A question for the unionists

[Guest]

Lots of very clever and seemingly informed arguments everywhere here. I'm certainly more educated on the issue than i was before. However for me it boils down to one quite simple fact. I like being British.
I have an English father, a Scottish mother, was born in Aberdeen and have lived just outside London.
I'm glad I'm British and fairly proud of that fact. Yet the fact remains that because I'm less vocal than avowed nationalists and because I'm willing to listen it seems as if my opinion counts for less. It seems its ok to be proud to be Scottish but the idea of Great Britain is for some reason a dirty one.
You may disagree but thats the feeling I get.

[ascii]

Quoting Tired from 19:00, 28th Nov 2006

Quoting ascii from 13:44, 28th Nov 2006
As for passports, do you need a passport to go from Ireland to the UK, or from Portugal to Spain to France to Germany to Switzerland? No. So why would there need to be passport checks on the Scottish border? To stop the smuggling of haggis and whisky?

Er... Yes. To go to Switzerland (a country not in the EU) everyone needs a passport. For some one from the UK to go between countrys such as France and Germany you don't need to have a passport, to go from france into the UK you technically do they are still borders you just don't need a visa to either live or work.

People on here really need to understand what free movement of people means. Additionally it is possible to refuse entry to the UK to particular people so long as it has a reason e.g. criminality.

My understanding of free movement may not be perfect, but your's isn't either. Switzerland's membership of the EU is irrelevant, since they have signed the Schengen treaty, my mistake was being unaware that Switzerland haven't implemented it yet.

The point I was trying to make is: given you can pass between say, Germany and Austria without needing to go through a fixed passport checkpoint, I see no reason why it couldn't be the same crossing the border between and independent Scotland and England.

[flarewearer]

Quoting Odysseus from 18:45, 28th Nov 2006

I'd assume they'd call for a referendum for the Scottish general public. Then we'd get the chance to decide for ourselves if we want to be in the United Kingdom.

Who are "we" and "ourselves"? What of the English, Welsh and Northern Irish persons, British citizens them all, who live in Scotland? Do they get to vote? Is residency in Scotland all that is required to vote on independence? Or are we talking of a situation where we have to trace our family trees back to William Wallace before we are Scottish and allowed to vote on such matters?

[hr]

[Iain]

Flarewearer, I thought I pretty much answered this. If the Scottish parliament called a referendum, then those who can vote in it are those who are presently entitled to vote in an election to the Scottish Parliament!

[hr]

http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~snpsoc

[flarewearer]

Quoting Iain from 01:43, 30th Nov 2006
Flarewearer, I thought I pretty much answered this. If the Scottish parliament called a referendum, then those who can vote in it are those who are presently entitled to vote in an election to the Scottish Parliament!

So what's all this talk of "us" and "we" and rising and being a nation again (and I don't particularly mean yourself, you know what I mean)? And another thing, when your glorious tartan & shortbread revolution comes, will those of us with the foresight not to want to renounce our British citizenship be forced to renounce it or move to England or Wales? Or can we carry on being British citizens, living in Britain, voting in British elections, having our children born as British citizens and enjoying all the other benefits of being British, or must we renounce those privileges too if we wish to carry on living in the part of our country where we were born, raised and where our families come from? Or do you have some magical solution to this so that you can renounce your claim to the above benefits while we maintain ours?

[hr]

[Iain]

I'm afraid my response Flarewearer, is "poor wee soul!" You do seem to be making it out as though being a citizen of Britain is a right and that that would be violated with independence. Fair enough if that's how you see it. But there is no magical solution. People are moving away or in to countries for economic/political reasons all the time.

If Scotland makes independence and is successful yet you've disappeared down south just because you want to be British by passport and ballot paper...

Sorry, not the most coherent reply.

[hr]

http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~snpsoc

[TCT]

Quoting Iain from 11:28, 30th Nov 2006
I'm afraid my response Flarewearer, is "poor wee soul!" You do seem to be making it out as though being a citizen of Britain is a right and that that would be violated with independence. Fair enough if that's how you see it. But there is no magical solution. People are moving away or in to countries for economic/political reasons all the time.

If Scotland makes independence and is successful yet you've disappeared down south just because you want to be British by passport and ballot paper...

Sorry, not the most coherent reply.

[hr]

http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~snpsoc

What? I have no idea whatsoever what that post is supposed to mean.

