The Christian Union

[Rilla]

[s]Mr Comedy wrote on 23:16, 29th Nov 2004:
What if they were right?
Far from being surprised that someone who believes in The Bible and believes that there is an easy solution to a major problem, I would question the sincerity of anyone who did anything otherwise.


So Hitler sincerely believed that jews should be gassed and acted on that - he was totally justified because he "believed" he was doing the right thing.
Or an animal rights protestor "believes" they are doing the right thing protecting animals by attacking a scientists home and family?

I know these are extreme examples, but really - just cos someone believes they are doing the right thing does not give them a right to behave any way they want to.

[hr]
Anything War can do, Peace can do better

[womble chris]

so, just to get this straight in my mind:
you say:
the point is that entry requirements (I assume that we are talking about Christianity here) are not based on your track record.

so what, you can be a complete rude obnoxious twat and if you say 'i believe' and say 'sorry, forgive me' then you get in to heaven? this sounds like a doddle to me, so i can say to him on my deathbed, 'whoops, i was to busy to worship you all those sunday mornings as i couldnt be arsed to get out of bed, forgive me please'??

So you can do what you want, although most people are grateful enough to try and abide by the instructions.
Doesn't mean that they do, though.

wow, thats great devotion to your religion - ill try, but if it doesnt it is very convienient, ill just say 'forgive me god' and god will be - 'hey, dont worry about ignoring what ive instructed you to do, thats fine by me, ive just created this world for you to live and now your doing whatever you want and then saying forgive me' and everything will be fine....if i was god id be pretty offended

[Mr Comedy]

[s]womble chris wrote on 23:46, 29th Nov 2004:

so what, you can be a complete rude obnoxious twat and if you say 'i believe' and say 'sorry, forgive me' then you get in to heaven? this sounds like a doddle to me, so i can say to him on my deathbed, 'whoops, i was to busy to worship you all those sunday mornings as i couldnt be arsed to get out of bed, forgive me please'??

In essence, yes.
However, I would point out that most Christians would say that it is the best choice they ever made, and if possible, they would have made it earlier.
Also very few people have a 'deathbed'. If you do, then go you. But most people don't have a whole film like dying experience, where they have plenty of time to figure things out.
But you aren't wrong.

wow, thats great devotion to your religion - ill try, but if it doesnt it is very convienient, ill just say 'forgive me god' and god will be - 'hey, dont worry about ignoring what ive instructed you to do, thats fine by me, ive just created this world for you to live and now your doing whatever you want and then saying forgive me' and everything will be fine....if i was god id be pretty offended


Firstly, I am eminently grateful that you aren't God.
Secondly, I would point out that Christians believe that these are actually the best way to live.
So if they are, then breaking them has negative repercussions. For example, if you steal, you may be sent to jail.
But it doesn't change the fact that you are going to Heaven anyway. You could in theory be Hitler, and still go to Heaven. Doesn't go down well with people, but that's how it is.

However Christians have a change of heart and mind when they become Christians, and find that they want to behave in the way that the Lord has said is best.
That is why some Christians are annoyingly good. Although they all slip up, most of them actively strive to get better.
You may think that is unfair, but that is how Christianity works - it is not based upon how good you are. There is a part in the Bible about "rewards in Heaven" (essentially good behaviour awards), but everyone who is a Christian will be there.

[benedict]

how about Terry?

[Mr Comedy]

[s]Rilla wrote on 23:20, 29th Nov 2004:
[s]Mr Comedy wrote on 23:16, 29th Nov 2004:[i]
What if they were right?
Far from being surprised that someone who believes in The Bible and believes that there is an easy solution to a major problem, I would question the sincerity of anyone who did anything otherwise.


So Hitler sincerely believed that jews should be gassed and acted on that - he was totally justified because he "believed" he was doing the right thing.
Or an animal rights protestor "believes" they are doing the right thing protecting animals by attacking a scientists home and family?

