Scottish people, you are not British

[flarewearer]

Or so the ever-wise Alex Salmond infers in your name;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4612686.stm

I didn't realise that I wasn't British anymore just because I happen to have had the misfortune of being born and bred north of the border. I'm glad that the SNP have cleared this up for me, I shall now dispose of my British passport and renounce being a Briton in favour of being a citizen of the people's socialist parish council of greater Bannockburn.

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[Duggeh]

as always i can only sigh at the snp

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IMAGE:www.macintyre42.plus.com/images/tb2-100.jpg
Duggeh: Master Of Ceremonies
[s]http://www.thismanwillkillyou.com[/s]

[Al]

He doesn't imply anything of the kind.

[ParisInTheAutumn]

Exactly all he is saying is that labour rejected the idea of having st andrews as a national holiday and now they want one for 'britishness' and are giving similar reasons for it that the SNP did for St Andrews day.

Also I would like to point out that although Scottish people know they are also British hardly anyone else seems to. The term 'English' and 'British' are interchangable by most foreigners and i have to say some English people as well. If I say to foreigners 'I am British' the question to follow is usually 'where in England are you from?'

[flarewearer]

Quoting Al from 23:19, 14th Jan 2006
He doesn't imply anything of the kind.

"Britishness went bust long ago [north of the border]"

Or am I taking that out of context, and did he really mean;

"Britishness went but long ago [north of the border]"

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[Iain]

I think you'll be better off making the inference that Scotland has its own identity and there's a good number of us resent attempts to have it suppressed in favour of crappy Brit-pop culture by traitorous wretches after a stab at power in the big country.

Anyway; the Chancellor's only doing it to dupe the people of England into thinking he's standing for all of them, and isn't just going to be a Scottish Prime Minister. Some of us have realised that he's as good as English/British anyway.


I am concerned about the type of message that Salmond has put across; his tone frequently inspires comments such as those from flarewearer but this shouldn't hide the fact that in my opinion; the encouragement of "Britishness" is just another cheap attempt at "skullduggery of the people."

Have already stated to a number of people that I intend on using family ties to get an Irish passport next time I need to re-apply. This country disgusts me. Why so many people outside Scotland ask "why aren't you indepedent?" is telling something about all the pointless Unionist idiots out there.

Also, if anyone calls the SNP parochial or backward thinking; then join up and go to one of our conferences and you might actually learn something about what we plan for the country. There is nothing wrong with having pride in our past; for we've nothing to be proud of just now in Scotland.

Rant over. (Edit: I'm making an attack on people being either cynical or ignorant of the SNP; this isn't meant to be "personal" but I'm in a bad mood anyway so tough)

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http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~snpsoc

[flarewearer]

Quoting Parisintheautumn from 23:39, 14th Jan 2006
If I say to foreigners 'I am British' the question to follow is usually 'where in England are you from?'

And this is surprising considering England is the largest, most populous and closest of the home nations to most European countries?

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[flarewearer]

My point wasn't that I was in favour of Gordon Brown's attempts to wave a bit of union flag to stir up some national prid ein the name of furthering his own career and agenda, my point is that if Alex Salmond truly speaks for the people of Scotland then why the hell don't they vote his party into power? I'm as repulsed by the Labour governments lame attempts at spoon-feeding us some sort of prescribed, government sanctioned Britishness. As far as i'm concerned that's the exact opposite of what Britain stands for.

Quoting Iain from 23:41, 14th Jan 2006
Also, if anyone calls the SNP parochial or backward thinking; then join up and go to one of our conferences and you might actually learn something about what we plan for the country. Either that or you can leave and stop holding us back.

Oh I'm terribly sorry, is this a case or you're either "with us" or you can "get out?". Are we holding you back? Well i'm terribly sorry if the majority are holding back a noisy minority, but that's democracy for you, isn't it... You seem to confuse "nationalism" and "patriotism" here, it is perfectly possible to be a patriotic Scot without being a nationalist, and your "either with us or against us" attitude is precisely why more people probably don't see themselves as nationalists.