[Odysseus]

Quoting flarewearer from 00:29, 30th Nov 2006

Quoting Odysseus from 18:45, 28th Nov 2006

I'd assume they'd call for a referendum for the Scottish general public. Then we'd get the chance to decide for ourselves if we want to be in the United Kingdom.

Who are "we" and "ourselves"? What of the English, Welsh and Northern Irish persons, British citizens them all, who live in Scotland? Do they get to vote? Is residency in Scotland all that is required to vote on independence? Or are we talking of a situation where we have to trace our family trees back to William Wallace before we are Scottish and allowed to vote on such matters?

[hr]

Given that 58% of your colonial masters want to ditch us anyway, I'd suggest your whinging is irrelevant. It seems the Unionists are scared of a referendum - funny that.

[hr]

Walk into the bright lights of sorrow, oh drink a bit of wine and we both might go tommorow, my love...

[TCT]

Quoting Odysseus from 12:56, 30th Nov 2006

Quoting flarewearer from 00:29, 30th Nov 2006

Quoting Odysseus from 18:45, 28th Nov 2006

I'd assume they'd call for a referendum for the Scottish general public. Then we'd get the chance to decide for ourselves if we want to be in the United Kingdom.

Who are "we" and "ourselves"? What of the English, Welsh and Northern Irish persons, British citizens them all, who live in Scotland? Do they get to vote? Is residency in Scotland all that is required to vote on independence? Or are we talking of a situation where we have to trace our family trees back to William Wallace before we are Scottish and allowed to vote on such matters?

[hr]

Given that 58% of your colonial masters want to ditch us anyway, I'd suggest your whinging is irrelevant. It seems the Unionists are scared of a referendum - funny that.

[hr]

Walk into the bright lights of sorrow, oh drink a bit of wine and we both might go tommorow, my love...

'Colonial masters'? Odysseus you seem to be displaying the well-worn 'chip' that so many nats burden their shoulders with. Bravo.

Unionists are not scared of a referendum per se, but they may be wary of the number of misinformed voters who think with their heart, rather than their head, when voting for independence.

I was alarmed recently to hear two of my American friends, both of whom have lived and worked here for 2 or 3 years, saying they would vote for an independent Scotland "because it would be interesting to see what happens". This seems to me to be a problem - it's not an experiment you can reverse. Once it's done, it's done. That is why we need to raise the level of debate beyond acidic remarks and the invocation of the spirit of Scottish legends.

[Icarus]

Quoting Odysseus from 12:56, 30th Nov 2006


Given that 58% of your colonial masters want to ditch us anyway, I'd suggest your whinging is irrelevant. It seems the Unionists are scared of a referendum - funny that.

Unionists aren't scared of a referendum, they think that if one happened Nationalists would vote for independence because they're narrow minded and ill-informed people with no coherent argument for independence other than the fact that 'they just want it', and their irrational decision for independence would hurt us all as a whole. Funny that

[Odysseus]

Quoting TCT from 13:07, 30th Nov 2006
'Colonial masters'? Odysseus you seem to be displaying the well-worn 'chip' that so many nats burden their shoulders with. Bravo.

Unionists are not scared of a referendum per se, but they may be wary of the number of misinformed voters who think with their heart, rather than their head, when voting for independence.

I was alarmed recently to hear two of my American friends, both of whom have lived and worked here for 2 or 3 years, saying they would vote for an independent Scotland "because it would be interesting to see what happens". This seems to me to be a problem - it's not an experiment you can reverse. Once it's done, it's done. That is why we need to raise the level of debate beyond acidic remarks and the invocation of the spirit of Scottish legends.

I was joking with my above comment.

As for yours - Are you saying that you think the Scottish voter is too ignorant to decide? That arguement is typical of the New Labour approach. And to be fair, the SNP are the only ones TRYING to debate, New Labour are too busy telling us how bad the SNP are, the Tories are too busy making David Cameron calendars and the Lib Dems are barely a political party, more a group of loveable eccentrics.

If the likes of Latvia, Estonia, Iceland, Ireland, Slovakia and Luxembourg can be independent - SO CAN WE.

[hr]

Walk into the bright lights of sorrow, oh drink a bit of wine and we both might go tommorow, my love...

[Odysseus]

Quoting Icarus from 13:12, 30th Nov 2006

Quoting Odysseus from 12:56, 30th Nov 2006


Given that 58% of your colonial masters want to ditch us anyway, I'd suggest your whinging is irrelevant. It seems the Unionists are scared of a referendum - funny that.

