Dundee Poly

[Raaaaaaaar]

Saw this in todays Scotsman. Seems you have to be a member of the website to read it so I'll just copy it here.


University? More like a poly - says its own rector
FERGUS SHEPPARD

DUNDEE University was last night locked in a bizarre stand-off with its own rector after he used his first speech to students to accuse the institution of authoritarianism, comparing it to an "English polytechnic".

Craig Murray, Britain's former ambassador to Uzbekistan, was elected by students as rector in February this year, succeeding the TV presenter3 Lorraine Kelly.

But the controversial diplomat - who was forced out of his post three years ago after claiming the United States and Britain were involved in torture in Uzbekistan - has already fallen out with college heads following his maiden speech to students.

The 48-year-old claimed he had asked twice for information about cuts in academic provision which he said the university had blamed on "higher-than- expected pay awards, an unexpected increase in the cost of energy and increased building costs through a higher cost of steel."

He said he asked for a cost breakdown at two successive university court meetings this year, but received no answers. Mr Murray also claimed the fact he had asked the question did not appear in the minutes.

"Dissent is deemed not to happen," the rector told students.

Mr Murray went on: "Scottish universities are traditionally democratic self-governing communities, and the election of the rector is a vital reminder of this ... my view is that the governance of this institution in recent years has been more akin to an old English polytechnic than a Scottish university."

Mr Murray, who will serve as rector for three years, even accused the university of attempting to influence the election for rector against him, in favour of Andy Nicol, a former Scotland rugby captain.

He claimed former rectors Ms Kelly and the comedian Fred Macaulay chose to back Nicol "not without some encouragement from within the university hierarchy".

The rector made his address after the traditional trip through the streets of the town in a carriage pulled by students.

Mr Murray, himself a Dundee University graduate, went on to argue in favour of a liberal education and against what he claimed was an increasing concentration on vocational qualifications.

He said: "Universities - including this one - have been much afflicted by a cult of right-wing managerialism, exemplified in the view that businessmen are the only people whose expertise is useful and transferable."

Mr Murray, who lives in London, was yesterday supplying copies of his speech to journalists, claiming the press office at Dundee University had refused to provide it, place it in the library or put it online.

He said: "I'm sure the university would love to get rid of me but I am here to stay."

A university spokesman said: "The speech isn't factually correct and it does not represent the views of the university."

The official said the university's press office had not released copies of previous rectors' speeches and only a portion of Ms Kelly's had appeared on the university website, adding that any speech would only be kept in the library if it was published.

The position of rector in Scottish universities is steeped in tradition, dating back to papal edicts of the 15th century. The rector is chosen by the students and the holder is not part of the university's administration.

The rector has a seat on the university court - its board of governors - and can vote on issues such as its budget and annual accounts. The holder of the post is also there to provide a voice for the students, although other student representatives also have a seat on court.

Celebrities or high-profile people with no previous ties to universities are often elected. Mordechai Vanunu, jailed for 18 years for leaking Israel's nuclear secrets, is the rector of Glasgow University. However, he cannot attend court meetings as he is forbidden from leaving Israel.

This article: http://news.scotsman.com/dundee.cfm?id=1557562007

[Mr Comedy]

Oh dear, they were better off as Queens College, weren't they?

[hr]

"I am in no way interested in immortality, but only in the taste of tea. " -Lu Tung

[Mr Comedy]

Oh, and Rector?
Damn near killed her!

(Sorry, couldn't help it)

[hr]

"I am in no way interested in immortality, but only in the taste of tea. " -Lu Tung

[exnihilo]

I like the University's reply that his speech didn't represent their views. Why on Earth should the Rector's speech reflect the views of the University? Surely that's half the point in having him there?

[Bonnie]

Good on him. I like this guy. When can he be our Rector?

[Bonnie]

Or, their Rector. I keep forgetting that I'm not a student.