There is nothing wrong with having pride in our past; for we've nothing to be proud of just now in Scotland.

Absolutely not, and I think you'll find the majority of our great achievements in the arts, science, engineering and literature took place since the union of the crowns and parliaments.



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[DrAlex]

Plus you sent awesome families like mine to the USA.

Kudos.

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La loi est dure, mais l'aigle ne chasse pas les mouches.
http://standrews.facebook.com/profile.php?id=37100343

[Iain]

Point about the SNP not actually winning elections is the moment we take positive steps all the Unionists step up to rubbish us and unfortunately there's plenty people out there who just go in and robotically put an x in the Labour box every time. If the central belt didn't suffer this we'd be a country full of SNP and Liberal types...

I'm removing that comment from original post on leaving the country. That was flippant, from an angry mind; sick of CYNICISM, a Unionist press, a lying Government and sick that Scots Labour types have strings of power in Westminster. I didn't especically mean it that way so you can forget being nasty back. However, there's a good many English people wish the Scots would go home, mind.

Your point on patriotism and nationalism doesn't rub off on me very well; since your view of patriotism seems to be that Scotland can do well in some areas (scenery, or at a football match) but it isn't allowed to have ambition to DO things on it's own. Sure you can just say that Scotland is better off under Union but... meh.

Ok Scottish ingenuity co-incides with Union. And? Doesn't mean that we wouldn't be better off making our own way and encouraging independence in this day and age.

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[Iain]

[quote]Quoting DrAlex from 00:23, 15th Jan 2006
Plus you sent awesome families like mine to the USA.

Kudos.

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Aye, but you're back now and it wasn't me sending you away!

Meantime see my comment regarding removing the statement telling the Unionists to leave. It was rage more than anything else.

I would like to see people who are positive about Scotland staying put here; wherever they come from. The Unionists seem to think they can be positive about Scotland within the Union - I just think that's misguided.

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[DrAlex]

Quoting Iain from 00:23, 15th Jan 2006
Point about the SNP not actually winning elections is the moment we take positive steps all the Unionists step up to rubbish us...

But that's how the system works...and last I checked, the SNP, just like everyone else, weren't exactly above highlighting "the other guy's" bad points...

And what one could have inferred if only I could type tone of voice, the families thing was a joke. It was one of the things the Scots got right in their past heh heh...

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La loi est dure, mais l'aigle ne chasse pas les mouches.
http://standrews.facebook.com/profile.php?id=37100343

[flarewearer]

Quoting Iain from 00:23, 15th Jan 2006
Your point on patriotism and nationalism doesn't rub off on me very well; since your view of patriotism seems to be that Scotland can do well in some areas (scenery, or at a football match) but it isn't allowed to have ambition to DO things on it's own. Sure you can just say that Scotland is better off under Union but... meh.

You've got me completely back to front and upside down, for a start, iv'e always maintained that Scotland are dreadful at football. Secondly, I'm sick of this country constantly trying to sell itself under a banner of tartan, shortbread, whisky and "breathtaking scenery". It's patronising, condescending and makes us look like we are some sort of MacDisneyland playpark for tourists to come here and get spoonfed an incorrect hollywood-friendly version of our history.

Ok Scottish ingenuity co-incides with Union. And? Doesn't mean that we wouldn't be better off making our own way and encouraging independence in this day and age.

Your original point was that we can't be proud of the Scotland we have now but should be proud of our past. I am proud of our past, but as far as I can see we really began to achieve things and get things done after we put aside or internal squabbling and out national differences with England and began to pull in the same direction i.e. forward. I also agree with you that we haven't much to be proud of right now, and that it is down to a labour stranglehold of tax and spend with our economy propped up on a bloated and inefficient public sector. What we disagree on is how to change this, personally I don't like the 'go it alone' option and I think we can once again achieve great things and be a world-beating nation, just inside the greater sphere of Britain.