I know these are extreme examples, but really - just cos someone believes they are doing the right thing does not give them a right to behave any way they want to.
[/i]

To put it bluntly, I do not think that your examples hold (although I do find it intensely fascinating that all arguments about faith involve Hitler).

Christians are not gassing Jews or attacking scientists. However, there is a right to free speech in society, and these people exercise it.

If we went down your logical path, what right do you have to tell me that Christians are wrong in their actions, or the CU is?
Let me tell you what I think.

I am a Christian, and what I don't like is the fact that I am getting along with my life when someone decides to tell me that Christians are pilloks (sic).
If a Christian cannot tell you that you are wrong, then why can a non-Christian do otherwise?
What right do you have that I don't, to say something is wrong?

Also, let's not get down this track of "something can be right for you".

If I believe that Jesus Christ died for sins, either he did, or he didn't.
There is no middle ground.

Also if I believe that there is a place called Heaven, then logically there either is or isn't.
Again, no middle ground.

If I believe that the only way to Heaven is through Jesus Christ, and everyone else is condemmed to Hell, then either I am right, or I am not.
No half-way house.

Again, Hitler believed that Jews needed to be gassed.
Right or wrong?

Some animal protesters believe that breaking the law is justified to protect animals.
Right or wrong.

If you told someone "Hitler was a bad man, and you must believe it. There is strong evidence for this. If you believe that Hitler was a good person, then you are wrong", I could see your point, and see why you are saying it. I could see that there is a benefit in you telling people that he is wrong.
Equally, I respect the right of the person to say, "no, I don't agree". I may think that he is a few sandwiches short of a picnic.

Another example.
Let's say I am walking towards a cliff.
You come up to me and say "You are going to walk over a cliff, and are walking the wrong way".
I say "It's my right not to hear that, and I can't stand it when people tell me how to live my life".
Then you retort, "The sign over there says 'Danger - Cliff!'. There is a cliff whether you like it or not".
I say "Leave me alone - I don't want to hear it".

Are you right to warn me?
Are you right to try to persuade me?

You see that there is a danger, and attempt to warn me of it. Instead of saying "sod you, asshole", you attempt to tell me again.

And here is the fundamental clash.
Christians believe in Heaven and Hell.
They believe that if you aren't going to one you are going to the other, and the idea of that terrifies them. I cannot see still how anyone who says that they don't want to interfere with people, and are quite happy having their (figurative) blood on their hands can be happy with that.
I can't see how anyone calls themselves a Christian, and therefore believes that there is a God who can save them is content with the knowledge that their friends will be going to Hell, and sits on their arse and watches them.
I can however see that someone who believes this to be the truth will stand in the pissing rain for hours to tell even one person about it. I can see that as a valid opinion.
That my friend, is understandable.

[Rilla]

[s]Mr Comedy wrote on 00:29, 30th Nov 2004:
I am a Christian, and what I don't like is the fact that I am getting along with my life when someone decides to tell me that Christians are pilloks (sic).


I am also a Christian - I never said that Christians were pilloks - I said that members of the Christian Union society who try and convince me they know better than me how to live my life are pilloks. And i stand by that.


[hr]
Anything War can do, Peace can do better

[flarewearer]

I said that members of the Christian Union society who try and convince me they know better than me how to live my life are pilloks.


Anyone who does that is a pillock anyway regardless of the religious can of worms...

[hr]
* 9 out of 10 cannibals agree;
"vegetarians taste BETTER"

[Mr Comedy]

[s]Rilla wrote on 00:32, 30th Nov 2004:
[s]Mr Comedy wrote on 00:29, 30th Nov 2004:[i]
I am a Christian, and what I don't like is the fact that I am getting along with my life when someone decides to tell me that Christians are pilloks (sic).


I am also a Christian - I never said that Christians were pilloks - I said that members of the Christian Union society who try and convince me they know better than me how to live my life are pilloks. And i stand by that.
[/i]

Alright.
You stand by your right to call me a pillok.
I will stand by my right to anyone how to live their life, and that the only way to heaven is through Jesus Christ.

If you can stand by your right, then I can do so also. If I am not allowed my right, then neither are you.