Unionists aren't scared of a referendum, they think that if one happened Nationalists would vote for independence because they're narrow minded and ill-informed people with no coherent argument for independence other than the fact that 'they just want it', and their irrational decision for independence would hurt us all as a whole. Funny that

Ahh, so you're opposed to the democratic process when it doesn't suit you. Makes you seem kind of authoritarian, no? There are plenty of good arguements for independence, you just seem to ignorant to bother finding them. Rather sad that.

[hr]

Walk into the bright lights of sorrow, oh drink a bit of wine and we both might go tommorow, my love...

[Steveo]

Quoting Odysseus from 13:17, 30th Nov 2006
If the likes of Latvia, Estonia, Iceland, Ireland, Slovakia and Luxembourg can be independent - SO CAN WE.

Look - a guy over there jumped off a cliff, let's all follow him!

[hr]

Set your goals way too high so I can laugh when you fail.

[McK]

Quoting Odysseus from 13:17, 30th Nov 2006

Quoting TCT from 13:07, 30th Nov 2006
'Colonial masters'? Odysseus you seem to be displaying the well-worn 'chip' that so many nats burden their shoulders with. Bravo.

Unionists are not scared of a referendum per se, but they may be wary of the number of misinformed voters who think with their heart, rather than their head, when voting for independence.

I was alarmed recently to hear two of my American friends, both of whom have lived and worked here for 2 or 3 years, saying they would vote for an independent Scotland "because it would be interesting to see what happens". This seems to me to be a problem - it's not an experiment you can reverse. Once it's done, it's done. That is why we need to raise the level of debate beyond acidic remarks and the invocation of the spirit of Scottish legends.

I was joking with my above comment.

As for yours - Are you saying that you think the Scottish voter is too ignorant to decide? That arguement is typical of the New Labour approach. And to be fair, the SNP are the only ones TRYING to debate, New Labour are too busy telling us how bad the SNP are, the Tories are too busy making David Cameron calendars and the Lib Dems are barely a political party, more a group of loveable eccentrics.

If the likes of Latvia, Estonia, Iceland, Ireland, Slovakia and Luxembourg can be independent - SO CAN WE.

[hr]

Walk into the bright lights of sorrow, oh drink a bit of wine and we both might go tommorow, my love...

That is the worst argument I have heard. If a possibility exists you must therefore choose it. Is that right?

You haven't put across a single reason other than 'we should because we can'. I find that sad in itself.

[Odysseus]

Quoting Steveo from 13:23, 30th Nov 2006

Quoting Odysseus from 13:17, 30th Nov 2006
If the likes of Latvia, Estonia, Iceland, Ireland, Slovakia and Luxembourg can be independent - SO CAN WE.

Look - a guy over there jumped off a cliff, let's all follow him!

Look - There are other countries who've gained home rule and are doing well, lets follow suit.

8 Pages of 'debate' and all the Unionists can do is tell us how ignorant and economically weak Scotland is. Wow, you're really convincing us. Can we not have some positive reasons for Unionism?



[hr]

Walk into the bright lights of sorrow, oh drink a bit of wine and we both might go tommorow, my love...

[Steveo]

Quoting Odysseus from 13:30, 30th Nov 2006

Quoting Steveo from 13:23, 30th Nov 2006

Quoting Odysseus from 13:17, 30th Nov 2006
If the likes of Latvia, Estonia, Iceland, Ireland, Slovakia and Luxembourg can be independent - SO CAN WE.

Look - a guy over there jumped off a cliff, let's all follow him!

Look - There are other countries who've gained home rule and are doing well, lets follow suit.

8 Pages of 'debate' and all the Unionists can do is tell us how ignorant and economically weak Scotland is. Wow, you're really convincing us. Can we not have some positive reasons for Unionism?

You don't need a reason to keep the status quo, but I'll give you one:

BECAUSE IT WORKS FUCKING WELL FOR BOTH COUNTRIES CONCERNED.

[hr]

Set your goals way too high so I can laugh when you fail.

[Odysseus]

Quoting Steveo from 13:35, 30th Nov 2006
You don't need a reason to keep the status quo, but I'll give you one:

BECAUSE IT WORKS FUCKING WELL FOR BOTH COUNTRIES CONCERNED.

[hr]
.

That'll be why Scotland is one of the unhealthiest nations in Europe, or why our economy grows at a much slower rate? Or why we get dragged into wars our population doesn't support? Face it, Scotland is not 'doing well' out of the Union in the modern world. Fair enough, from the 18th to 20th century, Scotland benefited, but the new seat of power is in Brussels and Scotland needs more representation there.

