A question for the unionists

[DrAlex]

So if you don't have to show your passport at the border, I can only assume that the border won't really be controlled the way most (all?) borders are. If the queen is also going to remain the head of state, what exactly IS Scottish Independence going to do? Fly a few more Saltires? Form their own parliament and reform the NHS into a Scottish variant? Attach the word "Scotland" to tv channels, newspapers and the New Health Service (NHS)?

Oh wait.

[hr]

"Listen to DrAlex."-Polli
http://standrews.facebook.com/profile.php?id=37100343

[switchskier]

I do not believe that the Scottish economy would benefit from becoming independent from teh UK. All it would do is add another set of borders for goods and resources to cross at a time when the trend and motivation is to move away from protectionist policies.
THe SNP are in favour of an EU constitution and if I may be very simplistic it seems mildly contradictory to demand independence for a 'nation' and then give away its sovereignty. Here there is also the contradiction in teh SNP claiming to stand for scottish fishing rights. Smal countries may be able to negotiate a deal but a deal means you have to give something up and teh weaker your barganing position the more you have to give up in general.
In response to Iain's point on stimulating teh economy, this is a short term argument that may in the long run be harmful to a scottish economy. At best its ill-informed at worst its stupid. Economies have a natural equilibrium and unless changes are made to the basic elements of it economies can't exceed their best rate of growth without dangerous inflationary pressures.

[McK]

There would be no borders, one presumes, since we would remain under the aegis of the EU, so 'switchskier' it would have no effect on the free movement of goods and services, which are the cornerstone of our European Union.

I agree, though, on the broad point that independence is not so relevant thesedays when we are part of a larger entity. By the way, even as a unionist I am all for an EU constitution -- it sews up the many loose ends we have at the moment.

[ascii]

Quoting DrAlex from 13:32, 28th Nov 2006
So if you don't have to show your passport at the border, I can only assume that the border won't really be controlled the way most (all?) borders are. If the queen is also going to remain the head of state, what exactly IS Scottish Independence going to do? Fly a few more Saltires? Form their own parliament and reform the NHS into a Scottish variant? Attach the word "Scotland" to tv channels, newspapers and the New Health Service (NHS)?

Oh wait.

The queen is head of state of New Zealand, Australia and many more independent countries, it's silly to suggest keeping the monarchy renders independence pointless.

As for passports, do you need a passport to go from Ireland to the UK, or from Portugal to Spain to France to Germany to Switzerland? No. So why would there need to be passport checks on the Scottish border? To stop the smuggling of haggis and whisky?

[Malcolm]

I'll reply to ascii anyway, because I read what was there before it got deleted.

I'm not totally anti-Scottish, I'm just not anti-English; I'm just sick to the back teeth of the unjustified England bashing that seems to be coming more and more commonplace these days.

And I'm against independence because of this - it would just let those anti-English cretins win, and the SNP have yet to offer any conclusive, concrete proof that independence is a good thing. I'm basically a unionist, and that's my take on things.

Would we keep Flower of Scotland as the national anthem? Even the North Korean anthem doesn't take a dig at foreign countries and that's saying something.

[hr]

"Moskau, Moskau,
Wirf die Gläser auf die Wand
Russland ist ein schönes Land
o-ho ho ho ho ho, hey!"

[ascii]

Quoting Malcolm from 13:44, 28th Nov 2006
I'll reply to ascii anyway, because I read what was there before it got deleted.

I'm not totally anti-Scottish, I'm just not anti-English; I'm just sick to the back teeth of the unjustified England bashing that seems to be coming more and more commonplace these days.

And I'm against independence because of this - it would just let those anti-English cretins win, and the SNP have yet to offer any conclusive, concrete proof that independence is a good thing. I'm basically a unionist, and that's my take on things.

Would we keep Flower of Scotland as the national anthem? Even the North Korean anthem doesn't take a dig at foreign countries and that's saying something.

Malcolm, your posts often give me the impression that you have a strong dislike not just for the SNP but for Scotland itself. Your comment about Edinburgh being the best bit of Scotland because its anglified sticks in my head.

I find your attitude towards Scotland really depressing. However, me trying to take the piss doesn't help anything, so I deleted the above post. I don't think I caused you any offence, I hope not.

[McK]

Quoting Malcolm from 13:44, 28th Nov 2006

And I'm against independence because of this - it would just let those anti-English cretins win, and the SNP have yet to offer any conclusive, concrete proof that independence is a good thing. I'm basically a unionist, and that's my take on things.