So by your own omission, there is nothing wrong with people telling you how to live your life, as you have reserved the right to call me a pillok.

You don't like me doing what I do.
I don't like you calling me a pillok.
Deal with it.

[benedict]

'However Christians have a change of heart and mind when they become Christians, and find that they want to behave in the way that the Lord has said is best.
That is why some Christians are annoyingly good. Although they all slip up, most of them actively strive to get better.
You may think that is unfair, but that is how Christianity works - it is not based upon how good you are. There is a part in the Bible about "rewards in Heaven" (essentially good behaviour awards), but everyone who is a Christian will be there.'

i wonder what Christians make of agnostics who experience feelings which very much seem to mirror the feeling described by Christians.

the quoted paragraph seems quite familiar to me. has fuck all to do with me being Christian for the fact that i'm not (as far as i know).

[benedict]

'but everyone who is a Christian will be there'

this line never fails to bemuse me. why don't they just let everyone in. why the need for religious discrimination. if you're brought up in the Hindu faith & that's what you believe & yet you live a life of honesty & sincerity you don't get your free pass into heaven.

[Haunted]

There must be some sort of underlying human need for faith. It is not essential for survival and of course you dont see it in any animals, so it is purely a human thing.
But just what is it that drives someone to dedicate their life to a piece of text or any ideology?
For those of us born into relgion the matter is simplified somewhat through the process of being nutured into those beliefs.

[benedict]

'It is not essential for survival'

i beleive it is for many. if i'd ever been 100% atheist i doubt i'd have lived past my teenage years. many humans need faith in order to keep going. quite possible that it's simply another survival tool.

not many other animals as far as we know have the intelligence to contemplate their own existence so maybe that's a reason for not seeing it amongst other animals. i wouldn't surprised to see religious monkeys before time though.

[Al]

[s]Mr Comedy wrote on 23:06, 29th Nov 2004:
"Insight", you complain that the Bible is not true because it has been altered (which there is no evidence for, and actually is totally impossible)


But the Bible has been altered. To use only one example - the ending of St Mark's Gospel. The oldest surviving version ends abruptly. Later, someone has tagged on an additional couple of verses to try to make it more "upbeat".

[hr]
Life is too important to be taken seriously.

[macgamer]

By "temporal punishment" I mean of course "Purgatory" where you are clensed of all the sins forgiven at "confession".

Time spent "in" purgatory can be remitted through acts of penance and charity in this life, which provide partial indulgence.

You can get plenary indulgences in certain conditions, I suggest you read the small print in the terms and conditions - "Catechism of the Catholic Church".

Repentance is not as easy and as matter of fact as Christians might at first think!

[Insight]

Apparently, purgatory was an idea incorporated into the Catholic faith in medieval times: since most church goers were very wealthy merchants and aristocratic classes above, there were worries about their vast wealth, considering the parables outlining what happens to the minted ones in the afterlife (they will have not v.much) and the poor people (they get q. a lot)!

Before anyone jumps on me, demanding sources, my Catholic RE teacher with degrees in Divinity and Theology told me this.

In response to Mr.Comedy - surely if the Bible has been modified and adapted to suit either popes or society's beiefs at the time, it is necessary now, to consider a rethink on interpretation of the texts? When I said "why should they rework their faith to suit a bunch of leftys" or whatever, I should've noted is that although many would argue to defend the faith, many don't realise that the words written 2000 years ago aren't quite the words we hear in church now - however, most of the ideas are still there (as I mentioned before; love, sacrifice, be nice). I find a lot of what is preached from the lectern missing from sacred texts, but more in keeping with the preist's own political and moral faith. Sorry - but an education in divinity may give one the right to speak with some authority, but at the end of the day - they are still just men, and men can be very wrong. We are no longer told how to love, but how to spot those who aren't up to scratch - in my experience, as wth many others I know.

Also - at what point did I say the Bible is not true? I can't find it. I still retain a semblence of my faith, but find it hard to practice as nearly every week
I am attacked from the pulpit (not directly ME) - as recently observedby my recent attempt to have a crack at Mass again over summer.