New Labour needs our oil money to keep their military interests alive in the middle east. The only reason these fuckers show any interest in us is because the Scottish vote practically keeps them in power. I'm waiting for someone to bore us with the Barrnet Formula, even though it doesn't take into account the Billions per year we lose in terms of Oil revenue.

And I'm STILL waiting on some decent arguements. And, if you hadn't noticed Steveo, that was the original purpose of this thread.



[hr]

Walk into the bright lights of sorrow, oh drink a bit of wine and we both might go tommorow, my love...

[Fíníneach Cróga]

Quoting Steveo from 13:23, 30th Nov 2006

Quoting Odysseus from 13:17, 30th Nov 2006
If the likes of Latvia, Estonia, Iceland, Ireland, Slovakia and Luxembourg can be independent - SO CAN WE.

Look - a guy over there jumped off a cliff, let's all follow him!

[hr]



Set your goals way too high so I can laugh when you fail.

What a fucking stupid analogy.

Whilst it may be difficult projecting how Scotland may exist as an independent nation through speculation and theory, it does no harm in comparing it to those who have, in relatively recent history, undergone a similar process.

[Icarus]

Quoting Odysseus from 13:19, 30th Nov 2006


Ahh, so you're opposed to the democratic process when it doesn't suit you. Makes you seem kind of authoritarian, no? There are plenty of good arguements for independence, you just seem to ignorant to bother finding them. Rather sad that.

Of course I'm not. I think if the majority of the population want independence then they should have it. The Wilsonian notion that the state should reflect the will for the people underpins the entire justification for our system of government. Of course if the majority of the people want their own state they should get it. All I'm saying is if the majority of Scottish people are going to vote for independence, do it on logical, rational grounds. Cut all the anti-English rhetoric. Get over the chip on your shoulder. Don't whinge about how England's stealing your wealth when in fact you get more money from the union than you put into it. And don't say you're one of the poorest nations in Europe when in fact you're part of one of the largest economies in the entire world. I believe if Scotland wants independence then fine it should get it, just like Northern Ireland should be united if the majority of the people want it. There wouldn't be any justice otherwise. But if you're going to seek independence, do so on rational grounds that make sense, not just that you want to see a saltire flying in place of the union jack.

[McK]

Quoting Odysseus from 13:47, 30th Nov 2006

Quoting Steveo from 13:35, 30th Nov 2006
You don't need a reason to keep the status quo, but I'll give you one:

BECAUSE IT WORKS FUCKING WELL FOR BOTH COUNTRIES CONCERNED.

[hr]
.

That'll be why Scotland is one of the unhealthiest nations in Europe, or why our economy grows at a much slower rate? Or why we get dragged into wars our population doesn't support? Face it, Scotland is not 'doing well' out of the Union in the modern world. Fair enough, from the 18th to 20th century, Scotland benefited, but the new seat of power is in Brussels and Scotland needs more representation there.

New Labour needs our oil money to keep their military interests alive in the middle east. The only reason these fuckers show any interest in us is because the Scottish vote practically keeps them in power. I'm waiting for someone to bore us with the Barrnet Formula, even though it doesn't take into account the Billions per year we lose in terms of Oil revenue.

And I'm STILL waiting on some decent arguements. And, if you hadn't noticed Steveo, that was the original purpose of this thread.



[hr]

Walk into the bright lights of sorrow, oh drink a bit of wine and we both might go tommorow, my love...

Well, I answered ascii's question on the first page of this thread. I consider my arguments to be fairly coherent.

Secondly, Scotland's problems are not necessarily the fault of the union. The fact that it is an unhealthy nation is not the fault of London, it is in part due to an attitude which has long been part of the Scottish mentality, I think. How can you blame the union, for example, for the popularity of a 'Glasgow salad'?

What strikes me about the pro-independence argument is the idea that just because *some* other small countries do well enough then it is assumed that a) Scotland will, and b) there will be an easy, almost magical process by which this success is achieved.

Also, I must say, (and this is by no means true of all nationalists on this board) there is an undercurrent of insularity which I personally find unappealing in the extreme. Why be so introspective in a time of globalisation? What on earth is the point of creating more boundaries in an era when it really doesn't matter?

IF your answer to that is one which mentions about national identity I fail to see what real independence will do for Scottish identity, which is already so powerful and has been for a very long time. I am not convinced - nor should anyone be - that political autonomy equates to a real personal sense of liberty, except in the case of the most deluded.