Would we keep Flower of Scotland as the national anthem? Even the North Korean anthem doesn't take a dig at foreign countries and that's saying something.

[hr]

"Moskau, Moskau,
Wirf die Gläser auf die Wand
Russland ist ein schönes Land
o-ho ho ho ho ho, hey!"

Malcolm, you let the anti-English cretins win by leaving (or threatening to leave) Scotland.

I hate Flower of Scotland too. Not just because of its anti-English sentiment which moors Scottish identity firmly in the past but because it's a godawful folk song from the 60s (I think); Scotland can do far better if it wants its own anthem. (P.s. I really dislike God Save the Queen as well.)

Also, some of the attitudes on here remind me of something my uncle used to say: 'noone does self-loathing quite like the Scots' (he was a Glasweigian). I remember thinking this when I was talking to a pro-independence voter, who is a plumber in Cupar. We had a long debate about it over several drinks. After a long, impassioned speech about independence, countering my predictable unionist points, he sluured his conclusion: "Anyway, this country is a shit heap and I'll be out of here before long".

[jequirity]

Scottish Independance = Even more red tape

Bugger that for a laugh.

[hr]

LEEERRRROYYYY!!!!

Andrew W K Day 9th of May

[exnihilo]

David Aaronovitch in the Times...

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0, ... 15,00.html

[Colin]

Quoting ascii from 13:44, 28th Nov 2006

The queen is head of state of New Zealand, Australia and many more independent countries, it's silly to suggest keeping the monarchy renders independence pointless.

As for passports, do you need a passport to go from Ireland to the UK, or from Portugal to Spain to France to Germany to Switzerland? No. So why would there need to be passport checks on the Scottish border? To stop the smuggling of haggis and whisky?

So you suggest that Scots would no longer have passports. Fine. All planning on staying at home forever? As a Scot currently living abroad (Chile, to be precise) on a UK passport, I do rather think that passports would be required. I hope Scotland would build an embassy here for me.

The dealing with the rest of the world is something that the nationalist argument over looks. It is so obsessed with being away from England that it forgets that it is through being part of the UK that we interact with the rest of the world. And being part of one of the world's major powers is a major advantage in this.

Also, a side issue. I am currently employed at a major scientific institute, which the UK pays a set amount of its science budget to be a member of. This allows the Scottish universities, including St Andrews, access to world class facilities. Does nationalist accounting include Scotland continuing to pay its share of such international bills, which currently come from the UK pot of money and not from the Scottish budget? Science funding is only one example of such things.

[McK]

Quoting exnihilo from 15:56, 28th Nov 2006
David Aaronovitch in the Times...

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0, ... 15,00.html

Thank you for the link, it's an interesting opinion piece.

[TCT]

Quoting Colin from 16:18, 28th Nov 2006

Quoting ascii from 13:44, 28th Nov 2006

The queen is head of state of New Zealand, Australia and many more independent countries, it's silly to suggest keeping the monarchy renders independence pointless.

As for passports, do you need a passport to go from Ireland to the UK, or from Portugal to Spain to France to Germany to Switzerland? No. So why would there need to be passport checks on the Scottish border? To stop the smuggling of haggis and whisky?

So you suggest that Scots would no longer have passports. Fine. All planning on staying at home forever? As a Scot currently living abroad (Chile, to be precise) on a UK passport, I do rather think that passports would be required. I hope Scotland would build an embassy here for me.

No, that is not what he is saying at all. Clearly you have (wilfully) misread ascii's post, or you are just ignorant. He is talking about the lack of border control, not a 'no passports' Scotland where noone ever leaves: we are not, after all, the USA.

[Icarus]

The problem with nationalists is that they have so inexorably linked their sense of self-identity with the exercising of political sovereignty. Yet English people are perfectly happy to embrace their English identity while still being able to think of themselves as also being British. Northern Irish Protestants are perfectly happy to embrace their identity and still think of themselves as British. Human beings are perfectly capable of having multiple levels of identity, but Scottish nationalists seem to have convinced themselves that in order for them to have a Scottish identity, in order to be able to think of themselves as being Scottish, they need to have independence. Every argument I've ever heard any Scottish nationalist make for independence seems to stem from this one fact. They don't want independence based on any rational grounds, they just want independence. Someone on another thread said it best, the nationalists seem to be acting out of a misplaced grievance. They've made the idea of independence a politically salient point, and all their arguments flow from this one desire.

