Christian Voice Rides Again (more Christian Bashing)

[exnihilo]

[s]Paul wrote on 22:58, 3rd Feb 2005:
[s]exnihilo wrote on 21:34, 3rd Feb 2005:[i]
And, remember, folks, God abominates polycotton shirts too.

There is no mention of an abomination here.
[/i]

How unfortunate that the omniscience you have been granted has elbowed out your sense of humour. Unfortunate, but far from surprising.

[Paul]

[s]The Truth wrote on 02:33, 4th Feb 2005:
[s]Paul wrote on 00:14, 4th Feb 2005:[i]
Rome calls Mary, the Queen of Heaven. But the Bible does not call Mary the Queen of Heaven.
But then, Rome is full of idols, in contravention of:

First, I has never seen (nor heard) any Catholic source use the phrase "the Queen of Heaven". So if Rome calls Mary such, they obviously arn't making a point of it. As far as idols go, Rome supports no such thing. Relics perhaps, but that is a different story, and certainly not "idols".
[/i]

Just a quick response.

Here is a quote from the Rosary (Note that the Fourth Glorious Mystery is the supposed Assumption of Mary into Heaven):
"Fifth Glorious Mystery - The Coronation
Mary had served Jesus all her life. She had loved and served God with her whole heart and soul. She had never committed the slightest sin. So in heaven she was to have her reward. Body and soul, Mary entered heaven. Her Son, Jesus, met her and took her in His grateful arms. The heavenly Father said, "This is My dear devoted daughter." The Divine Son said, "This is My dear faithful Mother." The Holy Spirit said, "This is my sweet, pure bride." And the saints and angels all cried, "This is our Queen!" So Jesus, the King of Kings, seated her on her throne. On her head He placed a glorious crown of stars. But Mary looked down to see her children on earth. For now she could help her sons and daughters to reach heaven. Mary is the Queen of Heaven. But she is our loving Mother who protects us with her power." - http://www.truecatholic.org/rosary.htm

And another reference:
"Today we celebrate the assumption of our Lady, body and soul, into the glory of heaven, where she is crowned as heaven's Queen. Her assumption into heaven points us foward to the resurrection of the whole people of God in Jesus Christ at the end of time, and her coronation there points us foward to our own sharing in Jesus' kingly power.

So, as Queen of heaven, Mary is sharing in the royalty of her Son, Jesus Christ. He is the universal King, and she shares in his kingship. And so we call her the Queen of heaven, the Queen of angels, and of more besides. She is our Queen, reigning over us with Christ from the full bodily reality of heaven." - http://torch.op.org/preaching/sermon/711

And as you don't seem to be aware of it, here are instructionc for reciting the Rosary: http://www.newadvent.org/library/rosary.pdf . Notice the Fifth "Glorious Mystery".

Addendum:
And while we are on the subject of the Rosary:

"But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking." - Matthew 6:7

"But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness." II Timothy 2:16

More later.

[novium]

[s]Paul wrote on 11:29, 4th Feb 2005:
[s]The Truth wrote on 02:33, 4th Feb 2005:[i]
[s]Paul wrote on 00:14, 4th Feb 2005:[i]
Rome calls Mary, the Queen of Heaven. But the Bible does not call Mary the Queen of Heaven.
But then, Rome is full of idols, in contravention of:

First, I has never seen (nor heard) any Catholic source use the phrase "the Queen of Heaven". So if Rome calls Mary such, they obviously arn't making a point of it. As far as idols go, Rome supports no such thing. Relics perhaps, but that is a different story, and certainly not "idols".
[/i]

Just a quick response.

