The Christian Union

[niall]

[s]Zombie Sheep wrote on 13:30, 30th Nov 2004:
[s]niall wrote on 11:24, 30th Nov 2004:[i]
on the grounds of equal opertunities, If you are a member of the Church of Scotland then you cant be a member of the St Andrews CU (by the CU's consitution)


Are you sure? If you are an affiliated society (which I guess they are), I thought you had to let anyone and everyone join?
[/i]

as someone has said, they arent affiliated.

but the reason behind the CoS thing is that the SAUCU's constitution says that member of the CU believes that the bible is the word of God, CoS stance is that it CONTAINS the word of God.

[macgamer]

[s]Miz Manda wrote on 13:46, 30th Nov 2004:
I remember someone telling me that Catholics also can't sign the creed of the CU. I'm not sure why but I just had a look at their website and the emphasis seems to be on faith and grace etc excluding the value of acts.

[hr]Any act of anti-social insanity is immediately sanctified by the magic word 'charity'. As someone once said, if Hitler had invaded Poland 'for Spina Bifida' then everyone would have just let him get on with it.


Catholics cannot sign the declaration as it means agreeing the statement "The Bible is the sole authority on religion" [or words to that effect].

This is the case for any heirarchical christian denomination that has some sort of college of Bishops/synod etc that decide on matters of faith.

So you're not going to get many Catholics to sign a declaration that in effect says "I believe that everything the Pope says is crap!"

[Ga]

Hang on...

Members of the Church of Scotland can't join.

Members of the Catholic church can't join.

It sounds like members of the Anglican Church can't join (from the jist of the last post).

Ermmm what Christians can join the CU?

[hr]If everything in life had a point, life would be pointless

[Pender Native]

So it should rename itself the Baptist Union?

I went along to the CU to see what it was like and I was asked not to go back, not because I am Cof S but because I argued too much. They were going on about how all the Bible is true and you have to do everything it says, and I brought up the book of Leviticus and asked them if they REALLY thought God cared if you ate shellfish and wore mixed fibre clothes. Alot of the Old Testement is very much geared to the society it was written for (ie a small marginalised group of desert nomads) and the same can be said of some of the stuff in Paul's letters can be seen the same way. People omplain because Paul said it's better not to marry, but the early christian thought that the world was going to end in a few years,a dn didn't want anything to distract them. And sorry Comedy but the Bible has been altered over time. Older versions have bits included that the version we have now doesn't, such as the whole mystical side of Christianity that existed in its earlier days, and don't include bits that we now have. An example of this is the very end of one of the gospels, which has Jesus saying that if a person truly has faith they will be able to pick up snakes and drink poison. That contradicts what he says elsewhere about not putting the Lord your God to the test and in the gospels he is regualrly shown refusing to perform miracles purely to prove that he is the Messiah. The bit about proving you are a Christian was put in later, by a Church that was feeling very marginalised and wanted to have absolute guidelines as to who was 'in' and who was 'out' - very similar to the CU- rather then just accepting that a christian was someone who believed in Jesus, what he had done, what he had said and tried to live their life by that. And it was altered again when the King James translation was written.

The thing that annoys me about people who say 'only Christians are getting into heaven' is the lack of humility. They never seem to consider that they might be wrong, that other religions might not be doomed, and it leads to a lot of suffering and distraction from other aspects of christianity like charity, not judging others, and loving your neightbour. The good samaritan was not a Jew, so the people listening to Jesus would have assumed that he was going to hell. Jesus said, 'do what I am telling you, repent you sins and you will be ok' he DIDN'T say 'call yourself a Christian and you will be saved'.

[Scarlet]

The thing that annoys me about people who say 'only Christians are getting into heaven' is the lack of humility. They never seem to consider that they might be wrong [/i]

I've never really got this particular criticism against Christianity. I mean, clearly, if you believe something enough that you choose to dedicate your life to it, you DO believe that you are right! I don't see what is necessarily wrong with this, and why Christians in particular get such stick about this. Don't Muslims believe that they are right? Don't Hindus? Nobody is going to profess such commitment to a belief system if they only half-heartedly think it is correct! This is not disrespectful of other religions or against the teachings of Christianity in the way you suggest. After all, you can disagree with something your friend says or does, but do you stop loving them because of this? You do not have to agree with something to have respect for it.

[Pender Native]

You seem to have misunderstood me, I meant that they never consider that they might be wrong about other religions not getting into heaven. I am annoyed that they don't consider the possibilty that other religions might not get into heaven, which is not a vital tenet of christianity -I know Christians who don't believe that no-Christians are doomed, I am one. I am not annoyed that their faith is so strong and that they believe their own religion to be worthwhile. I will edit my post so that it's clearer, thankyou.



[hr]
I like to listen to a man who likes to talk. Whoops! Sawdust and Treacle, put that in your herring and smoke it!

