1. Drinks ARE cheaper at union's for other universities who are affiliated to the NUS. Edinburgh was running a regular 10p vodka night last year, and I believe that has turned into three vodkas for a pound this year. Admittedly it is a larger university, but it's also a larger city with commercial clubs to compete with.
2. The Bop on a Friday night nearly sold out every week at the end of last semester: £3 x 1000 = £3000 a week plus what the bars are making. Where does this go? Promotions? Not seen any of them recently. Prizes/giveaways? A few shitty posters and free promo T-Shirts. top class DJs? Erm, nope all run by students for free (cracking job guys). So where's it going?
Answer - £36,000 a year goes to pay the wages of three students to waste time writing press releases backing up the principal, send emails each week with the same tired adverts in to every student in the uni, and generally achieve nothing.
3. Next time you are in the Union, look around for little things which make it shit - peeling paint, broken door catches, trailing wires, missing ceiling tiles. Then think how long it would take to sort them out. A day for the whole lot and it'd cost well under a hundred quid. So what are the sabbaticals doing? See point 3.
4. Who is going to answer this posting? For £12,000 a year, I would expect that our sabbaticals might have time to read the sinner and see what the students opinions are. Perhaps even respond to them. I would be more than happy to hear where the money goes, but because no-one wants to tell us I am suspicious.
Before people answer this with another vague answer or a knee-jerk put down, take the time to think about my points, but please give me you opinions because this isn't just supposed to be a rant.
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Re:
by an ex-sab on Thu Feb 06, 2003 10:59 pm
[s]Unregisted User curious wrote:
1. Drinks ARE cheaper at union's for other universities who are affiliated to the NUS. Edinburgh was running a regular 10p vodka night last year, and I believe that has turned into three vodkas for a pound this year. Admittedly it is a larger university, but it's also a larger city with commercial clubs to compete with.
Edinburgh is not affilited to the NUS. It buys its beer from the same source as us, at the same prices. Interestingly when we ran doubles for 60p we were criticised in some quarters for encouraging freshers to descend into alcoholism. Sometimes you can't win. Edinburgh gets more people through its Union doors, hence the reason it can make less money per drink on its bar.
2. The Bop on a Friday night nearly sold out every week at the end of last semester: £3 x 1000 = £3000 a week plus what the bars are making. Where does this go? Promotions? Not seen any of them recently. Prizes/giveaways? A few shitty posters and free promo T-Shirts. top class DJs? Erm, nope all run by students for free (cracking job guys). So where's it going?
Answer - £36,000 a year goes to pay the wages of three students to waste time writing press releases backing up the principal, send emails each week with the same tired adverts in to every student in the uni, and generally achieve nothing.
The voice of a cynic. I was that cynical once, and decided to do something about it. The bar cash doesn't feed directly into the bar - so the bop money doesnt go directly back into promotions. The breweries help us with promotions depending on the amount of booze that we sell - so the more you drink, the more promotions the bar can run (note - I am not promoting alcoholism re: last point)
The money from all the trading operations is used to find the Union activities - regrettably the UNiversity does not give us enough to fund all the societies etc. so we have to use some of our own income.
In response to the sabs achieving nothing - what do you want them to achieve.... this thread has had several complaints, but nothing specific enough that someone today in the Union could act upon.
3. Next time you are in the Union, look around for little things which make it shit - peeling paint, broken door catches, trailing wires, missing ceiling tiles. Then think how long it would take to sort them out. A day for the whole lot and it'd cost well under a hundred quid. So what are the sabbaticals doing? See point 3.
I think your pricing is a little out, but I do agree with the point - one of the reasons that people treat the union like sh*t is that it often looks like it. Perhaps we should up the cost of a pint by 5p to recover the costs of all the damage? WHat would you prefer?
4. Who is going to answer this posting? For £12,000 a year, I would expect that our sabbaticals might have time to read the sinner and see what the students opinions are. Perhaps even respond to them. I would be more than happy to hear where the money goes, but because no-one wants to tell us I am suspicious.
THe danger in sabs responding here is that then you get a bit of overload. If this is genuine, then take your point directly - in a letter followed by a meeting, or to a Union meeting. I was more than happy to talk to anybody, and I imagine that the current crop are the same...
Before people answer this with another vague answer or a knee-jerk put down, take the time to think about my points, but please give me you opinions because this isn't just supposed to be a rant.
I hope this isn't too vague - but some of us have to work 9-5 (ish) these days......
1. Drinks ARE cheaper at union's for other universities who are affiliated to the NUS. Edinburgh was running a regular 10p vodka night last year, and I believe that has turned into three vodkas for a pound this year. Admittedly it is a larger university, but it's also a larger city with commercial clubs to compete with.
