"Abortion = Deliberate Killing = Murder" ?

[Manic23]

This is just a side issue/question, and not a statement of fact- but is adoption not always a readily made alternative? There are plenty of couples out there who are crying out for children but due to one reason or another cannot conceive. This just strikes me as a more than acceptable solution.

Although I am a christian, I see it as pointless throwing biblical quotes at those of pro-choice persuasion, and feel that it only serves to strengthen the beliefs of those in favour of abortion in the first place, as opposed to the original intention of converting the individual to a pro-life stance. The bible far from offers a solution to the question of abortion, it only convolutes the issue. Therefore I think it should be left out of such discussions.

Just my 2 pennys like

[Haunted]

Bring on eugenics

[Paul]

[s]Haunted wrote on 03:38, 1st Feb 2005:
Bring on eugenics


That was how the holocaust of WWII started!!!

But you have a point - the holocaust of abortion is with us and has already claimed more lives than military losses in war.

"Our new permissive abortion laws represent a complete about-face, a total rejection of the values of Western man. No longer will every human have the absolute right to live. Man will now be allowed to exist only if he measures up to certain standards of independence, physical perfection, or usefulness to others. This is only a repitition of what tool place in Nazi Germany. The program to purify the German race was a creation of physicians. The first gas chamber was designed by professors of psychiatry from twelve major German universities. As guinea pigs they selected members of their own race who were mentally ill, and children who were handicapped, until none were left. By 1945 the doctors had eliminated all the World War I aputee veterans. This hideous project, which was totally voluntary on the part of the physicians, all started when it became routine to eliminate a burden-some group of people (the unborn)." - The Facts of Life

[David Bean]

[s]Rilla wrote on 14:58, 31st Jan 2005:

All of these arguments are entirely academic and have absolutely NOTHING to do with what a real life situation is like.

It's the kind of pedantic arguments found in this thread that add to the shame and confusion women find themselves in.

Notice I say women - I'm sure males reading this will argue (as it has been argued before) that they should have a right to an opinion.

Frankly, it's not their body, therefore, any argument they present will only be an abstract/academic one and nothing to do with the fear/shock/loneliness/confusion a woman finds herself in.

What does that have to do with the price of fish? That's the first time I've heard it suggested that people shouldn't discuss a subject just because it has nothing to do with them!

(I might note that we already let non-hunters decide upon the legality of foxhunting and non-drug users to decide upon the legality of drug use, but considering I don't agree with either of those instances, I'll breeze quickly past it...)

By the way, I can't stick the SPUC. I was speaking to one of their leading members the other year; knowing that they campaigned against both abortion and euthanasia, I asked him if they also took a stand on other pro-life issues, such as the abolition of the death penalty. Oh no, he replied. We don't have any problem with that. So essentially, they're against killing everyone apart from the able-bodied and sentient! Says it all, really.

[hr]
"Fiat justicia ruat coelum (let justice be done though the heavens may fall)" - Judge James Horton (family motto)

[flarewearer]

[s]Paul wrote on 10:54, 1st Feb 2005:
[s]Haunted wrote on 03:38, 1st Feb 2005:[i]
Bring on eugenics


That was how the holocaust of WWII started!!!
[/i]

er... NO IT WASN'T!

[hr]
...We sing of landscape and memory and the urgency to do it now; in the street and in the fields...

[rae]

[s]Paul wrote on 10:54, 1st Feb 2005:
"Our new permissive abortion laws represent a complete about-face, a total rejection of the values of Western man. No longer will every human have the absolute right to live. Man will now be allowed to exist only if he measures up to certain standards of independence, physical perfection, or usefulness to others..." - [i]The Facts of Life

Well that's alright then. That's just men we're talking about. And just western ones at that. MAN does not equal HUMAN. WESTERN MAN does not equal all people. Come on! Try entering the 21st century and a little inclusive language while you're at it.

[Paul]

[s]rae wrote on 12:20, 1st Feb 2005:
Well that's alright then. That's just men we're talking about. And just western ones at that. MAN does not equal HUMAN. WESTERN MAN does not equal all people. Come on! Try entering the 21st century and a little inclusive language while you're at it.


MAN is inclusive language!!!

"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." - Genesis 1:27

"But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh." - Mark 10:6-8


[hr]
"Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches:
But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD." - Jeremiah 9:23-24

[exnihilo]

Somewhat missing the point there, but where's the surprise in that?