[Odysseus]

Telling folk that they are going to be damned for not following THEIR set of belief system smacks of utter petulance, which is why these people are often ridiculed. Religion reflects what a particular society wants, and personally, I find the worship of a diety utterly hillarious, do you believe in Santa and the Tooth fairy? On the other hand, what makes Christians so sure that they are following the one true god - why is their religion so right and others so wrong?

[harmless loony]

I recall an RS lesson I had a few years back at college - whereby the RS teacher (a devout Christian) told the class that a paedophile who calls himself Christian will get into heaven whereas a Muslim/Jew/Sikh etc wouldn't get anywhere near heaven even if they had spent all their life living on the straight and narrow and doing lots of good deeds.

Is that a common thought or is it restricted to certain sects in Christianity??

[Prophet Tenebrae]

I think that if the CU is to be renamed - it should be as Zack at the debate said it should be renamed the Evangelical Union.

[jayaker]

I recall an RS lesson I had a few years back at college - whereby the RS teacher (a devout Christian) told the class that a paedophile who calls himself Christian will get into heaven whereas a Muslim/Jew/Sikh etc wouldn't get anywhere near heaven even if they had spent all their life living on the straight and narrow and doing lots of good deeds.

Is that a common thought or is it restricted to certain sects in Christianity??

[/i]

It's not a philosophy which I would agree with, and I would call myself a Christian. I believe that anyone who follows a respectable and tolerant lifestyle will in turn earn the respect and love of God, regardless of their own faith denomenation. But I suspect not all Christians feel that way. However, I will not go down the road of presuming to know all of what others believe, as some on this thread seem to be doing!

Also, what does everyone else think about denominational schools (catholic, protestant, Islamic etc)? Is it a positive thing or does it breed intolerance and distrust?

I ask because it strikes me as a little unfair that (for instance) I was taught RE in school by a christian, mainly about the christian faith, in a school where many of the pupils were from different religious backgrounds. Also, we sang christian hymns at the end of term services and a minister came to speak. As I am a christian, this was not an issue for me personally, but it seems unfair to those who were Muslims/Sikhs etc. No-one forced them to come to the services, but by not going they would still appear excluded from the rest of the pupils.

Your thoughts? Answers on a postcard....

[hr]
"They misunderestimated me" Bush, Nov 6, 2000 "I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." Bush
April 3, 2000

[Atangaladhion]

I went to a catholic school called Douai where we had assemblies in an abbey and RS was taught by monks.

We covered less about the catholic faith and more about moral ideas, (such as abortion, euthanasia, etc.)

We did cover the Bible and what the parables meant etc. but the emphasis was definitely more on, "Well what do you think is right?" as opposed to "This is what it says, this is right, learn it." If you had a decent arguement for why you disagreed with something never, never, were you told your views were wrong. In fact, the monks were far happier to take your side of the arguement to help challenge the beliefs of those who had just been sat there nodding, not really paying attention. They were far more interested in making you really think about what you believed than about making you Catholic.

I'm an atheist and the RS teacher was probably one of the best teachers I had. Never did I feel uncomfortable or ill at ease in the class, (which was predominantly catholic) and not once did they give any hint that I was "less worthy" as it were than they were.

We did have a couple of services and things each week, and the odd Mass now and then, but it didn't really bother me. There's normally a good lesson in there, and you don't have to believe in God to get the message, and learn the lesson.

[LonelyPilgrim]

Jayaker,

The argument about Christians recieving salvation regardless of their deeds... etc... is based on the idea that in order to recieve salvation you must acknowledge the magnitude of Christ's sacrifice for us, and by extension the magnitude of God's love.

Someone who doesn't 'get' Christ's sacrifice, can't really understand just how much God loves the world.

Something I believe? eh... I'm a Christian, but when it comes to whether the other faiths have a shot at salvation, I'm fairly agnostic.

[the Empress]

I went to a comp school, where religion wasn't an issue (you didn't have religous assemblies, and they gave up on hymns/prayers when they were only met with silence:) Our Religous studies class covered Christianity/Budhism/Sikhism/Hinduism/ Islam/Judaism/Big Bang/moral philosophy etc. We were taught by a converted Buddhist and a born-again Christian. No emphasis was placed on Christianity at all. I thought this was standard in Britain, until I met a girl from the Emmanuel down the road who hadn't even been taught the Big Bang etc. (bit of a scandal in the news about it, turns out the Emmanuel was/is [i'm not sure now] run by an obscure Christian sect). It weirdly never occurred to me until recently that most people in Britain weren't atheists . .

[Prophet Tenebrae]

Britain is still the most secular nation in the world. At least we're still leading the world in something.

RS (we called it RE at my school) was pretty narrowly focused on Christanity, occasionally looking at Juadism and Islam. However the school was somewhat Christian in orientation. Needless to say that didn't help my scathing view of organised religion.