[Humphrey]

I think I have read some stuff by this guy in the past, and if so Dundee only have themselves to blame for electing this nutter rector in the first place. The only worse decision I can think of is Edinburgh awarding Mugabe an honoury degree in the eighties.

From what I can gather, you could show this guy something as seemingly innocuous as the staff room heating bill and he would still be able to link it to some anglo-american torture conspiracy.

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http://www.livejournal.com/users/humphrey_clarke/

[Saoirse]

Quoting Humphrey from 08:02, 4th Oct 2007
I think I have read some stuff by this guy in the past, and if so Dundee only have themselves to blame for electing this nutter rector in the first place.
[hr]

/

Well, you are entitled to your own stupid opinion of course, but if I was at Dundee I would see him as a vast improvement on Lorraine Kelly.
I think he is marvellous, the things he did in Uzbekistan took a lot of courage. Dundee students are fortunate to have him representing them, he is actually doing the job he is supposed to do.

[Malcolm]

I am now a perfectly happy student at Dundee. All this pointless slating of Dundee from ignorant idiots down at St Andrews really should stop, it's never remotely funny, it's all baseless and makes you look and sound like complete cretins, to be perfectly honest. I was tired of the ridiculous comments when I was still at St Andrews and I'm still tired of it now.

Now that I've got that out of my system.... I don't think the rector is making any sense whatsoever. He came across with some stupid comment at the Freshers' Welcome Talk in September (can't remember what it was but he seemed like a nice guy albeit talking crap). Whatever he says about funding issues it never once reflected down to the students, we are seeing no cut in services, teaching budgets, or anything; life goes on as normal. So yes, he is talking rubbish.

This place is totally not a polytechnic, it's a highly respected University with a whole string of academic and research accolades stretching back way before 1967. So stop being so fucking ignorant, St Andrews is not the best town or the best University in the world. In fact, it itself is a polytechnic when you put it up against places like Harvard, MIT, Imperial College etc. It's nothing.

[Mr Comedy]

Still bitter because they kicked you out Malcolm?

It's a university that was previously a college of St Andrews, so academic awards pre 1967 are St Andrews awards, not those of the University of Dundee as there was no such place.

And when did we ever say St Andrews was the best university in the world? I've never seriously considered it to be on a par with Oxbridge, Harvard or MIT.

[hr]

"I am in no way interested in immortality, but only in the taste of tea. " -Lu Tung

[the racing tortoise]

Can I just point out that he did not say the uni was like a polytechnic, but "that the governance of this institution in recent years has been more akin to an old English polytechnic than a Scottish university."
ie His quibble was with the way it is being run and the way it is going rather than what it is now. Also undergrad students don't tend to see the effects of budget cuts straight away, as it is the research budgets that get hit. This in turn stops the university attracting top class staff, but for at least a few years the teaching quality will remain. I don't really know whether he is overreacting or not, but if there are being budget cuts then it is his job to look into it.

[hr]

eternally optimistic - against all evidence

[Malcolm]

Quoting Mr Comedy from 11:21, 4th Oct 2007
Still bitter because they kicked you out Malcolm?

Not at all. I'm much happier here and should have probably come here in the first place.

For the record, I wasn't kicked out or expelled. I chose to leave because I was unable to continue doing what I wanted to do there and better opportunities lay elsewhere.

[beeny]

Quoting Malcolm from 11:28, 4th Oct 2007

Quoting Mr Comedy from 11:21, 4th Oct 2007
Still bitter because they kicked you out Malcolm?

Not at all. I'm much happier here and should have probably come here in the first place.

For the record, I wasn't kicked out or expelled. I chose to leave because I was unable to continue doing what I wanted to do there and better opportunities lay elsewhere.

Does strike me as a bit sore loserish.... YAy. St andrews FTW

[hr]

'But what do I know? I'm a bear; I suck the heads off fish.'

[exnihilo]

So everyone's happy. Splendid,

[Frank]

Malcolm: At this Uni or not, you're still my son. Don't be the cretin you complain about.