As to eugenics causing the Holocaust? Are you actually certifiably insane??

To everyone else: I'm sorry, by entering into argument with Paul on another thread, I may have inadvertently helped to give him the impression that simply quoting the Bible in every thread constitutes a definitive answer to any argument. My sincere apologies.

[Paul]

[s]exnihilo wrote on 12:57, 1st Feb 2005:
As to eugenics causing the Holocaust? Are you actually certifiably insane??



No - I researched it while attending a college.

I am surprised that you, as a Jew, are unaware of this.

Here are a few links for your education:

http://www.shoaheducation.com/pNEW.html

http://www.teacheroz.com/holocaust.htm

http://www.ziplink.net/~bright/papers/3rdreich.html

http://www.whateveristrue.com/holocaust/cor1.htm

A Google search on [holocaust eugenics] will throw up many more links.



[hr]
"Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches:
But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD." - Jeremiah 9:23-24

[Insight]

Since no-one seems to have said it - and I may be frightfully off the mark, but my own understanding of the beginnings Holocaust was based around the fact that it started as a prison campaign: keeping the undesirables away from the public eye and putting them to "good use".

This eventually lead to a purging of the peoples targetted due to over-population of the death & work camps, which could not be fully sustained. That combined with the panic arising in the Nazi hierarchy over their failing war effort.

Holocaust being the slaughter of millions by gas & shootings.

Despite how it may seem, I would've said that the eugenics aspect was the involuntary sterilisation of those within the community, to prevent them from passing on their genes.

[exnihilo]

[s]Paul wrote on 13:10, 1st Feb 2005:
No - I researched it while attending a college.

"A" college? That's somewhat vague, a Christian college perhaps? With an interest in denying the Holocaust?

I am surprised that you, as a Jew, are unaware of this.

I'm surprised that you can continue to be so arrogant and offensive.

Here are a few links for your education:

Thank you, my historical education is not wanting, I have two degrees in History and am reading for a PhD, but it's always fun to be patronised.

A Google search on [holocaust eugenics] will throw up many more links.

Doubtless, I prefer to consult libraries and texts in which i have some confidence.

In short, the Holocaust was a concerted attempt to wipe out the Jews. I am aware that gays, gypsies, the disabled, etc also died but anyone who knows anything about the period knows that nazi propoganda, vitriol and effort was primarily directed at Jews. Why? Because of eugenics? Hardly. That would imply that only 'ethnic' Jews were killed and the ones who had converted, for example, spared. This was not so. The Jews were targeted because, for centuries, they were a focus of hatred throughout Europe, at the instigation, and with the connivance and approval of the Church. All Hitler and his Nazis did was bring to the fore an already simmering and generations old irrational hatred of the Jews and a need to find a scapegoat for Germany's failure in the First World War and subsequent economic collapse - both of which were incompatible with the notion of German superiority. Ergo, someone betrayed them.

Another apology - to the people whose thread has been hijacked by this discussion, but I really cannot sit back and watch such lies and such personal affronts go uncorrected.

[The Truth]

Insite is correct to the most part. The Holocaust was actually started as a political tool used by the nazi regime to use and fuel already bristling anti-Semitist feelings within Germany. Although eugenics was an ideal of the nazi party as well, it is an entirely seperate issue.

All withstanding, the real question is what eugenics and the holocaust has to do with abortion? (the answer is nothing, for all you who are stumped)
[hr]
May Christ give you the grace to pick up your scattered wits.
-St. Jerome

[penfold]

[i]No - I researched it while attending a college[i]

Tou have a degree now thats just fucking scary

[Paul]

[s]exnihilo wrote on 13:25, 31st Jan 2005:
The key to that passage is the mischief following. Following to whom? If the "fruit" or unborn child/foetus has been miscarried already no further mischief can follow to it. Therefore, the only person to whom mischief could follow (sickness, sterility, death) is the mother and the penalty for the person who caused it should be meted accordingly.


Your Rabbis don't agree with you.

"Liberal, Conservative and Orthodox rabbis at the meeting agreed that
Jewish law forbids abortion unless the mother's life is at stake, not her
health as well, as is the sentiment among many pro-abortion groups. "But in every other situation," when there is no such mortal threat, abortion is prohibited," said Rabbi David Novak, a Conservative clergyman teaching at the University of Toronto." - http://www.whateveristrue.com/holocaust ... rolife.htm


[hr]
"Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches:
But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD." - Jeremiah 9:23-24

[exnihilo]

Thanks for, yet again, ignoring my responses. However, to answer your post, if you knew anything at all about Judaism, you would know that there is no central authority which can impose it's will on any other Rabbi. That council spoke only for the people who were there and for nobody else. They are not "my" Rabbis, especially as you don't even know what strand of Judaism I follow!

