"For girls eyes only"

[wild_quinine]

There are wars going on. A billion people are one dry season away from starving to death. The planet is heating up. Some women might go to a ball and end up having sex with some soldiers. Wait... one of these things is not like the others... which one could it be?

The ball one, right? With all the squaddies? Because all the other things are abstract, general, and mundane.

Oh well, at least the 'dry season' is almost over for 45 Commando.

[LonelyPilgrim]

There are wars going on. A billion people are one dry season away from starving to death. The planet is heating up. Some women might go to a ball and end up having sex with some soldiers. Wait... one of these things is not like the others... which one could it be?

The ball one, right? With all the squaddies? Because all the other things are abstract, general, and mundane.

Oh well, at least the 'dry season' is almost over for 45 Commando.

The ball one indeed. The others should be of concern to just about everyone. The ball should be of concern only to those who are attending. It's no one else's business. Pretending otherwise is the worst sort of moralising that would do the Victorians proud. Except that the Victorians would be scrabbling to send their daughters to an Officers Mess ball thingie.

[ojk6]

The ball should be of concern only to those who are attending. It's no one else's business.

I think the tax payer can take an interest in this event, as they are paying for it!

[wild_quinine]

The ball one indeed. The others should be of concern to just about everyone. The ball should be of concern only to those who are attending. It's no one else's business. Pretending otherwise is the worst sort of moralising that would do the Victorians proud. Except that the Victorians would be scrabbling to send their daughters to an Officers Mess ball thingie.

We see everything but ourselves. I think we live in a more accutely moralising generation than the Victorians ever did.

The Victorians, as a generalisation, might have welcomed this ball for their daughters - but it would have been for reasons which, today, we find morally abhorrent. I'm not even saying that's wrong. But I think it's relevant.

To be clear, it's not the idea of sex that I find worrying here. Hey, nobody's perfect; you want to talk about ShagTag or the Traffic Lights Bop, and we can talk about tastefulness as it relates to my queasy moral spectrum. But, generally, sex is good, and other people can have it, too.

That's not what this is. This is about whether or not this event has the potential to end in some very unhappy feeling people, whether or not this event engenders an atmosphere of pressurised sexual expectation borne of booze, frustration and peer pressure and, most germanely, whether or not a major student body should be endorsing and normalising that.

So, if this is moralising sex, it's not about saying who should have sex, or how nice young girls should behave. It's about the politics of straight up requistioning sex, and you can drop the 'enlightened thinker' BS, because sooner or later we all draw a fucking line there.

[LonelyPilgrim]

So, if this is moralising sex, it's not about saying who should have sex, or how nice young girls should behave. It's about the politics of straight up requistioning sex, and you can drop the 'enlightened thinker' BS, because sooner or later we all draw a fucking line there.

Requisitioning sex is wrong, of course. But I must have missed the part of the original invite that said words to the effect of "You will attend this ball or your studies and/or membership in the AU will be in jeopardy." I even missed the part that more softly said, "If you were a good student, you'd do this," or "This is expected of you."

No, what I read was words to the effect of "Hey, this thing is happening. You're invited. There's a bus so you can get there and back safely if you're inclined to go." If that counts as 'requisitioning' I need to make some edits to my dictionary...

[donpablo]

Personally I don't like the word 'invite' in the whole thing. It does in a subtle way make you feel compelled to go. That said, I never make it to everything I'm invited to, but it just feels like bad manners turning down an invite.

[LonelyPilgrim]

Personally I don't like the word 'invite' in the whole thing. It does in a subtle way make you feel compelled to go. That said, I never make it to everything I'm invited to, but it just feels like bad manners turning down an invite.

Well, in that case, I invite you to send me all your money. I'll even make it a cordial invitation if that makes you feel further compelled...

[Frank]

Gotta 'fess up on this. I'm principally with LP on this matter. (And secondarily with DP.)

I find the whole thing a bit distasteful, but I can see that as my own cynicism rather'n a sensible objection.

