Raisin Fascism

[Frank]

Quoting Bizarre Atheist from 13:27, 16th Nov 2006
Officer: Is that your broken chair sonny?
Bejant: Yes sir.
Officer: No it isn't. You're nicked. No career for you.
Bejant: But, but-
Officer: You should've thought about your career *before* you came to the best University in Scotland, now, shouldn't you?

If my experiences with Fife Police are anything to go with, then they're narky shits with you (and threaten arrest for Breach of the Peace) when reporting crimes.

Any argument with them will simply, in their eyes, constitute breach of the peace. It'll be followed by a night in the cells, and most likely some form of warning (that dissipates after X months) that is neither 'charged' or otherwise.

Conviction for breach of the peace, I hear, is rather difficult, but fighting off (with lawyers etc) any kind of warning is more often than not a waste of time.

Frank's Words of Advice this Raisin Weekend

- Don't be out in the street unless you're moving between places. Of course you've a right to be there, but (even though wrong and facist) you may well end up in a fruitless pointless argument where either everyone loses, or you deploy a lawyer and cost yourself money.
- Don't be off-your-face in 'public'...ie out doors. In your own house: fine, in a pub/bar: fine for a wee while. But past that: Fife Police, so I hear, tend to be quite liberal with their deployment of 'this is breach of the peace, get 'em boys!'
- Don't steal things. That's wrong anyway, and if Raisin Sunday is a known occurence of 'lots of things being stolen', then can you blame them for checking? No. Can you blame them for arresting you just because you can't prove it's yours? Yes. Do you want to be in that situation? No.
- Have a good time, but don't be a cunt.



I suspect that, in relation to the 'poor working class locals' who're set against us students, it is not the 'working class' that are the cuase of the Police Presence. Oh no!

It's all the rich folks. Worse things happen regularly in Dunfermline/Kirkcaldy/Glenrothes/Rest of Fife, drawing in so many folks is testamont to how much clout 'St Andrews' the town has. It may well be the 'working class', but I suspect it's the 'upper class'.



[hr]

"There is only ever one truth. Things are always black or white, there's no such thing as a shade of grey. If you think that something is a shade of grey it simply means that you don't fully understand the situation. The truth is narrow and the path of the pursuit of truth is similarly narrow."

[Frank]

Quoting bdw from 14:44, 16th Nov 2006
Officer: Hmm. *slowly reaches for pepper spray*

Not pepper spray. Those new fangled 'pain control' cuffs (they've got plastic lumps that dig into your arm[causing pain] if you try'n move or squirm, so I hear).



[hr]

"There is only ever one truth. Things are always black or white, there's no such thing as a shade of grey. If you think that something is a shade of grey it simply means that you don't fully understand the situation. The truth is narrow and the path of the pursuit of truth is similarly narrow."

[exnihilo]

I'll likely be shouted down for this, but the University's threat to discipline people following on from any criminal charges is not an unnecessary or overly legalistic position being adopted by a "moral arbiter". Everyone signed the sponsio academica, and everyone was provided with an English translation of what they were signing. The University authorities have always viewed criminal behaviour and arrest as activity likely to bring the University into disrepute and which, therefore, breaches the sponsio. You're all members of the University community, and are subject to the University's discipline, this isn't some innovation that the Principal has come up with this year - indeed, previous principals viewed it seriously enough to have an unofficial policy of sending down any student who broke the law.

[Rufus]

Quoting dunqn from 14:57, 16th Nov 2006

Quoting Frank from 14:52, 16th Nov 2006
Have a good time, but don't be a cunt.

I don't think any more needs to be said, Frankly (sorry). If people applied this attitude to life in general, there'd be a lot less to worry about.

Aye. But only if the people who behave like idiots, are aware that they are behaving like idiots. Half the time, I don't think they possess the mental faculties to deduce that what they're doing is wrong.

[Rufus]

Quoting Harry Giles from 09:23, 16th Nov 2006

Has it truly come to this? Is raisin weekend so obnoxious that-- No, have we so descended into legalism in this country that we feel that that vicious degree of legal enforcement on a bunch of rowdy teenagers is considered necessary? Are we that willing to criminalise the young, brash and stupid? At the risk of being yet more histrionic, what's next? Riot cops storming raisin tea parties?