Here is a quote from the Rosary (Note that the Fourth Glorious Mystery is the supposed Assumption of Mary into Heaven):
"Fifth Glorious Mystery - The Coronation
Mary had served Jesus all her life. She had loved and served God with her whole heart and soul. She had never committed the slightest sin. So in heaven she was to have her reward. Body and soul, Mary entered heaven. Her Son, Jesus, met her and took her in His grateful arms. The heavenly Father said, "This is My dear devoted daughter." The Divine Son said, "This is My dear faithful Mother." The Holy Spirit said, "This is my sweet, pure bride." And the saints and angels all cried, "This is our Queen!" So Jesus, the King of Kings, seated her on her throne. On her head He placed a glorious crown of stars. But Mary looked down to see her children on earth. For now she could help her sons and daughters to reach heaven. Mary is the Queen of Heaven. But she is our loving Mother who protects us with her power." - http://www.truecatholic.org/rosary.htm

And another reference:
"Today we celebrate the assumption of our Lady, body and soul, into the glory of heaven, where she is crowned as heaven's Queen. Her assumption into heaven points us foward to the resurrection of the whole people of God in Jesus Christ at the end of time, and her coronation there points us foward to our own sharing in Jesus' kingly power.

So, as Queen of heaven, Mary is sharing in the royalty of her Son, Jesus Christ. He is the universal King, and she shares in his kingship. And so we call her the Queen of heaven, the Queen of angels, and of more besides. She is our Queen, reigning over us with Christ from the full bodily reality of heaven." - http://torch.op.org/preaching/sermon/711

And as you don't seem to be aware of it, here are instructionc for reciting the Rosary: http://www.newadvent.org/library/rosary.pdf . Notice the Fifth "Glorious Mystery".

More later.
[/i]


Your argument would have more strength if you were quoting the vatican's website and not random ones.

[Paul]

[s]novium wrote on 11:38, 4th Feb 2005:

Your argument would have more strength if you were quoting the vatican's website and not random ones.


Only too willing to oblige. Just for you, straight from the Vatican, the (infallible?) encyclical Ad Caeli Reginam from Pope Pius XII declaring Mary to be the Queen of Heaven.

"From the earliest ages of the catholic church a Christian people, whether in time of triumph or more especially in time of crisis, has addressed prayers of petition and hymns of praise and veneration to the Queen of Heaven. And never has that hope wavered which they placed in the Mother of the Divine King, Jesus Christ; nor has that faith ever failed by which we are taught that Mary, the Virgin Mother of God, reigns with a mother's solicitude over the entire world, just as she is crowned in heavenly blessedness with the glory of a Queen."


http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_ ... am_en.html

[hr]
"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil." - Proverbs 3:5-7

[Paul]

[s]Paul wrote on 12:01, 4th Feb 2005:
[s]novium wrote on 11:38, 4th Feb 2005:[i]

Your argument would have more strength if you were quoting the vatican's website and not random ones.


Jusat for you, straight from the Vatican, the (infallible?) encyclical Ad Caeli Reginam from Pope Pius XII declaring Mary to be the Queen of Heaven.

"From the earliest ages of the catholic church a Christian people, whether in time of triumph or more especially in time of crisis, has addressed prayers of petition and hymns of praise and veneration to the Queen of Heaven. And never has that hope wavered which they placed in the Mother of the Divine King, Jesus Christ; nor has that faith ever failed by which we are taught that Mary, the Virgin Mother of God, reigns with a mother's solicitude over the entire world, just as she is crowned in heavenly blessedness with the glory of a Queen."


http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_ ... am_en.html

[hr]
"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil." - Proverbs 3:5-7
[/i]



[hr]
"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil." - Proverbs 3:5-7

[The Truth]

[s]Paul wrote on 11:29, 4th Feb 2005:

Just a quick response.

