Nail in the coffin

[an old user]

I've been around the sinner for 7 years. I always thought Facebook would kill off the site.. but I was wrong. This redesign will kill it off. I used to check back every couple of days when i had a free moment - I doubt I'll bother any more. I now have to click twice to get to the main messageboard.

Good effort, but the site now looks awful, functions worse and really shows how crap it is compared to others. It is full of geekery and rubbish - the confirmation code, BBCode, the pointless options at the bottom to disable BBCode. Shite. I'll put my head on the line and say The Sinner has at most two more years. This time next year there will barely be anyone.

[orudge]

I've been around the sinner for 7 years. I always thought Facebook would kill off the site.. but I was wrong. This redesign will kill it off. I used to check back every couple of days when i had a free moment - I doubt I'll bother any more. I now have to click twice to get to the main messageboard.

Surely that was the case on the old board too? "Messageboards" and then "The Sinner main board"?

the confirmation code

That was on the old sinner too for the past few months, for unreg posts. If you register, there's no need to enter such a thing.

BBCode

The old sinner also had a version of this. Don't see why it's quite such an issue that the new site supports a better version of it.

[CheeseDaddy]

Personally I think the rebrand is good for the sinner, keeps it from getting too stale y'know?

[exnihilo]

Pay attention, old user, this bit's complicated...

Instead of these onerous multiple clicks, you could just bookmark the boards you check regularly. Sheesh.

[Power Metal Dom]

I doubt I'll bother any more. I now have to click twice to get to the main messageboard.

Oh noes! An additional click! How will your finger cope with that hefty workload?

Good effort, but the site now looks awful, functions worse and really shows how crap it is compared to others.

Others use the same format, it functions better than the old sinner in that it actually works in places and has more function, and I personally don't think it looks awful at all.

It is full of geekery and rubbish - the confirmation code, BBCode, the pointless options at the bottom to disable BBCode.

I think the old sinner had some BB code and a confirmation code so exactly how regular a visitor were you?

[niall]

I've been around the sinner for 7 years. I always thought Facebook would kill off the site.. but I was wrong. This redesign will kill it off. I used to check back every couple of days when i had a free moment - I doubt I'll bother any more. I now have to click twice to get to the main messageboard.

Surely that was the case on the old board too? "Messageboards" and then "The Sinner main board"?

nah, you had the ten most recent threads on the front page. I knida agree in that respect that its a bit annoying and not quite as convenient, but I think its better with the upgrade

[Admin]

Nail? There isn't even a coffin!

Since the site has been redesigned and relaunched, it's gone from strength to strength! There are more visitors, more pageviews and you can see for yourself how active the Sinner's Guide has become now that you can edit it yourself.
Freshers' Week is usually a quiet period for St Andrews websites, but we've had nearly a hundred new users sign up in this week alone.

We'll be doing another advertising push this weekend, and as soon as academic work kicks in, I expect The Sinner will get even busier. After that, we're going to concentrate on the Maps section (http://www.thesinner.net/maps) which will link in with The Sinner's Guide and should provide any lost Freshers with handy directions.

If you'd like to make it easier to reach the main messageboards (there's already a "Most recently updated threads" section on the front page) then add a comment to the suggestions board on the main board.
Here's a link to make it easier for you: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=27945


As Orudge has said, a lot of the features that you mention have actually been in place on the old site for between 6 months and a year, but if there's anything you'd like to change, please mention it on the suggestions board.

[eagle]

I love the new site - I've not really been on it much during Freshers Week, but it's much easier to use, I know immediately which threads have been updated, and I like how you can see how many people have viewed certain topics - it shows just how busy the site actually is (even if no one's posting).

The guide is amazing - I can't wait to get my teeth stuck into it, but I get the feeling I'll be doing a lot more updating when the work builds up (what is the Sinner for, if not procrastination?!)

The interactive maps are much better than the previous version - if they could just be fixed so that the pointers mark the right places on the map (it currently lists some pubs in the middle of roads!)

In all, there's a few bugs to iron out, but I gather the guys behind the site are working on those, and in a few weeks it'll be awesome!

Will there be a stall at the socs fair this year? I've missed it at previous fairs.

[Fawksie]

Are you afraid to log in with your username, OP, if you have one? Geekery and rubbish? The confirmation code is what keeps the boards free of spam, it's an extremely common feature on all modern messageboards and websites, including the old Sinner as has been pointed out. Also, can I draw your attention to the Board Preferences page in which damn near all the "geekery and rubbish" features of the messageboard can be switched off, if you so desire? I think all your other points have already been answered.