Quoting Malcolm from 10:19, 4th Oct 2007
All this pointless slating of Dundee from ignorant idiots down at St Andrews really should stop,

What pointless slating and which ignorant idiots? The only perhaps fruitless statement is Humphrey blaming your lot (Dundee students) for electing the guy.

Quoting Malcolm from 10:19, 4th Oct 2007 it's never remotely funny,

Counterexample: Mr Comedy said-

"Oh, and Rector?
Damn near killed her!"

Quoting Malcolm from 10:19, 4th Oct 2007 it's all baseless and makes you look and sound like complete cretins, to be perfectly honest.

Nope, it makes you sound sound like cretins via your response when combined with the (false, IMO) assumption that your post was well thought out and representative of any sort of Dundee student's opinion. Anyway, back to dissecting you...

Quoting Malcolm from 10:19, 4th Oct 2007I was tired of the ridiculous comments when I was still at St Andrews and I'm still tired of it now.

Get off the Sinner then, perhaps? I find myself never tired of the ridiculous comments, only ever hungry for more.

Quoting Malcolm from 10:19, 4th Oct 2007Now that I've got that out of my system.... I don't think the rector is making any sense whatsoever. He came across with some stupid comment at the Freshers' Welcome Talk in September (can't remember what it was but he seemed like a nice guy albeit talking crap).

Intruigingly similar to the only ignorant idiot candidate's baseless assertions above!

Quoting Malcolm from 10:19, 4th Oct 2007Whatever he says about funding issues it never once reflected down to the students, we are seeing no cut in services, teaching budgets, or anything; life goes on as normal. So yes, he is talking rubbish.

Problems in this argument detailed by the racing tortoise, a poster I haven't noticed before.

Quoting Malcolm from 10:19, 4th Oct 2007This place is totally not a polytechnic, it's a highly respected University with a whole string of academic and research accolades stretching back way before 1967. So stop being so fucking ignorant, St Andrews is not the best town or the best University in the world. In fact, it itself is a polytechnic when you put it up against places like Harvard, MIT, Imperial College etc.

So, no bitterness at all?

Quoting Malcolm from 10:19, 4th Oct 2007 It's nothing.

Right. Umm...?

In any case, this Rector seems a bit mad, but might he be on to something? Tune in again for another exciting episode of "Unspeakable Tales of the Sinner from Dundee!"...

[hr]

"There is only ever one truth. Things are always black or white, there's no such thing as a shade of grey. If you think that something is a shade of grey it simply means that you don't fully understand the situation. The truth is narrow and the path of the pursuit of truth is similarly narrow."

[Humphrey]

Quoting saoirse from 09:48, 4th Oct 2007

Quoting Humphrey from 08:02, 4th Oct 2007
I think I have read some stuff by this guy in the past, and if so Dundee only have themselves to blame for electing this nutter rector in the first place.
[hr]

/

Well, you are entitled to your own stupid opinion of course, but if I was at Dundee I would see him as a vast improvement on Lorraine Kelly.
I think he is marvellous, the things he did in Uzbekistan took a lot of courage. Dundee students are fortunate to have him representing them, he is actually doing the job he is supposed to do.

I don’t think I’ll dispute the fact that condemning the thuggish Uzbeki regime wasn’t a noble thing to do. Of course a traditionalist would argue that it is the job of diplomats to represent the elected government and conform to strict rules of conduct, not act like a loose cannon and start rows with the governments they are supposed to be dealing with. In that respect he was a terrible diplomat but a great spokesman for human rights, sadly the two roles conflict greatly. But standing up to a vile regime does not automatically make him immune from criticism. He is also a difficult character, a heavy drinker, a self confessed serial adulterer and more than a little unhinged judging from what he puts up on the web. What I do take issue with, although perhaps calling him a nutter is a tad strong, is the fact that since the Tashkent debacle he has set himself up as a conspiracy nut peddling the usual ultra left baloney. Mind you, so did Kurt Vonnegut but I still think he was marvelous.

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http://www.livejournal.com/users/humphrey_clarke/