An open letter to religious people

[munchingfoo]

You can't trust those sorts of surveys. Its to easy to ask the question "What is Easter for?", then get the answer "Its when Jesus died and rose from the dead", and conclude - the person believes Jesus rose from the dead.

I would only trust it if it said

"Do you believe there was a man called Jesus?"
"If so, do you think he rose from the dead?"

[hr]

"The entirety of these definitions lie outside the gamut of the sRGB color space — such a pure color cannot be represented using RGB primaries. The color swatch to the right is a desaturated approximation, created by taking the centroid of the standard definition and moving it towards the D65 white point, until it meets the sRGB gamut triangle."

[Haunted]

Sounds more interesting than the 'Friends' poll

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Now with 100% more corn

[Anon.]

Quoting Haunted from 14:47, 31st Jul 2008

Quoting Andy Monkey B from 01:54, 31st Jul 2008
secondly, Jesus, as far as I'm aware was the only person in history to predict that he would rise from the dead, and preceded to do so. People can lie, but they cant do the impossible unless they're from God.

Emphasis added. There is a reasonable amount of evidence to suggest that nothing can survive it's own death. Feel free to prove this wrong however.

Erm, isn't that why it's called a miracle? Because it can't happen. That's the point.

And it's spelled "proceeded" Mr Monkey B

[Anon.]

Quoting macgamer from 12:40, 31st Jul 2008
Let me remind you that Jesus didn't write a book he founded a Church.

I thought Jesus just told people how to live their lives, and then other people wrote it down. St Peter founded the Church.

I always thought it was a bit unfortunate for Roman Catholics that "RC" sounds a bit like "arsy". And "Christian" in French sounds like "cretin"

[Haunted]

Quoting Anon. from 18:44, 31st Jul 2008
Erm, isn't that why it's called a miracle? Because it can't happen. That's the point.

Miracle
–noun
1. an effect or extraordinary event in the physical world that surpasses all known human or natural powers and is ascribed to a supernatural cause
2. such an effect or event manifesting or considered as a work of God.
3. a wonder; marvel.

A miracle is something that cannot possibly be explained naturally and must therefore necessarily have a supernatural origin.

Things that can't happen, don't.

[hr]

Now with 100% more corn

[Anon.]

Quoting Frank from 16:50, 29th Jul 2008

I much prefer the Epicurus poster.


[hr]

That's not concluding that there is no God, that's just concluding that if there is a God He must be malevolent.

[Anon.]

Quoting Haunted from 18:52, 31st Jul 2008
A miracle is something that cannot possibly be explained naturally and must therefore necessarily have a supernatural origin.

Or the person trying to explain just doesn't know enough.

[Haunted]

I added "possibly" in that sentence to cover for incredulity.

It is also impossible to know whether something that did happen can ever be explained. Some would argue that miracles cannot possibly exist because they logically disprove themselves. If something happens within the natural world then it must necessarily itself be natural since nature is everything (at least here let us define it as such). If it's natural then it's not supernatural then it's not a miracle. The only reason gods/ghosts/gelgameks are deemed "supernatural" is because they don't exist (read: have never been credibly observed to exist)

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Now with 100% more corn

[Delts]

Haitian priest resurrect people frequently and use them as zombie slaves. They do it by poisoning the person with blowfish so that they appear dead.

Not a miracle and not beyond the realm of impossibility for Jesus to have done something similar with another poison.

[hr]

Quotes: For when you can think of nothing to say yourself.

[Andy Monkey B]

Quoting Delts from 00:22, 1st Aug 2008
Haitian priest resurrect people frequently and use them as zombie slaves. They do it by poisoning the person with blowfish so that they appear dead.

Not a miracle and not beyond the realm of impossibility for Jesus to have done something similar with another poison.