I think the level of dispute on this thread reflects the fact that these arguments they then make to justify independence on rational grounds are far from conclusive. I've yet to see anyone convincingly show that the Scottish economy would be better served by independence, or that Scotland is losing out drastically in the world because it is a member of the United Kingdom. The only thing nationalists have ever been able to convince me of is that they've got a chip on their shoulder, and their idea of what it is to be Scottish has in their mind become inexorably married to the idea that because you're Scottish you somehow both need and deserve independence.

In short, to call yourself Scottish you don't have to stop calling yourself British as well. They're not mutually exclusive, and nobody's shown convincingly that Scotland is losing out by being part of the United Kingdom.


(Edited because I still can't spell)

[Odysseus]

Quoting Malcolm from 13:44, 28th Nov 2006
I'll reply to ascii anyway, because I read what was there before it got deleted.

I'm not totally anti-Scottish, I'm just not anti-English; I'm just sick to the back teeth of the unjustified England bashing that seems to be coming more and more commonplace these days.

And I'm against independence because of this - it would just let those anti-English cretins win, and the SNP have yet to offer any conclusive, concrete proof that independence is a good thing. I'm basically a unionist, and that's my take on things.

Would we keep Flower of Scotland as the national anthem? Even the North Korean anthem doesn't take a dig at foreign countries and that's saying something.

[hr]

Only in this country would the term INDEPENDENCE be seen by anyone as dangerous, or stupid. If you actually do research, or approach it with an open mind, you'll see that there are arguements on both sides, it just so happens, in my opinion, the stronger ones are pro-Independent.

As I see it, an Independent Scotland would
a) Change its economy from public to private sector fairly easily, see the likes of the Trump investment
b) Wouldn't participate in ill-advised, US-lead wars in far-flung countries
c) Would, if anything, help to quell any Anti-English feeling (of course, an englishman has NEVER said a bad word about a Scot eh? Face it, we BOTH do messed up stuff to each other, most people seem to view Scots as friendly anyway - And if you think racial tensions are bad, you could cite most countries as an example) And to be honest, racism is a problem everywhere, its cheap and offensive to blame the Nationalists.

The Unionists on this thread just seem to say 'I'm British, Scotland is too puny to survive' - Without actually providing any substantial arguments. These people must be fairly close-minded. Britain was created as an economic union - We were never one people. The union was beneficial for a while, but we've been in the doldrums for too long.

As for Alex Salmond, people can brand him as smug or whatever, but at least he seems to have some principals, and isn't a liar like Blair, a posterboy like Cameron, or a relic like Campbell.

[hr]

Walk into the bright lights of sorrow, oh drink a bit of wine and we both might go tommorow, my love...

[McK]

Quoting Odysseus from 17:22, 28th Nov 2006

Quoting Malcolm from 13:44, 28th Nov 2006
I'll reply to ascii anyway, because I read what was there before it got deleted.

I'm not totally anti-Scottish, I'm just not anti-English; I'm just sick to the back teeth of the unjustified England bashing that seems to be coming more and more commonplace these days.

And I'm against independence because of this - it would just let those anti-English cretins win, and the SNP have yet to offer any conclusive, concrete proof that independence is a good thing. I'm basically a unionist, and that's my take on things.

Would we keep Flower of Scotland as the national anthem? Even the North Korean anthem doesn't take a dig at foreign countries and that's saying something.

[hr]

Only in this country would the term INDEPENDENCE be seen by anyone as dangerous, or stupid. If you actually do research, or approach it with an open mind, you'll see that there are arguements on both sides, it just so happens, in my opinion, the stronger ones are pro-Independent.

As I see it, an Independent Scotland would
a) Change its economy from public to private sector fairly easily, see the likes of the Trump investment
b) Wouldn't participate in ill-advised, US-lead wars in far-flung countries
c) Would, if anything, help to quell any Anti-English feeling (of course, an englishman has NEVER said a bad word about a Scot eh? Face it, we BOTH do messed up stuff to each other, most people seem to view Scots as friendly anyway - And if you think racial tensions are bad, you could cite most countries as an example) And to be honest, racism is a problem everywhere, its cheap and offensive to blame the Nationalists.

The Unionists on this thread just seem to say 'I'm British, Scotland is too puny to survive' - Without actually providing any substantial arguments. These people must be fairly close-minded. Britain was created as an economic union - We were never one people. The union was beneficial for a while, but we've been in the doldrums for too long.