[Fawksie]

eagle - I originally placed the map pins according to the aerial photography, not the mapped roads, so you'll notice that they're all in the right place when you look at the photographs. They'll be redone in the coming weeks according to the proper co-ordinates, which will make them correct according to the roads, but not the photographs. Can't have both, since TeleAtlas suck at aligning the two.

[eagle]

eagle - I originally placed the map pins according to the aerial photography, not the mapped roads, so you'll notice that they're all in the right place when you look at the photographs. They'll be redone in the coming weeks according to the proper co-ordinates, which will make them correct according to the roads, but not the photographs. Can't have both, since TeleAtlas suck at aligning the two.

Thanks Fawksie - I'll give you a hand with that if you like - just PM me.

[Anon.]

I've been around the sinner for 7 years. I always thought Facebook would kill off the site.. but I was wrong. This redesign will kill it off. I used to check back every couple of days when i had a free moment - I doubt I'll bother any more. I now have to click twice to get to the main messageboard.

Good effort, but the site now looks awful, functions worse and really shows how crap it is compared to others. It is full of geekery and rubbish - the confirmation code, BBCode, the pointless options at the bottom to disable BBCode. Shite. I'll put my head on the line and say The Sinner has at most two more years. This time next year there will barely be anyone.

I've been around for five or six years and I'm not sure I'll be bothering much more either. Everything - navigating to boards then threads, and posting especially - is much more of a faff, but my major problem is that everything looks so bitty - every page is littered with stuff (headers, adverts, supposedly useful links, search facilities, the time, the altitude, umpteen buttons and all in conflicting typefaces) which just looks cluttered.

[Fawksie]

I should probably take this all in my stride and be diplomatic and everything, but for Christ's sake, catch a grip.

To access a thread on, say, the Advice board on the old Sinner required the following:

1) Navigate to thesinner.net or thesinner.net/mb
2) Click 'Messageboards' if you're not already there
3) Click 'Advice Please!'
4) Click the thread title.

THIS HAS NOT CHANGED ONE BIT. It has become no more complex, and neither has posting. To reply generally to a thread, click Post Reply. To reply including a quote from a previous post, click Quote. How onerous.

The old functionality whereby a number of recent Main Board posts were displayed on the front page is still there, except it displays posts across all boards. If there's demand, I will restrict it to Main Board only.

I accept your criticism of the overall increase in clutter, but you will recognise that this board software is a mite richer in functionality than the old system. All these things have to be controlled somewhere. There are at most three typefaces on this entire website. Mediawiki specifies "sans-serif" in its CSS, leaving your system to choose an appropriate font. phpBB prefers Verdana, then Arial, then sans-serif. Joomla prefers Georgia, then Times New Roman, then serif. What changes would you make to these? Finally, the Sinner is paid for in part by advertising. Do you expect Oli to shoulder the entire cost?

[An old user]

I have no wish to argue with anyone and I fully take on the points made about being able to change options etc. You all have your views. But despite the figures and enthusiasm, I stand by my prediction about the site being finished. I think there will always be a hardcore of ten or twenty users making up most of the posts. Commercially this is utterly worthless, and also means that the site no longer represents a picture of the St Andrews community - which is the main reason I read.

I would be interested to see statistics about what proportion of posts are made by what proportion of people - I suspect that it has moved towards a narrower group of users, who use the site to communicate with a handful of people they already know. There are also no doubt a few committed programmers who are more interested in coding standards than usability - though I am not taking anything from their work here, someone has put in a lot of quality work on the site and I fully credit that. I just think that a site that once represented a community of students has become a small sub-community of Sinner-users.

[Fawksie]

Very little of this site was coded by us. The heart of it is nearly all off-the-shelf stuff, suitably integrated and customised. At least it complies with standards. Did you ever try running the old Sinner through the W3C HTML validator? The thing nearly crashed.

If you'd like to see who posts what, feel free to look at http://www.thesinner.net/mb/memberlist.php?mode=&sk=d&sd=d#memberlist. Even our most prolific poster has personally contributed only 2% of the total post count. The top 10 posters have contributed 13% of the total. The top 20 posters have contributed 19.5% of the total. That leaves a hell of a lot of grass-roots members filling up the rest of the posts.

Some general statistics now. The first full month which I have statistics for was October 2005.
In October 2005 there were 14415 unique users, 49538 visits, 508385 pages served.
In October 2006 there were 18723 unique users, 62973 visits, 597914 pages served.
In October 2007 there were 18861 unique users, 56909 visits, 412591 pages served.
In September 2008 there were 17075 unique users, 45027 visits, 688833 pages served.

