Religious texts in halls

[Al]

What a lot of fuss over nothing. If you don't want to see a Bible then put it in a drawer and forget about it. There is absolutely no excuse for destroying other people's property. Furthermore, if the SRC concentrated on things that matter to students it would be seen in a much better light.

[Sid]

I need my gideons, nothing else holds my door open better!

Sinead

[exnihilo]

I didn't plough through all of this, so I apologise if I repeat anything, but it seems to me that there are a couple of obvious points to address.

First, not all religions are like Christianity - neither Islam nor Judaism would be interested in leaving their holy texts simply lying around. Saying that they could if they wanted, when their beliefs mean that they can't, is not unakin to saying a wheelchair bound person could climb stairs - if only their legs would let them.

Second, why the Gideon Society? There are a number of Christian churches who don't accept that version of the Bible as in any way authoritative - are they all to be allowed to pop their version of the Bible in as well? That could lead to a hefty collection.

I'm forced to agree with everyone who says that if people want religion they'll find it. It's presumptuous of any group to be placing their texts in rooms. The motion you're going to end up with will be so hedged rounds with ifs and buts and other qualifiers, and the process for determining who can and can't will be so open to abuse that it's not worth getting involved in.

[David Bean]

Okay, just quickly...

Empress: it's on the agenda; I tabled it yesterday before your message came in. However, I rather fail to see the point in asking someone not to raise an issue on the SRC. If you disagree with the sentiment expressed, argue against it, and if you're not interested in the subject don't pay attention to it, but it is the prerogative of any student to bring up any subject that they see fit, and it's also up to students to decide what's important enough to raise, which also goes back to everyone who said that it's not significant/important. Moreover, as I stated earlier, this is a timely issue given what has happened in Stirling and then just recently in Edinburgh, and the fact that so many students have posted back saying they agree with what we're trying to do, would also tend to indicate that not only is the motion supported by a majority and therefore deserves to be put, and carried.

I don't know why so many people posted asking about controls - as I said in the motion, and also earlier, we're leaving that to the Religious Council, which is mandated to take decisions on all other matters of religion anyway, so where's the problem there? And I don't especially care if not all religions are interested in leaving their texts there - as far as I see it, that's a matter for them. Still further, I don't know where this ridiculous notion comes from that we have to have parity (that if one religion is represented this way, they all must be), but I'm glad to see that the cause of pointless, do-gooding PCness isn't dead yet. Oh yes, and Alex, who wanted to impose some kind of Kafka-esque bureaucratic nightmare of triplicate paperwork before anyone even gets to smell the Bible's leather bounding - forget it, mate, it's really not that important.

Oh yes, and concerning my use of the word 'right', all I was referring to was the opportunity of a group to continue with an existing practice, or for a new one to join in, without being prevented from doing so.

The reason we're trying to do this is that we think the quiet, sensible majority - people like Frank, who thankfully spoke up - think that the idea of banning Gideons Bibles is a load of old cobblers, but since it is happening elsewhere, we wanted to nip it in the bud right now. But the fact that we're even discussing this would indicate that the issue is of some interest, and that's what the SRC is for - that's how you empower and engage the student body.

[hr]

I'm your Guardian Angel.

[Sid]

Quoting exnihilo from 11:04, 25th Oct 2005

Second, why the Gideon Society? There are a number of Christian churches who don't accept that version of the Bible as in any way authoritative - are they all to be .

He has a point, why the Gideon Society? They must be making a mint!

[Maidmarion]

As long as all religious groups are allowed to give books to the university I really see no problem. It would be quite cool for an insomiac like me to have a torah and koran and bible late at night. Tjhen again, the language used in the new bible really poisses me off, can I have a king james versionm, such beautiful language, so wonderful to read even as an agnostic.

[JP Patches]

Quoting Sid from 12:54, 25th Oct 2005

He has a point, why the Gideon Society? They must be making a mint!

Oh undoubtedly so, those “distributing free Bibles” rackets are always the most profitable.

[MisterGrumps]

I can see no valid jusification for these items being placed in a room as standard provision as you will always have someone who resents it being there. You can either allow every "book-placer" to leave a text without screening, or you ban all of them - there is no middle ground as far as I can see. Who would this magical screening commitee be? Surely not a religious one as that would discriminate against non-religious items.

The only tenable option is to ban all advertising materials (including effectively religious texts) being deposited in rooms. But who am I to say...

[exnihilo]

Quoting David Bean from 12:38, 25th Oct 2005And I don't especially care if not all religions are interested in leaving their texts there - as far as I see it, that's a matter for them.

Sorry, perhaps I wasn't clear, it's not so much that certain religions wouldn't be interested, as it would be a complete desecration for them. Speaking only for Judaism, one simply does NOT leave a Torah lying about, it's a holy text, you're not supposed to even leave them on the floor, as they contain the name of God and must be treated with reverence.

To say you don't care if they're "not interested" is, in a sense valid, as Jews don't evangelise, but it is hardly a fair and equitable system if what you're saying in effect is that only Christian groups can leave anything because only religious groups who are interested in evangelising will be considered. Rather makes moot the notion of deciding who can and can't by building it right in at the start.

[Sid]

I didn't know they were free, sorry!

How do they make money then?

Sinead

[niall]

donations and legacies i believe.

Exnihilo: If a torah cant be left lying around, then thats that particular religion's problem and something they should really think about!