Edinburgh is not affilited to the NUS. It buys its beer from the same source as us, at the same prices. Interestingly when we ran doubles for 60p we were criticised in some quarters for encouraging freshers to descend into alcoholism. Sometimes you can't win. Edinburgh gets more people through its Union doors, hence the reason it can make less money per drink on its bar.
2. The Bop on a Friday night nearly sold out every week at the end of last semester: £3 x 1000 = £3000 a week plus what the bars are making. Where does this go? Promotions? Not seen any of them recently. Prizes/giveaways? A few shitty posters and free promo T-Shirts. top class DJs? Erm, nope all run by students for free (cracking job guys). So where's it going?
Answer - £36,000 a year goes to pay the wages of three students to waste time writing press releases backing up the principal, send emails each week with the same tired adverts in to every student in the uni, and generally achieve nothing.
The voice of a cynic. I was that cynical once, and decided to do something about it. The bar cash doesn't feed directly into the bar - so the bop money doesnt go directly back into promotions. The breweries help us with promotions depending on the amount of booze that we sell - so the more you drink, the more promotions the bar can run (note - I am not promoting alcoholism re: last point)
The money from all the trading operations is used to find the Union activities - regrettably the UNiversity does not give us enough to fund all the societies etc. so we have to use some of our own income.
In response to the sabs achieving nothing - what do you want them to achieve.... this thread has had several complaints, but nothing specific enough that someone today in the Union could act upon.
3. Next time you are in the Union, look around for little things which make it shit - peeling paint, broken door catches, trailing wires, missing ceiling tiles. Then think how long it would take to sort them out. A day for the whole lot and it'd cost well under a hundred quid. So what are the sabbaticals doing? See point 3.
I think your pricing is a little out, but I do agree with the point - one of the reasons that people treat the union like sh*t is that it often looks like it. Perhaps we should up the cost of a pint by 5p to recover the costs of all the damage? WHat would you prefer?
4. Who is going to answer this posting? For £12,000 a year, I would expect that our sabbaticals might have time to read the sinner and see what the students opinions are. Perhaps even respond to them. I would be more than happy to hear where the money goes, but because no-one wants to tell us I am suspicious.
THe danger in sabs responding here is that then you get a bit of overload. If this is genuine, then take your point directly - in a letter followed by a meeting, or to a Union meeting. I was more than happy to talk to anybody, and I imagine that the current crop are the same...
Before people answer this with another vague answer or a knee-jerk put down, take the time to think about my points, but please give me you opinions because this isn't just supposed to be a rant.
I hope this isn't too vague - but some of us have to work 9-5 (ish) these days......
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an ex-sab
Reply to curious
by Guest on Thu Feb 06, 2003 11:20 pm
You make some interesting points, with the odd factual innaccuracy...
1. Edinburgh University Students' Association is not affiliated to the NUS, it is a member of Northern Services just like us. It has approximately 4 times the number of students and has something like 8 union buildings scattered around Edinburgh (including the nightclub at Potterow which is open to the public 7 days a week). It receives a grant in the region of £1.4 million from it's University (compared to our £180,000 odd) and makes a fortune as it holds the franchise for all catering throughout the University. It is Premier League to our West Highland League in terms of revenue potential and can hence on occasions offer vodka for 10p a pint.
2. The Bop and Bar pay for just about everything else that the Union provides - a large proportion goes on funding of student societies (approximately £12,000), running a late bus costs about £5000 a year, wages for all the union staff (approximately 100 people), most of whom earn nothing more than the minimum wage take up a large propoortion of income. The assertion that the Bop has no expenditure associated with it is not true - The sound system cost c £15,000 and the intelligent lighting another £20,000 - all of this equipment needs to be maintained and repairs and maintenance costs are severe. About £300 a month goes on buying new music and the Union has to pay in the region of £2,000 a year for a Performing Rights License. Sky TV does not come cheap - approximately £250 a month due to the size of the membership. This is all before you take in to account the costs associated with sorting out after the ritual trashing that Venue 1 receives on a weekly basis. The Union's finances are tightly monitored by a dedicated team of permanent staff who advise the Board of the Association on how best to spend the Union's money. Less than 15 years ago the Association was bankrupt, it now operates within one of the tightest budgets of any Union in the country and returns a small operating surplus each year.
3. The sabbaticals are not paid by the Union, they are funded by the University and are technically university staff. Your point about tidying up the place is a valid one however - starting with the toilets would be a good idea...
Hope some of these answer your points - of course the best way to get your point accross is to go to the Union and talk to the sabbaticals yourself - you'll find that they are normal students who work very hard doing a tough job. Incidentally the annual accounts of the Association are a public document - every student can go to the General Office and request a copy - not the most exciting read of all time but it will open your eyes to the surprising level of income and expenditure that the Union deals with.