Here is a quote from the Rosary (Note that the Fourth Glorious Mystery is the supposed Assumption of Mary into Heaven):
"Fifth Glorious Mystery - The Coronation
Mary had served Jesus all her life. She had loved and served God with her whole heart and soul. She had never committed the slightest sin. So in heaven she was to have her reward. Body and soul, Mary entered heaven. Her Son, Jesus, met her and took her in His grateful arms. The heavenly Father said, "This is My dear devoted daughter." The Divine Son said, "This is My dear faithful Mother." The Holy Spirit said, "This is my sweet, pure bride." And the saints and angels all cried, "This is our Queen!" So Jesus, the King of Kings, seated her on her throne. On her head He placed a glorious crown of stars. But Mary looked down to see her children on earth. For now she could help her sons and daughters to reach heaven. Mary is the Queen of Heaven. But she is our loving Mother who protects us with her power." - http://www.truecatholic.org/rosary.htm


Please read your references before you quote them. The above site, though they claim to be Catholics, are not of Rome (read the front page, they claim they just got a new pope in 1998, and it sure as heck isnt the one in the Vatican). They are a sect that has broken away from the papacy, and are a group of fanatics that resemble more your approach to faith then a truely catholic one.


Although Catholics do give much reverence to Mary, the mother of God (the title used in most roman-Catholic circles), they don't worship her. They acknowledge the virgin birth, and whats in the bible, and thats about it. In any case, your Mother's repect for a woman that God the Father trusted with his son(and I'm sure you can beleive that much) should not solicit your disrespect for her, let alone utter rejection thereof.


[hr]
May Christ give you the grace to pick up your scattered wits.
-St. Jerome

[Paul]

[s]The Truth wrote on 12:28, 4th Feb 2005:
[s]Paul wrote on 11:29, 4th Feb 2005:[i]

Please read your references before you quote them. The above site, though they claim to be Catholics, are not of Rome (read the front page, they claim they just got a new pope in 1998, and it sure as heck isnt the one in the Vatican). They are a sect that has broken away from the papacy, and are a group of fanatics that resemble more your approach to faith then a truely catholic one.
[/i]

As you will notice, I have added a reference from Rome. I notice that you call the True Catholics a sect, a group of fanatics. Then you must apply the same label to Roman Catholicism before Vatican II - for that is the faith the the True Catholics hold to. And MAry was declared Queen of Heaven before Vatican II !!!

As to not worshipping Mary - that is just spin - the dulia, hyperdulia kind.

The facts are that Mary is granted a higher status in Rome than her son! Just look at the number of Hail Mary's said in the Rosary contrasted to the prayers to Jesus. Mary outnumbers Jesus by almost 10 to 1 !!!


[hr]
"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil." - Proverbs 3:5-7

[exnihilo]

You really are astoundingly selective in your use of 'evidence', aren't you?

Out of curiosity, do you feel bound by the Law as given in the Torah? And, if so, which parts? Just the ones that suit your own morality? Ones referred to in the New Testament? Or the whole shebang?

[Paul]

[s]exnihilo wrote on 12:52, 4th Feb 2005:
Out of curiosity, do you feel bound by the Law as given in the Torah? And, if so, which parts? Just the ones that suit your own morality? Ones referred to in the New Testament? Or the whole shebang?


I already addressed this in a quotation from the Westminster Confession of Faith and in the post on how God views sin.

There has been a change since Christ's Redemptive sacrifice on the cross.

But, yes, I hold to the moral LAw, as given in the Torah. And, yes, that includes the seventh day Sabbath.

However, as mentioned earlier, obedience to the Law is not the means od salvation.


[hr]
"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil." - Proverbs 3:5-7

[exnihilo]

I know it isn't. I'm sorry, I don't recall you answering this question - and I don't think you've answered it now. I don't give a stuff which day you work or don't, I asked about the body of the Law, you'll be aware of the 613 commandments - which commandments, or groups of them, do you consider yourself excused from?

The reason I ask, is that you clearly view the Bible as the only moral/spirirtual authority and presumably that means all of it? If not, I'd be interested to know what the point of keeping the 'dead wood' is, surely some sort of rewrite must be in order? Otherwise it's just there as historical commentary and surely would be better in another book? Perhaps giving you 301.

[Paul]

[s]The Truth wrote on 12:28, 4th Feb 2005:
Although Catholics do give much reverence to Mary, the mother of God (the title used in most roman-Catholic circles), they don't worship her. They acknowledge the virgin birth, and whats in the bible, and thats about it. In any case, your Mother's repect for a woman that God the Father trusted with his son(and I'm sure you can beleive that much) should not solicit your disrespect for her, let alone utter rejection thereof.