Seems pretty steady to me, especially since I don't remember the Sinner being actively advertised since 2005. I will of course let you know how we do in October.

[an old user]

You've got me while I'm bored feckless at a conference.

What I mean by active user count is what proportion of August's posts were by 10/20 users. I appreciate that the summer holiday is not representative, so what about last week then. It should be an easy SQL query I think.

No one gives a flying fuck about the W3C standards. They want a site that looks good and is easy to use.

Fonts:
Logo : uppercase serif bold
Strapline: lowercase, different serif, normal weight
Menu: Georgia
Body: Sans-serif
Graphic buttons: Century Gothic?

That is a ridiculous combination of fonts. And who the fuck thought green and brown were a good combo. It looks like a faded Irish theme bar.

[Admin]

Looking through the member list, even as far back as page 10, I still see names of people who are still active today. That's 250 people!

There were some very prolific posters (Prophet Tenebrae hasn't posted for about 3 years and he's still top of the list!), but the core group of users probably extends well into the 100s.

The number of messageboards has grown considerably (to 37!), so the users are much more diluted across the whole site, which is perhaps why you don't see as many people on the main board as perhaps you used to.

As I mentioned earlier though, we've had around a hundred new users sign up in the last week, and I spent the whole day yesterday talking to people about the site. The majority of those I spoke to were keen on the idea of the site, and about 20 people said that they had already found the site incredibly useful either in finding accommodation or learning about St Andrews before they'd even got here.


There are a lot of extra features on the site, I'll grant you. Some might not stay, which would tidy things up a little, but overall I think a great deal has been added to the workings of the site, and it's now a lot easier for the moderators to check unregistered users' posts, and move things about if they have to. It's also now possible to report any abusive threads by a simple mouse click, instead of firing off an email.

The site isn't just about the people who post though - it's also about the people who read it. Since you posted it, this thread alone has attracted 402 visits!

Have a look at the new Sinner's Guide to St Andrews and you'll find that the site DOES actually represent a community of students; one that is growing and flourishing, in fact.

Drop me an email on admin@thesinner.net - we could meet up and discuss this in person. Either by a computer so I can show you the detailed site statistics, or perhaps over a pint? How about you come to the next Sinner Dinner and meet all the new members? (venue and date TBC)

[Admin]

What I mean by active user count is what proportion of August's posts were by 10/20 users. I appreciate that the summer holiday is not representative, so what about last week then. It should be an easy SQL query I think.

Fonts:
Logo : uppercase serif bold
Strapline: lowercase, different serif, normal weight
Menu: Georgia
Body: Sans-serif
Graphic buttons: Century Gothic?

That is a ridiculous combination of fonts. And who the fuck thought green and brown were a good combo. It looks like a faded Irish theme bar.

Last week is hardly representative either actually - most people are either travelling up or down the country, or out meeting new people or old friends. These coming weeks will be the measure of the site as it takes off. Once academic work starts and the procrastination bug kicks in, The Sinner will come into its own.

As for the number of fonts, you're probably right - there are a few too many. Your conference must be really dull for you to be counting them in such detail!
On my computer, most of the fonts look like Helvetica (albeit with different weights), even on the graphic buttons, though I appreciate that the site may look different on other computers.

However, we're in the second week after a complete site overhaul - things haven't settled down yet, and most of the people involved in getting the new site up and running have either been involved with societies' stuff for Freshers' Week, or out of the country! I've hardly spent any time at all on the redesign, leaving it in Fawksie's and Orudge's hands; merely checking in on progress at the end of each night and making suggestions and requests.
There are plenty of tweaks to make here and there - if you spot anything that needs to be changed, please make a suggestion on the Messageboard Suggestions page (http://www.thesinner.net/mb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=27945)

[Stu le taxi]

That is a ridiculous combination of fonts. And who the fuck thought green and brown were a good combo. It looks like a faded Irish theme bar.

IMO you're demonstrating little more than your knowledge of fonts; yes, the graphic buttons look a bit out of place, but other than that it looks great and is a step change from the rather primitive-looking old Sinner.

Yes, there are lots of bells and whistles compared to the old message board, and it may look a bit cluttered, but I've used similar phpbb boards for years and even if users don't utilise all the additional functionality they'll concentrate on the core message function and will soon not even notice the clutter, as with many websites generally.

As for the number of clicks required, as a non-student and occasional reader I simply had the main board bookmarked, so for me it's simply a question of updating that.

[munchingfoo]

With that in mind, perhaps it would be best to focus the leaflet advertising campaign around week 3 next year?