I mean to say more sometime, I just dont have time to read the whole thread! (apologies for the spelling mistake)

If Jesus had faked his own death, took a poison, then was nailed to a cross and stabbed in the side in front of hundreds of people and professional executioners, put in a tomb for 3 days without food or water, wrapped in tight bandages, then he must have somehow managed to wake himself up, roll back a massive stone, overpower the roman guards and wander the countryside meeting his friends. Was he not in need of medical attention? And why, after ensuring that hundreds of people will devote their lives to worshiping him did he disappear 40 days later? If I had gone through all that (crucifixion is VERY nasty!) I would at least stick around to enjoy the benefits for the rest of my life.

On miracles, not quite getting into the semantics of it, sorry. But lets just agree that people coming back from the dead (as in being dead for three days, then being alive again in every sense of the word), cannot happen naturally. So if it happened to Jesus (and he predicted it), would it not be reasonable to assume that there is a God?

[novium]

You're always doing this. Not many mainstream christian denominations believe that everyone else is going to hell.

I know that pretending that the fundamentalist fringe is the end all and be all of christianity makes an excellent strawman, but please. If you aren't going to bother with a real argument, why bother typing it out?

Quoting Haunted from 14:22, 31st Jul 2008

It is a bad person that does not warn others of danger.

Because it's real? You know this place exists and you see people marching towards it everyday and you do nothing? How much consolation will you have when you're upstairs praising god 24/7 to know that most of the human race including who knows how many friends and loved ones are being tortured instead and you could've helped them?

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Now with 100% more corn

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Neither the storms of crisis, nor the breezes of ambition could ever divert him, either by hope or by fear, from the course that he had chosen

[Haunted]

Quoting novium from 05:53, 1st Aug 2008
You're always doing this. Not many mainstream christian denominations believe that everyone else is going to hell.

I know that pretending that the fundamentalist fringe is the end all and be all of christianity makes an excellent strawman, but please. If you aren't going to bother with a real argument, why bother typing it out?

Bullshit. There is nothing fundamentalist about a belief in hell. Christian theology is very specific about the consequences of not accepting jesus. Catholics, Anglicans, Baptists, Methodists and even Latter-day saints believe in hell. The catholics tried to wiggle out of the moral consequences of decreeing that unbaptised babies would go to hell with limbo or something, but I think they recently repealed that.

[hr]

Now with 100% more corn

[Haunted]

Quoting Andy Monkey B from 01:01, 1st Aug 2008
I mean to say more sometime, I just dont have time to read the whole thread! (apologies for the spelling mistake)

If Jesus had faked his own death, took a poison, then was nailed to a cross and stabbed in the side in front of hundreds of people and professional executioners, put in a tomb for 3 days without food or water, wrapped in tight bandages, then he must have somehow managed to wake himself up, roll back a massive stone, overpower the roman guards and wander the countryside meeting his friends. Was he not in need of medical attention? And why, after ensuring that hundreds of people will devote their lives to worshiping him did he disappear 40 days later? If I had gone through all that (crucifixion is VERY nasty!) I would at least stick around to enjoy the benefits for the rest of my life.

On miracles, not quite getting into the semantics of it, sorry. But lets just agree that people coming back from the dead (as in being dead for three days, then being alive again in every sense of the word), cannot happen naturally. So if it happened to Jesus (and he predicted it), would it not be reasonable to assume that there is a God?

I don't think your quite grasping the idea that not everything written down in those books actually happened word for word if at all. Would you start worshipping the divinity of Odin if I showed you the ancient stories written about him?

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Now with 100% more corn

[Delts]

Quoting Andy Monkey B from 01:01, 1st Aug 2008

Quoting Delts from 00:22, 1st Aug 2008
Haitian priest resurrect people frequently and use them as zombie slaves. They do it by poisoning the person with blowfish so that they appear dead.

Not a miracle and not beyond the realm of impossibility for Jesus to have done something similar with another poison.