[novium]

[s]LonelyPilgrim wrote on 23:50, 30th Nov 2004:
Jayaker,

The argument about Christians recieving salvation regardless of their deeds... etc... is based on the idea that in order to recieve salvation you must acknowledge the magnitude of Christ's sacrifice for us, and by extension the magnitude of God's love.




Now see. that's something i've never agreed with, or seen the reason behind.
Surely a buddhist monk who has lived their life completely dedicated to helping others deserves heaven more than some born-again christian who was not really bad but was never extraordinarily good.

I believe we are judged by our hearts and deeds, not by membership lists.

[novium]

[s]harmless loony wrote on 20:21, 30th Nov 2004:
I recall an RS lesson I had a few years back at college - whereby the RS teacher (a devout Christian) told the class that a paedophile who calls himself Christian will get into heaven whereas a Muslim/Jew/Sikh etc wouldn't get anywhere near heaven even if they had spent all their life living on the straight and narrow and doing lots of good deeds.

Is that a common thought or is it restricted to certain sects in Christianity??


what does RS stand for?


ANd anyway, I think it is restricted to the fringes. They may be small groups but there are an awful lot of them. And they are very vocal. But I think the mainstream denominations do balance them out. They just don't scream and yell like the fringe groups.

[novium]

[s]jayaker wrote on 20:59, 30th Nov 2004:
Also, what does everyone else think about denominational schools (catholic, protestant, Islamic etc)? Is it a positive thing or does it breed intolerance and distrust?




I don't think they are bad on their own. I think they only breed intolerance and distrust when the people running the school are teaching that. Urgh. That doesn't quite cover it. Everyone's always talking about islam these days, so I'll do the same. While there definitely are islamic schools (state sponsered, in some cases) that do teach intolerance, hate, and distrust, I don't blame that on the fact that they are religious schools or the fact that they are islamic schools. The blame lies with the people in charge who want to push that stuff.

[novium]

[s]Prophet Tenebrae wrote on 00:22, 1st Dec 2004:
Britain is still the most secular nation in the world. At least we're still leading the world in something.

RS (we called it RE at my school) was pretty narrowly focused on Christanity, occasionally looking at Juadism and Islam. However the school was somewhat Christian in orientation. Needless to say that didn't help my scathing view of organised religion.




really? I thought it was the french.... they have the lowest percentage of of people saying they think religion is an important part of their life (10 percent, I believe it was) according to the Economist.

And they can be sort of rabidly secularist. Like that whole thing with the headscarves.

My impression is that the UK has balanced pretty well between freedom of religion and freedom from religion

[Oirish_Martin]

to be fair....to return to...someone else's statement: a paedophile who "calls himself" christian might not end up in heaven. It depends on whether god decides if theyre really sorry about what theyve done and would try and change. and i know some christians disagree with me on this one...but if some people of other faiths, be it islam, buddhism, whatever, doesn't verbally get an offer of joining christianity, then if they try and follow their conscience as best they can and regret, well, thatd be good enough for me. I believe that's what the bible says. and my mother, who isn't a theologian, but the way she told it to me....if we're all made in the image of god, then we would maybe react to injustice in a similar way to god. so if we think it's unfair that people who've never heard anything about god get automatically sent to hell, then god must think it unfair as well....so maybe there is hope for them after all.

but anyway...im only a fresher so i havent gotten to CU yet....but after a year of doing what was essentially evangelising, which im still convinced is not without purpose, but anyway...half the time i think it's more important that christianity is about not "being a shit" to others, as someone else here put it. denominational crap is just...silly.

and yes, as a christian, i think it's bloody hard trying not to piss god off when half of you is torn between doing whatever the hell you want and damn the consequences and everyone else, and between loving the god who helps you and just respecting yourself and others. so to anyone who thinks we should be doing better....we are only human.

[novium]

[s]Oirish_Martin wrote on 01:31, 1st Dec 2004:
to be fair....to return to...someone else's statement: a paedophile who "calls himself" christian might not end up in heaven. It depends on whether god decides if theyre really sorry about what theyve done and would try and change. and i know some christians disagree with me on this one...but if some people of other faiths, be it islam, buddhism, whatever, doesn't verbally get an offer of joining christianity, then if they try and follow their conscience as best they can and regret, well, thatd be good enough for me. I believe that's what the bible says. and my mother, who isn't a theologian, but the way she told it to me....if we're all made in the image of god, then we would maybe react to injustice in a similar way to god. so if we think it's unfair that people who've never heard anything about god get automatically sent to hell, then god must think it unfair as well....so maybe there is hope for them after all.



I would find it hard to believe that I am more willing to forgive or have more sympathy for people than God. Which is why I always think the people who say "if you don't join my sect, you are going to HELL" are silly.