[Cain]

http://www.thecourier.co.uk/output/2010/03/09/newsstory14668997t0.asp

THE COMMANDING officer at RM Condor yesterday vowed he would personally deal with any member found bringing the unit’s good name into disrepute after a rowdy weekend in Arbroath which saw bars closed early on the advice of the police...

The unit has just returned from what was called an “intense” training deployment to Norway.

Some problems were experienced in the town after the unit’s return from operations in Afghanistan last summer, leading to counter-claims the marines were being discriminated against by licence-holders.

This weekend there were reports of young commandos fighting among themselves, obstructing police officers, giving unwanted attention to women and general, unacceptable rowdy and drunken behaviour.

Sound like 45 will have got it all out of their system by the 18th

[donpablo]

The plot thickens...

Sorry LP, I'm all out of disposable cash. Not that I don't feel bad about it now.

[stripedtights]

hahahahahahahha

[wild_quinine]

Requisitioning sex is wrong, of course. But I must have missed the part of the original invite that said words to the effect of "You will attend this ball or your studies and/or membership in the AU will be in jeopardy." ... what I read was words to the effect of "Hey, this thing is happening. You're invited. There's a bus so you can get there and back safely if you're inclined to go." If that counts as 'requisitioning' I need to make some edits to my dictionary...

I like my choice of words. They have a military feel, and exemplify the sense of supply-and-demand I get from the story. I think it's a bit cynical, to be honest. Someone in charge of a bunch of men who want sex has put in a request with someone in authority in a student body. Even the fact they approached the AU is kind of funny, when you think of the dual meaning of the word 'fit'. It just seems like somebody identified a need, found a budget, and put in a request, which probably went through PR for attention to the appropriate terminology - such as 'outreach to the community'. The whole thing seems to have all the human tenderness of a strategic outsourcing.

I object to the fact that you wanted to close down the discussion of whether or not it was OK to do this, and much more importantly, whether or not it was OK for the AU to acquiesce to the request, simply because you don't want to pass judgement on the motives of individual people who might be interested in attending such an event.

Nor should we! But those are two different things. If someone wants to go get some guaranteed sex with a man in uniform, that is their decision, and you're 100% correct about that. Fuck, those guys are probably pretty 'fit', too. It could be ideal, if you're up for it.

But that's a distraction - which you introduced. The question of whether or not the AU has crossed a line is an open one, and I think it's quite an interesting one, too.

I even missed the part that more softly said, "If you were a good student, you'd do this," or "This is expected of you."

Did you miss the part where it said "This is just a party like any other. Hey, if your AU is bringing it to your attention, it's probably pretty safe. We'd definitely go, if we were you. It sounds super. "

No, you didn't miss that. In fact, that's pretty much how you rephrased their message, which - I guess - is pretty much how it was intended to be read. And that is coming from a source that students are inclined to trust.

That's one of the big issues with this, I think. If 45 commando had mailed a bunch of students directly, or tried to hook up with them up on facebook, a lot of people would have been weirded out. But the AU is mailing them, so it's normal, it's official, and it's safe. Except that, actually, it is exactly what it is, for better or worse, and the tacit endorsement of the AU is probably inappropriate.

[jollytiddlywink]

Nor should we! But those are two different things. If someone wants to go get some guaranteed sex with a man in uniform, that is their decision, and you're 100% correct about that. Fuck, those guys are probably pretty 'fit', too. It could be ideal, if you're up for it.

I just wish they'd also emailed the men of the AU... I'd be at that party with bells on. And very little else!

[ChrisH]

It's the Royal Marines - in terms of shaggability you have 50+ of the fittest men in the country, in uniform, earning £30k+ - if they wanted to seduce the girls of St Andrews they wouldn't need to hoodwink them into the mess with that email and rape them.

They'd just have to turn up in the town and be mobbed. For crying out loud get a sense of humour and see that they tried to write a vaguely informal email to a party (given it's fancy dress it isn't exactly necessary to copy Debretts verbatim on this)


And as for the men who might want to go, given the penchance the marines have for naked rollmat fighting (Google it...) I seriously doubt there are many that would really be able to compete with what they get up to by themselves.