P.S. The answer to the origianl question on this thread is simple - Charles Clarke.
1. Edinburgh University Students' Association is not affiliated to the NUS, it is a member of Northern Services just like us. It has approximately 4 times the number of students and has something like 8 union buildings scattered around Edinburgh (including the nightclub at Potterow which is open to the public 7 days a week). It receives a grant in the region of £1.4 million from it's University (compared to our £180,000 odd) and makes a fortune as it holds the franchise for all catering throughout the University. It is Premier League to our West Highland League in terms of revenue potential and can hence on occasions offer vodka for 10p a pint.
2. The Bop and Bar pay for just about everything else that the Union provides - a large proportion goes on funding of student societies (approximately £12,000), running a late bus costs about £5000 a year, wages for all the union staff (approximately 100 people), most of whom earn nothing more than the minimum wage take up a large propoortion of income. The assertion that the Bop has no expenditure associated with it is not true - The sound system cost c £15,000 and the intelligent lighting another £20,000 - all of this equipment needs to be maintained and repairs and maintenance costs are severe. About £300 a month goes on buying new music and the Union has to pay in the region of £2,000 a year for a Performing Rights License. Sky TV does not come cheap - approximately £250 a month due to the size of the membership. This is all before you take in to account the costs associated with sorting out after the ritual trashing that Venue 1 receives on a weekly basis. The Union's finances are tightly monitored by a dedicated team of permanent staff who advise the Board of the Association on how best to spend the Union's money. Less than 15 years ago the Association was bankrupt, it now operates within one of the tightest budgets of any Union in the country and returns a small operating surplus each year.
3. The sabbaticals are not paid by the Union, they are funded by the University and are technically university staff. Your point about tidying up the place is a valid one however - starting with the toilets would be a good idea...
Hope some of these answer your points - of course the best way to get your point accross is to go to the Union and talk to the sabbaticals yourself - you'll find that they are normal students who work very hard doing a tough job. Incidentally the annual accounts of the Association are a public document - every student can go to the General Office and request a copy - not the most exciting read of all time but it will open your eyes to the surprising level of income and expenditure that the Union deals with.
P.S. The answer to the origianl question on this thread is simple - Charles Clarke.
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Guest
Way, way back many years ago
by Guest on Sat Feb 08, 2003 3:16 pm
Is it true that St A's was a member of the NUS until the early 70's?
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Guest
NUS former presidents that are now MP's and have all voted for tuition fees.
by ex-sab on Mon Feb 10, 2003 5:45 pm
[s]Unregisted User wrote on 20:51, 3rd Feb 2003:
P.S. The answer to the origianl question on this thread is simple - Charles Clarke.
Yes, and Phil Woolas, and Jim Murphy, and Lorna Fitzgerald, and Jack Straw, and Stephen Twigg. Bit dated this little factoid, but interesting nevertheless.
P.S. The answer to the origianl question on this thread is simple - Charles Clarke.
Yes, and Phil Woolas, and Jim Murphy, and Lorna Fitzgerald, and Jack Straw, and Stephen Twigg. Bit dated this little factoid, but interesting nevertheless.
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ex-sab
Re:
by Rennie on Mon Feb 10, 2003 5:52 pm
What's so wrong about tuition fees for the people that can afford it anyway? I support the Government's new plans to increase tuition fees to the higher wage earners, and at the same time re-introduce grants to the poorest few students. The £10,000 limit however imposed on the parents of students for the grant is a bit too low a figure to reach the poorest students, but still, i think the raising of tuition fees is a good thing, if the money goes back into improving the university.
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Rennie
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Re:
by music on Tue Feb 11, 2003 1:10 am
Regarding the union spending,what,300 pounds a month on music...i know a few people who'd gladly dj every weekend and who'd buy their own vinyl. It's definitely about time that we had a bop in venue one with music other than that fromage we get every weekend.......i was horrified to hear some contemporary pop music being played at a 90s Bop...we need CHANGE!!!!
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music
Re:
by Cola Cube on Tue Feb 11, 2003 1:48 pm
What's so wrong about tuition fees for the people that can afford it anyway? I support the Government's new plans to increase tuition fees to the higher wage earners, and at the same time re-introduce grants to the poorest few students. The £10,000 limit however imposed on the parents of students for the grant is a bit too low a figure to reach the poorest students, but still, i think the raising of tuition fees is a good thing, if the money goes back into improving the university.
Bad idea. Works out well for those who have literally no money but those that are lumped in with the middle class people because there parents get a decent wage would get totally screwed over. People don't realise that just because your parents get what looks like a lot of money, if your not actually rich it all goes on the mortgage, bills, car expenses and your siblings.
I'm lucky my stepdad didn't legally adopt me or the loan I would have been entitled to wouldn't have been enough for me to afford University, never mind if I hah had to pay tuition fees on top of that.