Herewith evidence from an Apostolic Exhortation on Devotion to Mary by Pope Paul VI, that Rome regards veneration of Mary as worship:

"From the moment when we were called to the See of Peter, we have constantly striven to enhance devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary, not only with the intention of interpreting the sentiments of the Church and our own personal inclination but also because, as is well known, this devotion forms a very noble part of the whole sphere of that sacred worship in which there intermingle the highest expressions of wisdom and of religion(1) and which is therefore the primary task of the People of God."

"The development, desired by us, of devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary is an indication of the Church's genuine piety. This devotion fits-as we have indicated above-into the only worship that is rightly called "Christian," because it takes its origin and effectiveness from Christ, finds its complete expression in Christ, and leads through Christ in the Spirit to the Father. In the sphere of worship this devotion necessarily reflects God's redemptive plan, in which a special form of veneration is appropriate to the singular place which Mary occupies in that plan.(4) Indeed every authentic development of Christian worship is necessarily followed by a fitting increase of veneration for the Mother of the Lord."

Extracted from: http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_ ... us_en.html


[hr]
"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil." - Proverbs 3:5-7

[The Truth]

[s]Paul wrote on 13:19, 4th Feb 2005:
Herewith evidence from an Apostolic Exhortation on Devotion to Mary by Pope Paul VI, that Rome regards veneration of Mary as worship:

Despite your ignorance, devotion is not the same as worship. Devotion to Mary would be part--and a small part at that--of worship.

As to your claim of statics, the Rosary is defined to be: A form of devotion to the Virgin Mary, chiefly consisting of three sets of five decades each of the Hail Mary, each decade preceded by the Lord's Prayer and ending with a doxology.
Notice that its not devotion to the Christ, there are other prayers for that.

So here are more statics for you:
The Rosary is NEVER used during catholic mass.
Hail Mary is NEVER used during catholic mass.
The Our Father is used EVERY catholic mass.

So, using your logic, then the Father and Christ outnumber Mary infinite to 0.


Regardless, the Catholic faith does not rely soley on any book (the Bible is supplemented by a supporting arsenal of thousands of years of knowledge, gain prior and since), so your quotes are quite useless, unless you are a preist or decon with a real, active, and practiced knowledge of the faith.
If you insist on quoting something, then how about sticking to the basics, the rest is debatable, even within the church (its called flexibility or openess, I know its a foreign concept to you, sorry).
The Nicene Creed is used in mass, and has been used by the catholic church for nearly 1700 years: perhaps you should look there for knoweldge that is undebatably endorsed by the catholic church. The crap you've been quoting is hardly doctrine.



And moreover, all of this regardless, none of it adresses the main point, which is why on earth or heaven you would reject the Lord's COMMANDMENT to honour your mother, just because she gives DEVOTION (not worship, despite your claims) to a woman God trusted with the biggest responsibility of any mortal ever.

[hr]
May Christ give you the grace to pick up your scattered wits.
-St. Jerome

[exnihilo]

Ah, but, The Truth, our friend Paul isn't a deacon or a priest or a rabbi, he's more knowledgeable than any of those, they are as naught to him. Their knowledge or interpretations of their respective faiths are, likewise, naught to him.

[The Truth]

[s]exnihilo wrote on 14:03, 4th Feb 2005:
Ah, but, The Truth, our friend Paul isn't a deacon or a priest or a rabbi, he's more knowledgeable than any of those, they are as naught to him. Their knowledge or interpretations of their respective faiths are, likewise, naught to him.


Damn, sorry.
I keep thinking thinking that he's mortal, and capable of error like the rest of us.

Oh well: all hail Paul the Omniscient.