-- But then of course you really shouldn't feed the trolls

[fluffy]

So did anyone go to this - how did it end??

[arban]

To respond-albeit quite late...

I attended the party, and had a wonderful evening with very respectable gentlemen. My decision to attend followed this moral dilemma:
The 45th is asking for girls to attend a fancy dress 'Heaven and Hell theme'....Of course it could be just an excuse to get with us...But at the same time, if one wants to go out on the pool, why not with some respectable men?

As I am happily unavailable, I recruited two similarly taken friends to attend as well. We viewed this party as nothing more-a party with some men who have very little chance to relax. We all knew that many girls would end up with the guys, but it was not the primary goal of me or my friends.

We were picked up in St Andrews by coach-complete with punch and some officers. Upon our arrival, we were greeted by the head officer and given champagne. Party games ensued, with free drinks-alcoholic and non alcoholic- and food available. The men had gone above and beyond, turning the officer's mess into a wonderfully decorated space. The lingering fears of being taken advantage of were gone by this point, as the officers acted true to their name unless a girl initiated.

Of course, some took this opportunity to get trashed or hook up with the officers. Yet many did not, by choice and simply because it wasn't the focus of the party. Many of the men were married or uninterested anything but some good chat. I spent a wonderful hour talking to an officer and his wife!

Those who overindulged were taken care of by the girls and officers and sent home safely as early as possible. Those, like me, who stayed until the last bus to make sure everyone got back enjoyed their hospitality and had a great time.

While I found the university's use of the Sports Union to invite girls a bit insulting-only sporty girls are capable of attending an officer's party??- maybe it was simply an attempt by the officers to 1) limit attendees and 2) find women with similar interests. Sports did tend to be a large conversation topic. Either way, I left the party in a happy mood, having made several new friends and stories to tell.

[LonelyPilgrim]

Arban,

Glad to read that you had a good time and the world didn't end.

Now I shall enjoy the sweet feeling of vindication.

[Guest]

To respond-albeit quite late...

I attended the party, and had a wonderful evening with very respectable gentlemen. My decision to attend followed this moral dilemma:
The 45th is asking for girls to attend a fancy dress 'Heaven and Hell theme'....Of course it could be just an excuse to get with us...But at the same time, if one wants to go out on the pool, why not with some respectable men?

As I am happily unavailable, I recruited two similarly taken friends to attend as well. We viewed this party as nothing more-a party with some men who have very little chance to relax. We all knew that many girls would end up with the guys, but it was not the primary goal of me or my friends.

So what, it was a secondary goal? And your boyfriend was cool that you popped out to go attend a fancy dress party with a bunch of horndog army officers?

[wild_quinine]

Arban,

Thanks for posting back on this. Glad you had fun. For these kinds of whimsical discussions, interesting as they are, you almost never find out what really happens in fact. It's nice that you made the effort to let us know.

Now I shall enjoy the sweet feeling of vindication.

Then let me add the bitter after-taste of common sense: if something bad could happen, and you think that it won't, are you right if it doesn't, or just lucky?

I'll also further add: when people feel violated, they tend to keep that to themselves. So one positive report doesn't mean that nobody woke up feeling cheap and used, or that nothing worse than that happened either.

But, that's not really what we were talking about. The real point is whether or not the University should have passed on this invitation in an official capacity. I still can't see the justification.

I think that the University had no place getting involved in inviting girls out to meet young men, at the request of those young men. What century is this? Other people might disagree there, I suppose.

But there's still the point that, given that the University has disociated from the KK officially, I don't see how girls-only invitations are passable even on their own terms.

[David Bean]

As far as I can tell from the evidence on this thread, the University had nothing to do with it - the email was sent out by the AU Vice President. Now, you could argue that the AU is an arm of the University and technically it it, but in practice it seems unlikely that anyone outside the AU had anything to do with it. If a society invites a speaker to address its members, can we say that the invitation was issued by the University? It's imprecise, at the very least.