[hr]

do you have a tastyspoon?

http://www.tastyspoon.com/forum

IMAGE:www.danasoft.com/vipersig.jpg

[David Bean]

What about religions like Buddhism, Hinduism and the Bahai Faith? I'm almost certain that they all accept converts, and there's no reason why an enterprising group couldn't distribure, say, the Bhagavad Gita (which would have made my third year Asian Philosophies course a lot easier).

[hr]

I'm your Guardian Angel.

[Fionnlagh]

Quoting Al from 09:47, 25th Oct 2005
There is absolutely no excuse for destroying other people's property.

Isn't the point tho', that they are donating the book to you? therefore, it's yours to do with as you please.

Personally I've never wanted mine, tho' I've always just dumped it in the drawer, binning it seems very wasteful and malicious. I'de be one to opt out given the choice, but as it doesn't offend me, I'm also not the type to complain. If come next year I returned to find my top drawer filled with lots of fairly bulky texts, I might just take the space-saving route and dump them.

Like a lot of people here, I would be concerned at who gets to pick what is allowed, and on what basis. Why should religions get preferential treatment? I demand a copy of Harry Potter in every study bedroom!

[exnihilo]

Quoting niall from 18:40, 25th Oct 2005
Exnihilo: If a torah cant be left lying around, then thats that particular religion's problem and something they should really think about!

Why? Why should they leave the Torah lying around for people to deface or destroy? If you want to know about Judaism, ask, any Rabbi will give you his time - we don't proselytise though. To my mind, that's admirable.

This motion is nothing more nor less than licence for any evangelical Christian with a mission to butt into other people's lives. If that's what you want, knock yourself out.

[Frank]

Quoting Fionnlagh from 19:45, 25th Oct 2005
I demand a copy of Harry Potter in every study bedroom!

Present a way of funding it and I'm sure it won't be *that* much of a problem.

The intention of the Gideon Bible, as far as I'm aware is not to throw religion down peoples throats or advertise Christianity, I'm inclined to believe(though it may be wrong) that it's purpose is akin to that of the Samaritans...there 'just in case'. I'm also curious as to why Toilet Cubicles come with a Gideon's Toilet Roll, but thats by the by(you sit down, do what is done and then you realise you didn't check the roll...there's oft a prayer said then I'll wager).

Seriously though, the purpose of it is to offer support. They may be slightly put out that folks burn it/wipe their bums with it/throw it at their annoyingly evangelist next-door-neighbour/whatever, but I'm fairly sure they're aware of what they got themselves into and won't complain about it. Hence why I suggested the more courteous option of simply turning it into a cleaner/warden/res manager if you don't want it, someone else might.

Perhaps an 'opt in system' would work better if others were motivated, but thats not really what we're on about right now, its that 'we think there's no real problem with it being left in the rooms at the expense of the Gideons "Just in case..."', or not if we don't agree with the motion.

As to who decides, I don't see the problem with relying on the SRC until a problem arises and then taking it up with them. If we already know of problems, why isn't it being sorted now?

Hence why I'm personally in favour of the proposal.

Frank

[Ben Reilly]

The motion was amended after discussions with a few people, and actually became something that extended the status quo:

That groups could place the core text of their religion (so long as said religion was on the list recognised as such by the Scottish Executive) in bedrooms and that students would be informed that all groups are entitled to do this and that if they don't want it in their room, they are more than welcome to hand it in to a member of staff or put it in the hall library.

The motion fell.

[hr]

University of St Andrews Clothing - http://www.standrewsclothing.com

[Foolish Pedant]

Are the minutes for the SRC/SSC meetings still put online?
I wouldn't expect them to be up already (the meeting was only last night after all), but when should we expect to see them?

[Al]

"Isn't the point tho', that they are donating the book to you? therefore, it's yours to do with as you please."

That would depend on whether the book was handed out to each student as they arrived or merely left in each study-bedroom.

[Rennie]

David, I fail to see how my system of having just one small section of the accomodation application dedicated to this problem, namely if you wanted a religious text in your room or not, would be difficult?

Surely, it would be done online (as I believe it is done now), the results would be collated by computer, and the results passed on to the various religious groups - for example, if I said I wanted a Koran in my room, the local group responsible for distributing them would then put one in my room. It would be left to them to do it, and left to them to pick up the sheet with the list of rooms on. It must be easier than giving them to everyone, and not anywhere near as wasteful - which was a point that was completely not addressed, with the University being so keen on recycling and all.

Also, a side benefit of this would be that the people that actively expressed an interest in wanting a bible, torah etc... would get one, and the groups that give them out would surely be more pleased that they are giving it to someone that probably will read it, rather than giving it to everyone with 1% of people reading it. I know if I was the guy handing out bibles, I'd be much happier knowing that it was probably going to good use, rather than almost certainly going to waste. However, as I've said earlier, I don't like the motives of the Bible being put in the room at all, and I feel it is there for the vunerable. That bit is just my opinion though.

So, in summary. Everyone on the post, bar you David, is happy to implement a system whereby you opt in for a religious text. I have to say I agree completely with exnihilo in his comments in this post, especially : "This motion is nothing more nor less than licence for any evangelical Christian with a mission to butt into other people's lives. If that's what you want, knock yourself out.
"

Feedback/flaming appreciated, of course.

[Senethro]

/!\ OUR INTERESTS WERE REPRESENTED!/!\