Editorama: Sorry if that's all garbled - my head's all fuzzy.

[niall]

[s]Rilla wrote on 00:32, 30th Nov 2004:
[s]Mr Comedy wrote on 00:29, 30th Nov 2004:[i]
I am a Christian, and what I don't like is the fact that I am getting along with my life when someone decides to tell me that Christians are pilloks (sic).


I am also a Christian - I never said that Christians were pilloks - I said that members of the Christian Union society who try and convince me they know better than me how to live my life are pilloks. And i stand by that.

[/i]

i have to agree with Rilla here, i'm a christian too, but i despise the way some CUs act in trying to get people to come to faith.


on the grounds of equal opertunities, If you are a member of the Church of Scotland then you cant be a member of the St Andrews CU (by the CU's consitution)

[Zombie Sheep]

[s]niall wrote on 11:24, 30th Nov 2004:
on the grounds of equal opertunities, If you are a member of the Church of Scotland then you cant be a member of the St Andrews CU (by the CU's consitution)


Are you sure? If you are an affiliated society (which I guess they are), I thought you had to let anyone and everyone join?

[Rilla]

[s]Zombie Sheep wrote on 13:30, 30th Nov 2004:
Are you sure? If you are an affiliated society (which I guess they are), I thought you had to let anyone and everyone join?


They are not an affiliated society - you have to sign a form to join saying that you believe in God or something - and if you don't sign it then you're not allowed to join.
Any society (also the kk) which doesn't allow certain members of the university to join (ie non believers or women) cannot be affiliated.


[hr]
Anything War can do, Peace can do better

[Miz Manda]

I remember someone telling me that Catholics also can't sign the creed of the CU. I'm not sure why but I just had a look at their website and the emphasis seems to be on faith and grace etc excluding the value of acts.

[hr]Any act of anti-social insanity is immediately sanctified by the magic word 'charity'. As someone once said, if Hitler had invaded Poland 'for Spina Bifida' then everyone would have just let him get on with it.

[Gubbins]

[s]Mr Comedy wrote on 00:29, 30th Nov 2004:
Another example.
Let's say I am walking towards a cliff.

Ok, let's take a different example. How about one that considers that there is a wider choice between being Christian/non-Christian.

Ok, say I'm an agnostic, or an atheist, for the purposes of this argument it doesn't matter which.

I'm walking along, minding my own business.

Up comes Mr. Religious Zealot #1 (we'll ignore which faith he's from - it doesn't matter). He tells me there's a cliff ahead of me, but to my right, there's a chest of treasure. I thank him and turn right.

So I'm walking along, minding my own business again, looking for this treasure chest, when up comes Mr. Religious Zealot #2. He tells me that there's nothing in the direction I'm going but a cliff, although to my right, there's a pot of gold. Figuring I must have lost my way somewhere, I thank him and turn right.

So I keep walking, and I'm approached by Mr. Religious Zealot #3. Surprisingly enough, he tells me the same thing. At this point I get curious and ask, "How do you know there's a cliff?"

"Because I have been told so," he replies.

"And how do you know there's a pot of gold?"

"Because I have been told so," he says again.

"But have you walked over this cliff yourself, or have you held this treasure?" I query him.

"No, but I know it is there."

"Have you even seen it?" I ask.

"No, but I was told it was there by someone I trust."

"But the people back there told me that the cliff and the treasure were in a different direction."

"Well they are wrong. I would not trust them," he states.

"I see," I reply. I thank him for his concern, and make my way in my original direction. Will I find a cliff or a pot of gold? Who knows, but it's better to have fun trying than to walk around in circles trying to do what everyone thinks you should.

The moral of the story? You can't please all of the people all of the time.

And that is why I wish that anyone intent on converting me to whatever would leave me alone - we've heard it all before. If I'm going to be convinced I'm walking the wrong way, it's going to take more than just telling me so to make me believe that.... Phew, that was a bit of a marathon!