As for Alex Salmond, people can brand him as smug or whatever, but at least he seems to have some principals, and isn't a liar like Blair, a posterboy like Cameron, or a relic like Campbell.

[hr]

Walk into the bright lights of sorrow, oh drink a bit of wine and we both might go tommorow, my love...

You will regret those words about Salmond. I can all but guarantee it. Pretty much every opposition leader who paints him/herself as lily white ends up covered in muck at the end -- just look at Blair.

I don't think this thread has done the unionist cause justice. I tried, and Iain never really responded to my assertions about the EU.

As for quelling anti-English sentiment, get real. You cannot change a far-reaching mindset by an opportunistic political change. To that extent, I agree with David Aaronovitch's article in the Times.

So, Odysseus, unionists are as open or closed-minded as you nationalists, we just disagree, that's all.

[DrAlex]

Quoting TCT from 16:35, 28th Nov 2006
He is talking about the lack of border control, not a 'no passports' Scotland where noone ever leaves: we are not, after all, the USA.

Clearly not, otherwise the Nationalists may have realised that dividing a country in two doesn't work out so well.

[hr]

"Listen to DrAlex."-Polli
http://standrews.facebook.com/profile.php?id=37100343

[exnihilo]

But we would, presumably have to turn in our existing passports and be issued - or reapply for - new ones?

[Odysseus]

Quoting McK from 17:27, 28th Nov 2006

So, Odysseus, unionists are as open or closed-minded as you nationalists, we just disagree, that's all.

At least Iain seems to bring proper arguements into the debate, rather than Malcolm and Flarewearer who just say 'I'm British, end of,' - Doesn't seem like a logical or intelligent arguement to me. It just seems like people have been brainwashed into following a psuedo-cultural identity. This Union does not serve my 'region' and as such, I want my 'region' to leave it - That doesn't mean I harbour any dislike of anyone else within the union.

Still, we're a long way away from the May elections and I'm pretty sure the SNP have been in a position like this before without doing anything. Though people should think about this :- The Conservatives are disliked intensely and their ideology isn't strongly followed in Scotland. New Labour will only get votes from those with the 'all my life' mentality. I view the Lib-Dems as a pansy protest vote who'll never come to power. As for the SSP, well, I don't need to comment. That leaves the SNP as the only party, in my view, with any credibility left (Granted, politics can change in an instant) so the possibility of Scottish independence is REAL. The fact that the media and new labour are too busy belittling the SNP rather than showing us how they can take Scotland forward proves they are worried about losing power.



[hr]

Walk into the bright lights of sorrow, oh drink a bit of wine and we both might go tommorow, my love...

[Odysseus]

Quoting exnihilo from 17:35, 28th Nov 2006
But we would, presumably have to turn in our existing passports and be issued - or reapply for - new ones?

This is just one issue - I don't think Scotland could just be voted into being independent overnight - We'd need to set a deadline and have people working out these (relatively minor) problems.

[hr]

Walk into the bright lights of sorrow, oh drink a bit of wine and we both might go tommorow, my love...

[Colin]

Quoting TCT from 16:35, 28th Nov 2006

Quoting Colin from 16:18, 28th Nov 2006

Quoting ascii from 13:44, 28th Nov 2006

The queen is head of state of New Zealand, Australia and many more independent countries, it's silly to suggest keeping the monarchy renders independence pointless.

As for passports, do you need a passport to go from Ireland to the UK, or from Portugal to Spain to France to Germany to Switzerland? No. So why would there need to be passport checks on the Scottish border? To stop the smuggling of haggis and whisky?

So you suggest that Scots would no longer have passports. Fine. All planning on staying at home forever? As a Scot currently living abroad (Chile, to be precise) on a UK passport, I do rather think that passports would be required. I hope Scotland would build an embassy here for me.

No, that is not what he is saying at all. Clearly you have (wilfully) misread ascii's post, or you are just ignorant. He is talking about the lack of border control, not a 'no passports' Scotland where noone ever leaves: we are not, after all, the USA.

OK, I realise that he was only talking about border controls with relation to England, but I was making a point: independence is about more than how we relate to England, it is about how we relate to the rest of the world. And I think that the nationalist movement fails to think about Scotland's place in the wider world, it just wants to be away from England.

Feel free to respond to the rest of my post, where I raise serious points, I promise not to use sarcasm in any further arguments.