[hr]
May Christ give you the grace to pick up your scattered wits.
-St. Jerome

[Paul]

[s]The Truth wrote on 14:59, 4th Feb 2005:
[s]exnihilo wrote on 14:03, 4th Feb 2005:[i]
Ah, but, The Truth, our friend Paul isn't a deacon or a priest or a rabbi, he's more knowledgeable than any of those, they are as naught to him. Their knowledge or interpretations of their respective faiths are, likewise, naught to him.


Damn, sorry.
I keep thinking thinking that he's mortal, and capable of error like the rest of us.

Oh well: all hail Paul the Omniscient.[/i]


I am a mere mortal, capable of mistakes, and would thank you to treat me as such!

"... for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve." - Luke 4:8



[hr]
"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil." - Proverbs 3:5-7

[The Truth]

Then do us all a favor, and treat yourself as such.

[Manic23]

[s]The Truth wrote on 13:50, 4th Feb 2005:


Hail Mary is NEVER used during catholic mass.


Not true, I'm afraid (I'm afraid because I don't want to prolong this 'debate' any further, as Paul's firebrand 'preaching' is really beginning to destroy my will to live)

Whilst it is not spoken at every mass, the priest will occasionally throw it in after the Apostles creed and the prayers of the faithful which follow the homily.

Sorry

[The Truth]

As to the above post: sorry, I was probably wrong.
Then the Hail Mary is Very Exceptionally rarely said during Catholic Mass.
Which makes the ratio roughly a lot of God/christ prayers/devotions to a rare ocasional occurance of a devotion devoted to Mary.

But as I said, this is irrelevent anyhow. In attempt to redirect the conversation,then let us instead examine these two jems, that have alread been posted, but not answered:

"He who mistreats his father, or drives away his mother, is a worthless and disgraceful son." PROVERBS 19:26

"Honour thy father and father and mother" Exodus 21:12

Or just why Paul is such a self-rightous tit for refusing to attend his mother's funeral because he happens to disagree with her.


Either way, I believe that this is unanswerable by anything of sense. (senslessness can answer anything to the senseless, as Paul has repeatedly examplified).

[Paul]

[s]exnihilo wrote on 13:16, 4th Feb 2005:
..., I asked about the body of the Law, you'll be aware of the 613 commandments - which commandments, or groups of them, do you consider yourself excused from?

The reason I ask, is that you clearly view the Bible as the only moral/spirirtual authority and presumably that means [i]all of it? If not, I'd be interested to know what the point of keeping the 'dead wood' is, surely some sort of rewrite must be in order? Otherwise it's just there as historical commentary and surely would be better in another book? Perhaps giving you 301.
[/i]

As you will be aware, there are commandments in the Bible neither to add to it nor to remove anything from it.

“Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.” – Deuteronomy 4:2

“For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.” – Revelation 22:18-19

So what is the purpose of the Law then? This very question is asked and answered in Paul’s letter to the Galatians:

"19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.” – Galatians 3:19-24

When Peter withdrew himself from Gentile believers in Galatia, Paul rebuked him as follows:

But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.” – Galatians 2:14-16

Those who live by the Law are under the curse of the Law:

“For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.” – Galatians 3:10-11

And we have the following instruction from the leaders in Jerusalem to Gentile believers:

“As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.” – Acts 21:25

There is much more that could be said, but I will close with this:

“But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.” – Galatians 6:14-16


[hr]
"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil." - Proverbs 3:5-7

[Paul]

[s]Eliot Wilson wrote on 01:09, 4th Feb 2005:
[s]Paul wrote on 00:14, 4th Feb 2005:[i]
“A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) … Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. ” – I Timothy 3:2-5 & 12


I just know I'm going to regret this, but... could not that equally validly be read as meaning that a bishop cannot marry, since he is - watch for the metaphor, folks - married to the Church, and therefore should avoid the inevitable conflict between his duty to his family (were he to have one) and his duty to his flock?

[/i]

Actually, the Church is the Bride of Christ!!! So how can the priests claim to be married to her?


[hr]
"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil." - Proverbs 3:5-7