Does anyone feel some form of protest is needed?

I wouldn't say this was 'criminalising' the 'young, brash and stupid', it's more a self-important document of bluster that's more a warning than a threat.

The wording is a tad melodramatic, and the allusion to a criminal record affecting future employment faintly ludicrous, but apart from that it seems a sensible way to remind students who may have a tendency to take things too far (and there are lots of them) that it's not big and it's not clever. (Their attitude is rubbing off on me, egads).

I'd be very surprised if Fife constabulary actually start being efficient, so it's not really enormously worrying.

[nighteyes]

I am female therefore I am right in all things...even when I am not.

Quoting munchingfoo from 12:50, 16th Nov 2006

Quoting nighteyes from 12:43, 16th Nov 2006
Usually by getting way way too intoxicated and either climbing onto (then falling off) the cliffs at the aquarium or the castle. Or walking into traffic. Thinks like that. Drunken stupidness kills.

[hr]

i didnt say i was consistant, just right!

I think you, dear, need to change your signature.

[hr]

Tired Freudian references aside - your mother played my mighty skin flute like a surf crowned sea nymph trying to rouse Poseidon from his watery slumber!

I remeber seeing a bath outside St Mary's last year - It would be interesting to prove ownership of a bath I would think.

[hr]

i didnt say i was consistant, just right!

[teagreenaddict]

Okay. One, the police aren't able to stop and search anyone without a damn good reason, and asking if you've stolen something is 'stop and search' - collectively, from my mother, working in Suffolk Constabulary.

'Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 - PACE enables a constable to search for stolen or 'prohibited articles' or knives - except short-bladed penknives. PACE defines two categories of prohibited article:

• An offensive weapon.

• An article made or adapted for use in connection with one of a list of offences including burglary, theft, taking a conveyance without authority - or being carried in one - and obtaining property by deception.

Virtually any article could come within this second definition but there would have to be some evidence of the use of the article or the intention of the person making, adapting or carrying it, otherwise a constable would not have reasonable grounds to search.'

From 'yourrights.org.uk' - so basically, they need some evidence of intention or use of the person, and it has to be an item that has been reported stolen or looks suspicious.

'A police officer may detain you or your vehicle for a search, but not in order to find grounds to justify a search. The reasonable grounds must already exist.'

They have to have reasonable grounds.

I don't see why the Students' Association can't print up a mass form saying 'this item has been loaned to X by the Students' Association, any queries/suspicion of theft, speak to the SA' and that would deal with any idiots who decide to steal shop signs.

[teagreenaddict]

There must be some concrete basis for the officer's belief, related to you personally, which can be considered and evaluated by an objective third person. Mere suspicion based on hunch or instinct might justify observation but cannot justify a search.

Reasonable grounds for suspicion cannot be based solely on attitudes or prejudices towards certain types of people, such as membership of a group within which offenders of a certain kind are relatively common - for example, young football fans. Nor can it be based solely on your skin colour, age, hairstyle, mode of dress, or previous convictions for possessing an unlawful article.

[Al]

PACE doesn't apply in Scotland.

[DrAlex]

I'm not really sure what all the fuss is about. I'm sure you all go out hundreds of times a year without breaking the law, why is Raisin Sunday all of a sudden be your downfall?

[hr]

"Listen to DrAlex."-Polli
http://standrews.facebook.com/profile.php?id=37100343

[duckgirl]

Raisin Weekend is not a case of just a few students having a drink, being a bit rowdy, and possibly nicking an old bath.

Raisin Weekend has a massive impact both on the student community and, more disgustingly, the town people.
How is it acceptable that people are being admitted at 9am for alcohol poisoning, that families walking from Tescos down Market Street have tins of beans poured on their heads, and that there are 17-yr olds having funnels of vodka poured down their throats?

The police are simply doing their job - at no other time would they accept stolen goods and excessive drinking in the streets, so why should they at Raisin Weekend?

The university can and will have a massive impact on the tradition of Raisin Weekend. They can withdraw the use of the quad and any other uni property for the foam fight - Do we really want excressive drinking and disgusting irresponsible behaviour to spoil the real point of Raisin Weekend - the traditions?

And I do not thing that some form of "protest" is necesary in any way.