I mean to say more sometime, I just dont have time to read the whole thread! (apologies for the spelling mistake)

If Jesus had faked his own death, took a poison, then was nailed to a cross and stabbed in the side in front of hundreds of people and professional executioners, put in a tomb for 3 days without food or water, wrapped in tight bandages, then he must have somehow managed to wake himself up, roll back a massive stone, overpower the roman guards and wander the countryside meeting his friends. Was he not in need of medical attention? And why, after ensuring that hundreds of people will devote their lives to worshiping him did he disappear 40 days later? If I had gone through all that (crucifixion is VERY nasty!) I would at least stick around to enjoy the benefits for the rest of my life.

On miracles, not quite getting into the semantics of it, sorry. But lets just agree that people coming back from the dead (as in being dead for three days, then being alive again in every sense of the word), cannot happen naturally. So if it happened to Jesus (and he predicted it), would it not be reasonable to assume that there is a God?

You don't need someone to wake up, as the poison disappears out of your system you regain consciousness. Whilst in a coma you need less food and water to survive, and it wouldn't be that miraculous to endure three days whilst in a coma, you wouldn't be in the best shape, but still survivable.
The being stabbed, it could have been a graze for all you know, but people survive wounds easily enough and it does state that it didn't kill him in the bible, so I think it's not that far a stretch of imagination that it is survivable.
The massive stone, he may of had helped which isn't mentioned (since then it wouldn't be a miracle!) or he may of had a basic knowledge of levers.
With regards to over powering guards, were they at the tomb? Did the bible state they were over powered? (I really don't know anything about any guards). If my assumptions are correct though then they just saw a zombie, I'm pretty sure they'd piss themselves and run away.
Surviving 40 days could be due to him dying from an infection due to the aforementioned stabbing, or he could of gotten fed up with the messiah lifestyle, retired and became a farmer or a hermit or something and not told anyone.

And no, I shall not agree based on the fact that at that time faking your own death isn't that hard. Three day comas are also perfectly natural even if he hadn't been poisoned and slipping into a coma due to crucification isn't that unlikely either.

[hr]

Quotes: For when you can think of nothing to say yourself.

[Cain]

Quoting Haunted from 18:32, 31st Jul 2008
Sounds more interesting than the 'Friends' poll

Why doesn't Jesus, the most powerful disciple, not simply eat the other 12?

[hr]

I hold an element of surprise

[LonelyPilgrim]

Quoting Delts from 12:13, 1st Aug 2008
Three day comas are also perfectly natural even if he hadn't been poisoned and slipping into a coma due to crucification isn't that unlikely either.

[hr]

Quotes: For when you can think of nothing to say yourself.

If you were to slip into a coma while being crucified you would die, unless you were almost immediately removed from the cross. Crucifiction killed people due to asphyxiation. Upon loosing consciousness, the body slumps forward in such a way that the victim is unable to breathe due to the diaphragm being constrained.

That's one of the reasons why a typical crucifiction (ie. with the hands bound and feet provided a platform to stand on, rather than with nails) could take days to kill someone - you survived for as long as you remained conscious and able to stand.

As far as I know, Jesus' crucifiction is the only account we have of the Roman's hastening the death by nailing the victim to the cross, and by using a spear to (supposedly) puncture the lung. The reason being, if I remember correctly, that Iudea was not a Roman province but rather a protectorate, and so executions had to be carried out in accordance with local law and custom. It was illegal in Iudea to execute someone on the Sabbath, and since Jesus was crucified the day before the Sabbath they had to make sure he was dead before nightfall. I suppose the same was true of the two thieves allegedly crucified with him.

So, could he have slipped into a coma, survived a wound meant to kill, and revived after three days of convalesence in a tomb? I suppose so, but it would have required either extraordinary luck and timing, or the complicity of his Roman executioners. Since it was Roman practice to leave victims on the cross for some time, to ensure their deaths... and since the Romans had absolutely nothing to gain by keeping this troublemaker alive, I think both possibilities are extremely unlikely.

