what I have found. I have read the Koran, the Book of Mormon, the background into many pagan religions, the Bahavad Gita, and other religious texts. I don't find the same 'ring of truth' that I find in the Bible.
However, I value the right of anyone else to believe this. And I will not impose my beliefs upon someone either. This isn't meant to cause offence, but is purely a personal statement. So, erm, please don't get offended.
Moving on...

Fundamental questions
If there was a God, then I think that we would see that people would not only worry about the here and now, but about wider and broader questions. Why am I here? When I die, what happens? Is there something more to life?
I would also expect that people would not find ultimate satisfaction in the 'goals' of life - money, sex, power or fame. Read any glossy magazine, and you will find that no matter what you have got, there is a fundamental emptiness.
I think that this wouldn't be the case if there was nothing else.

Changing peoples lives
I would expect to see that if Christianity is real, then it changes peoples lives. My life has changed beyond belief, and I know people who have stopped crime, given up drugs and changed (for the better) overnight.
I see people changed, and that makes me consider that maybe there is some truth in it.

Those are the reasons (very simply) why I believe in a Christian God.

Disclaimer
I realise that this is not the view of everyone, and instead is my own personal view. I would like to say that this stands apart from any organisation or society to which I belong, and is not the view of such.
I would also like to say that the views I hold do not have a negative impact upon the way in which I deal with people when acting on behalf of any societies or clubs I am a member of.

If anyone wants to discuss this further with me, then am only going to conduct the rest of this by email. Send me an email through my profile if you want to talk further, as I am worried that public discussion of this might impact upon roles or jobs that I hold.

[the Empress]

Lets gouge religion out of history, thereby making it alot more interesting.

[Haunted]

I not sure you can call science a relgion.

[Dr Strangelust]

“If history condradicts it, then it is wrong. On every single checkpoint that we have in the Bible, it proves to be incredibly accurate.”

Cue ancient historians…

“Therefore evolution is also a faith”

Cue biologists…

[Slightly concerned]

i have to agree with Rilla here, i'm a christian too, but i despise the way some CUs act in trying to get people to come to faith.


on the grounds of equal opertunities, If you are a member of the Church of Scotland then you cant be a member of the St Andrews CU (by the CU's consitution)


Ummm, I'm a fully signed-up member of both the Church of Scotland (in St Andrews and at home) and ALSO of the CU here in St Andrews. They have yet to come into conflict with each other during my involvement. Doctrinally they are not actually mutually exclusive of one another.

Just on a point of information, there are actually CU members who are Church of Scotlanders, Catholics, Anglicans and the like. Not really wanting to stoke the fires of debate too much, but I just wanted to clear up a couple of factual inaccuracies that'd I'd noticed on the thread.

Thanks for listening!

[niall]

[s]Unregisted User Slightly concerned wrote on 21:54, 1st Dec 2004:

Ummm, I'm a fully signed-up member of both the Church of Scotland (in St Andrews and at home) and ALSO of the CU here in St Andrews. They have yet to come into conflict with each other during my involvement. Doctrinally they are not actually mutually exclusive of one another.



to be a member of the CU you have to agree to their constitution which says:

4. Membership of the Union will be open to all matriculated students of the University who are following a course of study in St Andrews who can conscientiously subscribe to the following basis of membership. "In joining the St. Andrews University Christian Union I declare:

4.1.1. My faith in Jesus Christ as my Saviour, my Lord, and my God;
4.1.2. My belief in the Bible as the Word of God and as my final authority in all matters of faith and conduct."



if you are a member of the church of scotland then you have declared that you believe the bible contains the word of God.

[Miz Manda]

[s]the Empress wrote on 12:52, 2nd Dec 2004:
Lets gouge religion out of history, thereby making it alot more interesting.


Actually I think that would make history a lot less interesting. Also, people would just find another excuse to torment each other.

[hr]
Any act of anti-social insanity is immediately sanctified by the magic word 'charity'. As someone once said, if Hitler had invaded Poland 'for Spina Bifida' then everyone would have just let him get on with it.

[Tweedle-Dum]

4.1.2. My belief in the Bible as the Word of God and as my final authority in all matters of faith and conduct."




Which ofcourse excludes Catholics, as the final authority in matters of faith and conduct is the Pope.

[Guest]

While we are on the topic...I'd like to draw your attention to:

6.1.3 The retiring committee shall also make a nomination for each post

I think the fairness of such an election system should be considered. I mean who is going to run against a "God Squad." So what if the option is there for people to run against the retiring committees options...is it going to happen? I think not...i wonder what the statistics of successful campaigns for people NOT chosen by the committee are? probably very low, if existant... It looks very much like a "who we like selection" rather than anything remotely Godly... Is the wool so firmly over the eyes of the members?

I wonder who the "chosen" are to add to the CU Hall of Fame? The rumours have started...

[Miz Manda]

[s]Tweedle-Dum wrote on 17:00, 2nd Dec 2004:
[i]
4.1.2. My belief in the Bible as the Word of God and as my final authority in all matters of faith and conduct."



Which ofcourse excludes Catholics, as the final authority in matters of faith and conduct is the Pope.
[/i]

Yeah, Catholics technically speaking sign on. Is the thing about the CU praying for the conversion of Ctholics until a few years ago true?

[hr]
Any act of anti-social insanity is immediately sanctified by the magic word 'charity'. As someone once said, if Hitler had invaded Poland 'for Spina Bifida' then everyone would have just let him get on with it.