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[Iain]

True Dr.Alex; we're all up to lots of negative campaigning; it's just the weight of the Labour party and all their resources and persuasion is one hell of an obstacle to overcome.

Typical scenario:
SNP activist "So, I was wondering if you might give the SNP a shout at the next election or if there's any issues you want to talk about?"
Voter "Naw, man, ah vote Labour!"
Activist "Why do you do that, Sir?"
Voter "Ma Dad voted Labour!"
Activist "Why did he vote Labour?"
Voter "Dunno! Ah like Britain man; and see that Tony Blair, he's cool and pays my benefit cheque!"

All too often. Far far too often. I can't even start on the media and their rubbishing of the SNP.

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[Malcolm]

I'm 100% Scottish, and I hate the SNP.

Seriously, why can't we just be part of the UK instead of all this "Och aye, William Wallace" crap that gets spread about? The only reason Scottish nationalism exists is because the Scots know fine well Scotland's got bugger all going for it these days.

Gah, if only my home town of Edinburgh seceded to England, I'd be happy.

[Iain]

Methinks I'll have to post all night to maintain balance; but fear not Unionist people I shall have to die some time.

The SNP don't spread William Wallace crap. We formed because Scottish values and economics were being eroded and our argument is still ECONOMIC. Aye we have an element of our activity that is looking to the past and so on but when it comes to hard policy there's none of it. Try reading the manifesto not the propaganda...?

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[flarewearer]

Iain, please tell us what makes a Scot Scottish and different from a Briton or an Angle?

And just what makes Scotland Scotland? after all its just an arbitary line drawn on a map of Britain.

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[Iain]

Matter of opinion on all fronts but if you consider the Scots to be a sort of b*stardised mixture of various pre-existing tribes, Irish and Vikings and consider that we WERE a nation at a distant time; I think one can define Scotland genetically as opposed to the make-up of England and Wales. These things stick over time; I hope you appreciate that I've grown up to accept Scotland as an entity for whatever it contains. I hope that qualifies my lack of a decent succinct answer. (I wasn't taught SNP-propaganda from an early age; just in case you are wondering; this is a fairly new thing)

The answer would be better found by asking a non-biased expert on history and genealogy for their analysis.

What makes Scotland Scotland? You go round all people who primarily call themselves Scottish and you will have a multitude of answers. For me the simple answer is that it's not the line (Irish logic from you there - and no anti-Irish accusations I'm half Dubliner) but it's what's north of the line. "It" exists in my mind; it always has done. That's not a great answer.

Can you accept that while I love Scotland, I would use the practicality of governing five million people to their tastes and economics as the case for independence every bit as much.

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[DrAlex]

Quoting flarewearer from 00:43, 15th Jan 2006
what makes a Scot Scottish

Well, now, speaking as an American/Englander/Scot/Welshman (in that order), I dare say what makes you your nationality depends on what country/ancestry you identify with most.

Ask me in the pub and I will tell you I am British, ask Iain, and he will tell you he is Scottish.

Therein, I imagine, lies the problem between the two. Seems like a case of Texas: The Lonestar State. (Incidentally, that's why I so rarely listen to the campaignings of the SNP and Plaid Cymru).

[s]Some day I will learn to spell[/s]

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La loi est dure, mais l'aigle ne chasse pas les mouches.
http://standrews.facebook.com/profile.php?id=37100343

[flarewearer]

I like Alex's Texas analogy, it's perfectly possible to be Texan, live Texan, be proud of Texan history and want Texas ruled in a Texan way according to Texan value, but not to want Texas to be an independent nation state, and to be every bit as proud and supportive of the greater union.

It's just as possible to be Scottish, live Scottish, be proud of Scottish history and want Scotland ruled in a Scottish way by Scottish people according to their values, but not want Scotland to be an independant nation state but to be proud of it in the Union and support its' cause inside that Union.

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