[hr]

Man is free; yet we must not suppose that he is at liberty to do everything he pleases, for he becomes a slave the moment he allows his actions to be ruled by passion. --Giacomo Casanova

[LonelyPilgrim]

Quoting Cain from 15:21, 1st Aug 2008

Quoting Haunted from 18:32, 31st Jul 2008
Sounds more interesting than the 'Friends' poll

Why doesn't Jesus, the most powerful disciple, not simply eat the other 12?

[hr]

I hold an element of surprise

Cain, Cain, Cain, shame, shame, shame. The other 12 were apostles, not disciples. There were hundreds if not thousands of disciples. And Jesus was neither an apostle nor a disciple himself.

Besides, if he could make bread, fish, and wine appear from nowhere, why bother with eating people? It'd be bound to be messy, and counter-productive in the extreme.

[hr]

Man is free; yet we must not suppose that he is at liberty to do everything he pleases, for he becomes a slave the moment he allows his actions to be ruled by passion. --Giacomo Casanova

[Andy Monkey B]

was going to go to bed but I cant resist another post.

to follow up what LonelyPilgrim says, Jesus was first given 39 lashes with a whip tipped with metal bits, so basically had no flesh left whatsoever on his back (40 lashes was thought to be enough to kill a person, so 39 were routinely given to people before execution). He was then nailed to the cross, possibly for the reasons which LP describes. If he slumped into a coma, that would have killed him. Then his side was stabbed, (quick google search provided this link: https://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=343708). his heart was pierced and blood and water poured out, a symptom of death (and presumably also a cause if the victim was not already dead). These executioners were very experienced professionals as well, they knew exactly what they were doing.

upon regaining consciousness, escaping the tomb and scaring off the guards (who would have subsequently been caught and executed for abandoning their posts), he certainly would have been noticeably weak. If he had succumbed to an infection, word would have gotten out that he was dead, his disciples would have been disillusioned and the movement would have been abandoned (why die for something that you know is a lie?). If he 'retired', then why after 40 days? he went through a LOT in 3 years, and even more in the 3 days, to throw it all away so quickly. And it would also make him a liar. the stuff he said before his crucifixion certainly don't fit the profile of an evil man trying to start a cult of his own. And would there not be less painful ways of faking your own death? And what was in it for him? And why did he say things which drove people away from him?

in summary, assuming the witnesses who recorded what happened in the Bible did it correctly and honestly, the simplest explanation by far is that he miraculously rose from the dead. Trying to explain it away creates ridiculous speculation and huge unanswered questions, just what you accuse religion of!

Should we debate the reliability of the biblical account now? Or do you have more doubts about the crucifixion and/or resurrection?

[munchingfoo]

Quoting Andy Monkey B from 02:14, 2nd Aug 2008

in summary, assuming the witnesses who recorded what happened in the Bible did it correctly and honestly, the simplest explanation by far is that he miraculously rose from the dead. Trying to explain it away creates ridiculous speculation and huge unanswered questions, just what you accuse religion of!

Unless of course we simply claim that your assumption is flawed. May I assume that the world is flat, then infer that if I walk in one direction I will fall off the end?

Assumptions generally have to have some basis in fact, unless you are using the assumption to prove by contradiction.

[hr]

"The entirety of these definitions lie outside the gamut of the sRGB color space — such a pure color cannot be represented using RGB primaries. The color swatch to the right is a desaturated approximation, created by taking the centroid of the standard definition and moving it towards the D65 white point, until it meets the sRGB gamut triangle."

[creepy old man]

I think the defensive attitude of atheists is easily explained. It's really annoying when a Christian person makes it clear to you that they believe you are going to be eternally tortured in hell by their 'merciful' god, but you can't defend yourself or tell them that they are being offensive, otherwise you get accused of Christian-bashing. That was a long sentence. Anyways, this applies to religious non-Christians as well as atheists. No Jew, Buddhist, Hindu person or whatever has ever threatened me with being tortured eternally for not accepting their beliefs. It's fine for people to believe what they want, but the self-righteousness gets annoying.