[David Bean]

What I want to know is, who sent that email, and has the Students' Association lodged a strenuous protest? Because if not, they should. Leading members of the Association's representative structure may in the past have been accused of being more interested in wailing into their pillows about the selfishness and irresponsibility of students, instead of, for example, representing them, but on this occasion action is clearly necessary.

To threaten someone with an arrest for theft merely on the strength of being in possession of an item whose ownership they cannot prove is not only the most ridiculous thing I've heard in a long time, but it also borders on the criminally negligent. What, for instance, is an international bejant - perhaps one from a country without our tradition of democracy and due process - who is unfamilliar with the British legal system to make of it? I shouldn't be surprised if a few became too scared to leave the hall all day, and on the strength of that, who could blame them?

If whoever wrote that message claims to believe what they wrote, they are guilty of such ignorance and incompetence as to render them unfit for the position they hold - and if it is their position that the message was simply designed to remind people of the seriousness of ill behaviour and was to be interpreted through the lens of what we know about criminal justice in this country, in my opinion a good lawyer could make a case against them for racial discrimination and harassment.

So I repeat: what is the Students' Association going to do about this?

[hr]

Psalm 91:7

[Senethro]

Oh shush david. If these people were traditional criminal types the posts on this board would be screaming for their blood. Instead they're getting a light telling off and a warning not to be lethally retarded.

[LonelyPilgrim]

Well, ignoring all the legal aspects of the situation, I think you've got an interesting sociological conundrum here. University traditions have become so Bacchanalian that they have effectively alienated the town, and created a situation where you have two hostile communities occupying the same space and clearly starting to carry on a low intensity conflict through the use of the bureacracy.

Quite interesting, but hardly surprising, I must admit. I managed to be out of town for three of four Raisin Weekends, and glad of it.

As for the legal side of things... I'd say that the very tradition of Raisin Sunday probably provides sufficient justification for stop and search. That's a matter for lawyers. The real point I wish to make is that, assuming that the police do have the legal authority to act as they are threatening, they still have discretionary powers and can decide whether or not to press charges, conduct searches, etc. Clearly, they feel that the situation in the recent past has gotten sufficiently out of hand that using the full force of the law is justified.

Rather than blame the police then, there are certain elements within the student community that ought to take a long hard think about how they represent themselves, the University, and their fellow students to the town.

[hr]

Arma virumque cano...

[Gubbins]

The University has always sought to have reasonable control over the activities of Raisin Weekend. To some extent they have succeeded. Reputedly the events of the last 6 or 7 years have been significantly tamer than in previous ones.

The "traditional criminal types" who are liable to smash shop windows and steal shop signs, golf flags, lampposts, etc., will have their blood well and truly screamed for, I'm sure.

The concept that anyone who doesn't have a till receipt for anything they happen to be carrying around on Monday morning is ludicrous and cannot and will not be enforced. Fife Constabulary will, as usual, be out to keep the peace, and will look very dimly on anyone who is obviously doing anything illegal. I refuse to believe they will be out stringing out the red tape to the extent it said in the e-mail, which was doubtless intended to make a strong point, but was poorly put. My suggestion would be that someone of authority in the student community at least tells the person who wrote the e-mail the potential problems and confusion it could cause, and suggest that they pay more careful attention to interpretation in future.

[hr]

...but then again, that is only my opinion.

[Lid]

I'll be out there inspecting some of these raisin receipts.

Not for proof of ownership (surely the burden of proof lies with the police anyway), but to fulfil my own perverse pedantic urge to make sure the Latin is up to scratch.

Gaudeamus anyone?

[hr]

We are not drunks, we are multi-millionaires

[Al]

Quoting Lid from 23:22, 16th Nov 2006
I'll be out there inspecting some of these raisin receipts.

Not for proof of ownership (surely the burden of proof lies with the police anyway), but to fulfil my own perverse pedantic urge to make sure the Latin is up to scratch.

Gaudeamus anyone?

I trust you'll be wearing your gown.

[novium]

someone have the full text of it?

[hr]

tamen ira procul absit, cum qua nihil recte fieri, nihil considerate potest.

[Al]

http://www.yourunion.net/debates/conten ... ?page=6349

I am not sure if all those verses are used though.

[Rufus]

I think novium meant the email.