Aside from which, I am not bound by the word of any Rabbi, and if I choose to interpret that passage differently it is my right. Yes, I am Jewish, but I am also a human being and therefore will use my own judgement, compassion and free will and form my own opinions - I am not absolutely ruled by a book. Perhaps there's a lesson in that for you?

I also can't help noticing that the 'report' of what was decided is taken from a fundameentalist Christian site and that the conference was of pro life supporters. How odd that it should then agree completely with your beliefs!

[Manic23]

[s]exnihilo wrote on 13:42, 1st Feb 2005:

"A" college? That's somewhat vague, a Christian college perhaps? With an interest in denying the Holocaust?

Are you implying that Christians tend to deny the holocaust? I sincerely hope not.

On a side note; The Nazi Policy of Eugenics aimed for the superiority of a pure Aryan race, and the prevention of untermenschen spreading their genes any further. Therefore the Holocaust can be seen as a result of Eugenics, for what better way is there of preventing a race from increasing than by killing them?

Anyway this has sweet fuck all to do with abortion, so can we just stick to the topic at hand?

EDITED FOR FORMATTING AND SPELLING MISTAKES

[exnihilo]

[s]Manic23 wrote on 14:49, 1st Feb 2005:
Are you implying that Christians tend to deny the holocaust? I sincerely hope not.

Certainly not, I am suggesting, however, that it is in the interest of some groups of Christians to deny the Holocaust. I am not, contrary to how my argument with Paul is making me appear, a militant Jew, but it is the case that many people would like to minimise the effect of Nazism on Jews for their own reasons.

Therefore the Holocaust can be seen as a result of Eugenics, for what better way is there of preventing a race from increasing than by killing them?

Misses the point. The point is not that people were killed in the interest of creating a master race, the point is why certain people were deemed incompatible with a master race - which is what I answered and which is what made Eugenics seem like a good idea to the Nazis. You're putting the cart before the horse looking at it that way.

Anyway this has sweet fuck all to do with abortion, so can we just stick to the topic at hand?

I tried to in my last post, and I was confronted with 'evidence' attacking the Jews from this excitingly unbiased 'pro-life' site: http://www.whateveristrue.com/holocaust/ which likens abortion to the Holocaust. Should I have ignored that?

[Manic23]

[s]exnihilo wrote on 14:57, 1st Feb 2005:

Certainly not, I am suggesting, however, that it is in the interest of some groups of Christians to deny the Holocaust.

Apparently Mel Gibson's father is one of those. He belongs to a group that refuses to forgive the Jews for Killing Jesus, and, of course, they deny the holocaust. I am fully aware that such groups exist, I just thought the wording of your post was implying something more widespread in Christianity.

[Paul]

[s]exnihilo wrote on 14:57, 1st Feb 2005:
I tried to in my last post, and I was confronted with 'evidence' attacking the Jews from this excitingly unbiased 'pro-life' site: http://www.whateveristrue.com/holocaust/ which likens abortion to the Holocaust. Should I have ignored that?


Excuse me ?! Where is the attack on the Jews?

"There exists a frightening correlation between the American holocaust of abortion and the NAZI holocaust of World War II infamy."

"At the Nuremberg war crimes trial, chief prosecutor for England, Sir Hartley Shawcross, stated that the number of people killed in the
concentration camps was 12 million, half of whom were Jews."

""All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke"

"There have been approximately 44 million abortions in America since Roe Vs Wade."

All of the above quotes are taken from that link. None attacks the Jews! Are you not being just a little paranoid?


[hr]
"Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches:
But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD." - Jeremiah 9:23-24

[rae]

[s]Paul wrote on 12:43, 1st Feb 2005:

MAN is inclusive language!!!

"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." - Genesis 1:27

"But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh." - Mark 10:6-8

etc etc


Not wanting to get off topic but i do want to point out that you have in no way answered my argument. You've just thrown out bible verses that actually would substantiate MY argument seeing as they specify MAN and then separately WOMAN (or wife). Try and engage rather than just reacting with your "answers".