The proposed tuition fees scheme could work well at the extreme ends of the scale but those in the middle would have an extemely rough deal.
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Cola Cube
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Re:
by Rennie on Tue Feb 11, 2003 2:02 pm
Yes, Cola Cube , i realise that people can get caught out in the middle of the tuition fees, maybe they have more than one child going to university at the same time, paying off mortgages etc, and the Government should allow for this when they calculate what amount you must pay (sorry, in this area i'm not sure how they 'means-test' the tuition fees)
But, on the other hand, your parents knew you were going to go to Uni, and should have budgeted for that, in the same way that everyone does when they realise that they have a new expenditure coming up. Get a longer mortgage , with smaller repayments, don't get the luxury model of car, etc...
I feel that parents shouldn't be made to pay for university if it causes them to lose out on basic things, such as having a car, buying replacement items if something breaks or similar things, but it should cause htem to cut back on their luxury expenditure - a holiday in spain rather than the carribean and so on. There is a fine line to draw on tuition fees, but i feel that people at the higher end of the scale are abusing the system by not paying enough for their tuition and they still have the cheek to moan about it while there are some students who have to scrimp and save just to be able to afford the fees. The system that works at present i feel it quite faie, except like i said for the higher wage earners, they should have to pay more and this is why i support the raising of tuition fees for these people.
Sorry if it doesn't make too much sense, i was in a rush and just felt i had to put a response back on here
But, on the other hand, your parents knew you were going to go to Uni, and should have budgeted for that, in the same way that everyone does when they realise that they have a new expenditure coming up. Get a longer mortgage , with smaller repayments, don't get the luxury model of car, etc...
I feel that parents shouldn't be made to pay for university if it causes them to lose out on basic things, such as having a car, buying replacement items if something breaks or similar things, but it should cause htem to cut back on their luxury expenditure - a holiday in spain rather than the carribean and so on. There is a fine line to draw on tuition fees, but i feel that people at the higher end of the scale are abusing the system by not paying enough for their tuition and they still have the cheek to moan about it while there are some students who have to scrimp and save just to be able to afford the fees. The system that works at present i feel it quite faie, except like i said for the higher wage earners, they should have to pay more and this is why i support the raising of tuition fees for these people.
Sorry if it doesn't make too much sense, i was in a rush and just felt i had to put a response back on here
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Rennie
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Re:
by Cola Cube on Tue Feb 11, 2003 2:30 pm
Means testing is all very well but it doesn't take into account financial history. Through no fault of her own my mother became bankrupt when I was very young and was left tens of thousands of pounds in debt. She was only able to start paying this off after I had grown up a bit and she had finished her surveying exams which she had to do by hereslf as she could no longer afford university.
Consequently there was no money to be put aside for when I was going to University though my brothers won't suffer the same problem.
I imagine there are many people in a similar situation, just because you have money now doesn't mean you always have and a lot of what you've got may be tied up in the past.
I would suggest a revaluation of how means testing works but that would be impossible. It would become to time consuming for those who carry it out and would be susceptable to people cheating the system.
Consequently there was no money to be put aside for when I was going to University though my brothers won't suffer the same problem.
I imagine there are many people in a similar situation, just because you have money now doesn't mean you always have and a lot of what you've got may be tied up in the past.
I would suggest a revaluation of how means testing works but that would be impossible. It would become to time consuming for those who carry it out and would be susceptable to people cheating the system.
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Cola Cube
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Re:
by Rennie on Tue Feb 11, 2003 4:58 pm
I think that you are quite a unique situation in that your mother had to pay off debts from the past that were so large. Means testing would not be that difficult, you just have to evaluate the income and expenditure and work out a fair figure.
Of course, it would be open to people cheating the system , but that always occurs , no matter how watertight it is.
Of course, it would be open to people cheating the system , but that always occurs , no matter how watertight it is.
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Rennie
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Re:
by Cola Cube on Tue Feb 11, 2003 5:25 pm
All I'm saying is that the means testing for loans is already fucked up, never mind for tuition fees as well. A lot of my mates from school got screwed over wheres those with more money but with at least one parent being self employed got the biggest loan.
Some were forced to stay at home and commute to university while one of my mates couldn't get a big enough loan to afford uni at all. None of these people were poor and none had holidays abroad or the luxury models of car.
People in the middle would get screwed over just as many are already with the loan system. Classes, whether social or financial are just not clear cut enough for this proposed system to work.
Some were forced to stay at home and commute to university while one of my mates couldn't get a big enough loan to afford uni at all. None of these people were poor and none had holidays abroad or the luxury models of car.
People in the middle would get screwed over just as many are already with the loan system. Classes, whether social or financial are just not clear cut enough for this proposed system to work.
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Cola Cube
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